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Adapt Freighter and Jump Freighter

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Matari Akiga
Doomheim
#661 - 2013-09-01 13:16:11 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
If cost was a balancing factor then we would have isk tanking. With isk tanking the richest people in the game would be able to pack the most expensive mods on to their ships & know that the poorer people would never be able to blow them up. This would destroy the balance of the game & is a terrible idea despite the preaching of the likes of people like Ripard Teg.

I'm talking purely in relation to ganking freighters. You can't ISK Tank a freighter because it has NO SLOTS.


A freighter costs over a billion isk. By your logic, it should take over a billion isk to kill it. This is why cost is not a balancing factor in game design.

By CCP's logic, when they were released it took about a billion isk to gank one. So I guess the answer to that is yes. That's how they were balanced when they were released. With dps creep that has dropped from about a billion to about 70 million.


And what will you say Infinity Ziona if I can do it for free? That's right not a single ISK spent? I will get a load on brand new characters all less than a day old in starter ships the only change would be that they have 2 civilian guns and see what we can do? would that finally prove that cost does not reflect performance of two ships with two completely unrelated roles?

When I started posting in this thread I thought people just didn't know better, now I think they are greedy and ignorant and want CCP to protect them from themselves.

You have been told how to make yourself less likely to be ganked, you have been told about the precautions you can take if you need to fill the ship.

I think this thread may have just made me become a ganker.

CCP dont need to change everything to suit your play style.

Improvise, adapt and overcome!
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#662 - 2013-09-01 13:18:06 UTC
*waits for Mr Byerley Eaq. to turn up and post his clueless claptrap*

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#663 - 2013-09-01 13:19:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Matari Akiga wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
If cost was a balancing factor then we would have isk tanking. With isk tanking the richest people in the game would be able to pack the most expensive mods on to their ships & know that the poorer people would never be able to blow them up. This would destroy the balance of the game & is a terrible idea despite the preaching of the likes of people like Ripard Teg.

I'm talking purely in relation to ganking freighters. You can't ISK Tank a freighter because it has NO SLOTS.


A freighter costs over a billion isk. By your logic, it should take over a billion isk to kill it. This is why cost is not a balancing factor in game design.

By CCP's logic, when they were released it took about a billion isk to gank one. So I guess the answer to that is yes. That's how they were balanced when they were released. With dps creep that has dropped from about a billion to about 70 million.


And what will you say Infinity Ziona if I can do it for free? That's right not a single ISK spent? I will get a load on brand new characters all less than a day old in starter ships the only change would be that they have 2 civilian guns and see what we can do? would that finally prove that cost does not reflect performance of two ships with two completely unrelated roles?

When I started posting in this thread I thought people just didn't know better, now I think they are greedy and ignorant and want CCP to protect them from themselves.

You have been told how to make yourself less likely to be ganked, you have been told about the precautions you can take if you need to fill the ship.

I think this thread may have just made me become a ganker.


Welcome to the darkside, we have cookies and complimentary tear receptacles.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#664 - 2013-09-01 13:21:02 UTC
Matari Akiga wrote:
I think this thread may have just made me become a ganker.


Send me mail if you want to go ganking sometime.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#665 - 2013-09-01 13:21:07 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
No they couldn't be ganked with cheap ships profitably. It took 20+ battleships when they were released. At plat insurance of 40 million isk that's 800 million just in insurance loss. Another 200 million in the gap between cost of hull and payout. Plus fitting.

It didn't. People may have done it that way which doesn't surprise me since Miniluv was the first group to refine the artform (also until about 18 months ago people were still using Battleships & stealth bombers to suicide gank Orca's, yet it wasn't a requirement to do so), but the DPS requirement to bring down a freighter certainly shows that 20+ battleships were not a requirement to kill a freighter in highsec.

If T1 cats being so effective encourages the ganking of freighters & is the cash cow that you seem to believe it is, then why aren't more people doing it?

Well of course you might have been able to do it with a fleet of cruisers or frigates but you'd have to have so many of them by the time you divided the loot each person would probably have lost isk. The other consideration is man-power. Not easy to get that many people willing to lose sec status, or even online at one time.

It comes down to what is profitable and reasonable.

At the moment, 70 million to blow up a ship worth between 1 billiion and 6 billion not including cargo is way too cheap, the price has dropped by more than 1000% while the cost to freighter pilot has remained the same and the risk of it happening has likely increased in proportion to amount cost to do it has dropped.

Personally I don't care nor feel sorry for the freighter pilots, don't harm me, I'm merely making an observation that since release the cost to gank a freighter has dropped massively and its likely time to have a look at that.

