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Adapt Freighter and Jump Freighter

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Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#521 - 2013-08-31 22:53:51 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Matari Akiga wrote:
If the value of the expected drop is less than it would cost to gank the freighter then unless you have offended someone personally they are not likely to gank you it does not make financial sense.


One might rightly question what the hold of a freighter is supposed be filled with when they're still profitable to gank loaded with trit.


Why would you carry nothing but trit anyway-Oh nevermind highsec people.

He has a cargo hold, and it absolutely has to be filled. Damn the risk, opportunity cost!

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#522 - 2013-08-31 22:54:33 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
who said you have to fill a freighter before you undock? you don't have to fill all 900k m3+ of a charon's cargo before it will let you out of the station.


The point was that the cargo hold shouldn't be so big if there's nothing you can intelligently fill it with.
So basically, because people are dumb we should remove freighters from the game?

You best be trolling.

You will find the vast majority of folks who propose changes to the game do so for self-serving reasons.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#523 - 2013-08-31 22:55:05 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
who said you have to fill a freighter before you undock? you don't have to fill all 900k m3+ of a charon's cargo before it will let you out of the station.


The point was that the cargo hold shouldn't be so big if there's nothing you can intelligently fill it with.


Station egg's & iHubs come to mind.

Improper use of an apostrophe: ten points from Gryffindor.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#524 - 2013-08-31 22:58:58 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Yeah they need to be able to fit a tank. Give them fitting abilty. Its pretty stupid an orca can be fit to have 3 times the HP of a freighter.

You'll get a lot of idiots coming into this thread saying theres no problem but they make a living off ganking freighters so theyre biased. You'll also get people who are fanboys of the latter but neither will have a reasonable or sustainable argument so likely you'll get flamed.

I don't gank nor use freighters and its clear to me that when freighters were introduced without fitting it took a sizeable battleship force to kill one. Things have changed a lot and freighters need a rethink.


If CCP gave freighters the ability to fit a tank, people would fit cargohold expanders instead. This would also mean freighters base cargohold would have to be heavily nerfed to account for that. In the end, the only viable fitting option would be to fit cargohold mods. For anything else you would just use an Orca.

Since its already foolish to fill a freighter to capacity those foolish enough to fit expanders making them even easier to gank and then filling the expanded space with more loot would find themselves in pods very quickly.

And your real world example anyone who tries to hijack a tanker has a very real chance of being pod killed permanently. If they ad that to the game would be cool.

It is absolutely not foolish to fill a freighter to capacity. Filling a freighter to capacity is literally the only way to move several items in the game from one place to another. Freighters that are properly scouted, escorted, and defended are an invaluable tool for moving large masses across all ranges of distance. What you mean to say is: "It's already foolish to fill a freighter to capacity and then AFK autopilot it solo without scouting it, adding known gankers to watchlist, or otherwise taking any effort to ensure that it arrives at its destination safely beyond whining on the forums about it." And that is very true. In general when you take no effort to ensure the safety of your assets, you run a risk of them being compromised. This is why people lock their doors at night; this is why people install car alarms; this is why people pay taxes to support a military