If they do, I don't care, if they don't I don't care. I don't use freighters.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#666 - 2013-09-01 13:22:11 UTC
Matari Akiga wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
If cost was a balancing factor then we would have isk tanking. With isk tanking the richest people in the game would be able to pack the most expensive mods on to their ships & know that the poorer people would never be able to blow them up. This would destroy the balance of the game & is a terrible idea despite the preaching of the likes of people like Ripard Teg.

I'm talking purely in relation to ganking freighters. You can't ISK Tank a freighter because it has NO SLOTS.


A freighter costs over a billion isk. By your logic, it should take over a billion isk to kill it. This is why cost is not a balancing factor in game design.

By CCP's logic, when they were released it took about a billion isk to gank one. So I guess the answer to that is yes. That's how they were balanced when they were released. With dps creep that has dropped from about a billion to about 70 million.


And what will you say Infinity Ziona if I can do it for free? That's right not a single ISK spent? I will get a load on brand new characters all less than a day old in starter ships the only change would be that they have 2 civilian guns and see what we can do? would that finally prove that cost does not reflect performance of two ships with two completely unrelated roles?

When I started posting in this thread I thought people just didn't know better, now I think they are greedy and ignorant and want CCP to protect them from themselves.

You have been told how to make yourself less likely to be ganked, you have been told about the precautions you can take if you need to fill the ship.

I think this thread may have just made me become a ganker.

You can do it for free. If it costs 70 million for you and your friends to blow one up. Considering salvage you should make a profit from it even if it drops nothing.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#667 - 2013-09-01 13:23:23 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Well of course you might have been able to do it with a fleet of cruisers or frigates but you'd have to have so many of them by the time you divided the loot each person would probably have lost isk. The other consideration is man-power. Not easy to get that many people willing to lose sec status, or even online at one time.

It comes down to what is profitable and reasonable.

At the moment, 70 million to blow up a ship worth between 1 billiion and 6 billion not including cargo is way too cheap, the price has dropped by more than 1000% while the cost to freighter pilot has remained the same and the risk of it happening has likely increased in proportion to amount cost to do it has dropped.

Personally I don't care nor feel sorry for the freighter pilots, don't harm me, I'm merely making an observation that since release the cost to gank a freighter has dropped massively and its likely time to have a look at that.

If they do, I don't care, if they don't I don't care. I don't use freighters.

You obviously do care, you're posting, badly might I add.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#668 - 2013-09-01 13:24:38 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
No they couldn't be ganked with cheap ships profitably. It took 20+ battleships when they were released. At plat insurance of 40 million isk that's 800 million just in insurance loss. Another 200 million in the gap between cost of hull and payout. Plus fitting.

It didn't. People may have done it that way which doesn't surprise me since Miniluv was the first group to refine the artform (also until about 18 months ago people were still using Battleships & stealth bombers to suicide gank Orca's, yet it wasn't a requirement to do so), but the DPS requirement to bring down a freighter certainly shows that 20+ battleships were not a requirement to kill a freighter in highsec.

If T1 cats being so effective encourages the ganking of freighters & is the cash cow that you seem to believe it is, then why aren't more people doing it?

Well of course you might have been able to do it with a fleet of cruisers or frigates but you'd have to have so many of them by the time you divided the loot each person would probably have lost isk. The other consideration is man-power. Not easy to get that many people willing to lose sec status, or even online at one time.

It comes down to what is profitable and reasonable.

At the moment, 70 million to blow up a ship worth between 1 billiion and 6 billion not including cargo is way too cheap, the price has dropped by more than 1000% while the cost to freighter pilot has remained the same and the risk of it happening has likely increased in proportion to amount cost to do it has dropped.

Personally I don't care nor feel sorry for the freighter pilots, don't harm me, I'm merely making an observation that since release the cost to gank a freighter has dropped massively and its likely time to have a look at that.

If they do, I don't care, if they don't I don't care. I don't use freighters.


I see the price to gank has dropped another 20 mil.
Dave Stark
#669 - 2013-09-01 13:25:02 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
No they couldn't be ganked with cheap ships profitably. It took 20+ battleships when they were released. At plat insurance of 40 million isk that's 800 million just in insurance loss. Another 200 million in the gap between cost of hull and payout. Plus fitting.

It didn't. People may have done it that way which doesn't surprise me since Miniluv was the first group to refine the artform (also until about 18 months ago people were still using Battleships & stealth bombers to suicide gank Orca's, yet it wasn't a requirement to do so), but the DPS requirement to bring down a freighter certainly shows that 20+ battleships were not a requirement to kill a freighter in highsec.

If T1 cats being so effective encourages the ganking of freighters & is the cash cow that you seem to believe it is, then why aren't more people doing it?

Well of course you might have been able to do it with a fleet of cruisers or frigates but you'd have to have so many of them by the time you divided the loot each person would probably have lost isk. The other consideration is man-power. Not easy to get that many people willing to lose sec status, or even online at one time.

It comes down to what is profitable and reasonable.

At the moment, 70 million to blow up a ship worth between 1 billiion and 6 billion not including cargo is way too cheap, the price has dropped by more than 1000% while the cost to freighter pilot has remained the same and the risk of it happening has likely increased in proportion to amount cost to do it has dropped.

Personally I don't care nor feel sorry for the freighter pilots, don't harm me, I'm merely making an observation that since release the cost to gank a freighter has dropped massively and its likely time to have a look at that.

If they do, I don't care, if they don't I don't care. I don't use freighters.


it might be too cheap; but it's irrelevant since cost isn't a balancing factor.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#670 - 2013-09-01 13:27:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
No they couldn't be ganked with cheap ships profitably. It took 20+ battleships when they were released. At plat insurance of 40 million isk that's 800 million just in insurance loss. Another 200 million in the gap between cost of hull and payout. Plus fitting.

It didn't. People may have done it that way which doesn't surprise me since Miniluv was the first group to refine the artform (also until about 18 months ago people were still using Battleships & stealth bombers to suicide gank Orca's, yet it wasn't a requirement to do so), but the DPS requirement to bring down a freighter certainly shows that 20+ battleships were not a requirement to kill a freighter in highsec.

If T1 cats being so effective encourages the ganking of freighters & is the cash cow that you seem to believe it is, then why aren't more people doing it?

Well of course you might have been able to do it with a fleet of cruisers or frigates but you'd have to have so many of them by the time you divided the loot each person would probably have lost isk. The other consideration is man-power. Not easy to get that many people willing to lose sec status, or even online at one time.

It comes down to what is profitable and reasonable.

At the moment, 70 million to blow up a ship worth between 1 billiion and 6 billion not including cargo is way too cheap, the price has dropped by more than 1000% while the cost to freighter pilot has remained the same and the risk of it happening has likely increased in proportion to amount cost to do it has dropped.

Personally I don't care nor feel sorry for the freighter pilots, don't harm me, I'm merely making an observation that since release the cost to gank a freighter has dropped massively and its likely time to have a look at that.

If they do, I don't care, if they don't I don't care. I don't use freighters.


I see the price to gank has dropped another 20 mil.

Based on your 28 cats at 2 million each = 56 million + the additional 5 cats instead of the talos at 10 mill, the correct number would obviously be 66 mill. Hasn't dropped at all.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Vizvig
Savage Blizzard
#671 - 2013-09-01 13:27:38 UTC
isboxer bring 20 chars to blow single freighter.
If freighter pilot is smart, he can bring just 5 logi alts and survive. I think it is fair enough.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#672 - 2013-09-01 13:29:01 UTC
Vizvig wrote:
isboxer bring 20 chars to blow single freighter.
If freighter pilot is smart, he can bring just 5 logi alts and survive. I think it is fair enough.

Lol so to use a freighter, one has to pay for 6 accounts? that's fair? Does he need to get 6 computers too or should he invest in a mainframe...

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Dave Stark
#673 - 2013-09-01 13:33:44 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Vizvig wrote:
isboxer bring 20 chars to blow single freighter.
If freighter pilot is smart, he can bring just 5 logi alts and survive. I think it is fair enough.

Lol so to use a freighter, one has to pay for 6 accounts? that's fair? Does he need to get 6 computers too or should he invest in a mainframe...


and it's fair that a guy ganking a freighter needs 20 or more?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#674 - 2013-09-01 13:34:26 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Quote:


Based on your 28 cats at 2 million each = 56 million + the additional 5 cats instead of the talos at 10 mill, the correct number would obviously be 66 mill. Hasn't dropped at all.


Im guessing you saw one guy with meta 0 guns on a km with lot of unknowns and just assumed we dont fit t2 or higher meta weapons.

Hell even if you were right thats still 70 mil more than it used to be and requires 20 more pilots.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#675 - 2013-09-01 13:37:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Quote:


Based on your 28 cats at 2 million each = 56 million + the additional 5 cats instead of the talos at 10 mill, the correct number would obviously be 66 mill. Hasn't dropped at all.


Im guessing you saw one guy with meta 0 guns on a km with lot of unknowns and just assumed we dont fit t2 or higher meta weapons.

Hell even if you were right thats still 70 mil more than it used to be and requires 20 more pilots.

So you're saying that when battleships were used, it paid back all the cost of insurance, the cost of the hull, the cost of the fitting... we both know that's completely untrue.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#676 - 2013-09-01 13:43:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Infinity Ziona wrote:

So you're saying that when battleships were used, it paid back all the cost of insurance, the cost of the hull, the cost of the fitting... we both know that's completely untrue.
I'm guessing a large stockpile of ships and/or a SRP, because that's how organised people work.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#677 - 2013-09-01 13:43:58 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Quote:


Based on your 28 cats at 2 million each = 56 million + the additional 5 cats instead of the talos at 10 mill, the correct number would obviously be 66 mill. Hasn't dropped at all.


Im guessing you saw one guy with meta 0 guns on a km with lot of unknowns and just assumed we dont fit t2 or higher meta weapons.

Hell even if you were right thats still 70 mil more than it used to be and requires 20 more pilots.

So you're saying that when battleships were used, it paid back all the cost of insurance, the cost of the hull, the cost of the fitting... we both know that's completely untrue.


People used to buy up stacks of 50+ battleships, insure them and self destruct on the jita undock and made a good profit. We would simply loot our can after the gank and it broke even.

We effectivly could gank for free.
Matari Akiga
Doomheim
#678 - 2013-09-01 14:01:12 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Matari Akiga wrote:


And what will you say Infinity Ziona if I can do it for free? That's right not a single ISK spent? I will get a load on brand new characters all less than a day old in starter ships the only change would be that they have 2 civilian guns and see what we can do? would that finally prove that cost does not reflect performance of two ships with two completely unrelated roles?

When I started posting in this thread I thought people just didn't know better, now I think they are greedy and ignorant and want CCP to protect them from themselves.

You have been told how to make yourself less likely to be ganked, you have been told about the precautions you can take if you need to fill the ship.

I think this thread may have just made me become a ganker.

You can do it for free. If it costs 70 million for you and your friends to blow one up. Considering salvage you should make a profit from it even if it drops nothing.


As stated earlier in this thread character is a freighter pilot I fly almost daily between Amarr, jita and some hisec-lowsec staging systems to keep a sov alliance industry running.

So why am I siding with the gankers? Because if flown with due precautions it is increadibly unlikely that a freighter will get ganked or if a gank squad starts to prep for an attack that you can stop or counter the attack and get the freighter out alive.

The freighters don't need to be changed there is nothing wrong with them, pilots need to change the way they fly them that is the problem here.

CCP dont need to change everything to suit your play style.

Improvise, adapt and overcome!
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#679 - 2013-09-01 14:02:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Quote:


Based on your 28 cats at 2 million each = 56 million + the additional 5 cats instead of the talos at 10 mill, the correct number would obviously be 66 mill. Hasn't dropped at all.


Im guessing you saw one guy with meta 0 guns on a km with lot of unknowns and just assumed we dont fit t2 or higher meta weapons.

Hell even if you were right thats still 70 mil more than it used to be and requires 20 more pilots.

So you're saying that when battleships were used, it paid back all the cost of insurance, the cost of the hull, the cost of the fitting... we both know that's completely untrue.


People used to buy up stacks of 50+ battleships, insure them and self destruct on the jita undock and made a good profit. We would simply loot our can after the gank and it broke even.

We effectivly could gank for free.

Yeah I remember that. Insurance was borked but it was nerfed because it was broken. Same as this. You're effectively ganking for free again.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#680 - 2013-09-01 14:04:51 UTC
Matari Akiga wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Matari Akiga wrote:


And what will you say Infinity Ziona if I can do it for free? That's right not a single ISK spent? I will get a load on brand new characters all less than a day old in starter ships the only change would be that they have 2 civilian guns and see what we can do? would that finally prove that cost does not reflect performance of two ships with two completely unrelated roles?

When I started posting in this thread I thought people just didn't know better, now I think they are greedy and ignorant and want CCP to protect them from themselves.

You have been told how to make yourself less likely to be ganked, you have been told about the precautions you can take if you need to fill the ship.

I think this thread may have just made me become a ganker.

You can do it for free. If it costs 70 million for you and your friends to blow one up. Considering salvage you should make a profit from it even if it drops nothing.


As stated earlier in this thread character is a freighter pilot I fly almost daily between Amarr, jita and some hisec-lowsec staging systems to keep a sov alliance industry running.

So why am I siding with the gankers? Because if flown with due precautions it is increadibly unlikely that a freighter will get ganked or if a gank squad starts to prep for an attack that you can stop or counter the attack and get the freighter out alive.

The freighters don't need to be changed there is nothing wrong with them, pilots need to change the way they fly them that is the problem here.

You realise if they want to kill you, there's no precaution you can take. Scout on the gate. Gank squad somewhere else. They'll bump you with a neutral BS til the squad arrives and you're dead. You've just been lucky.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)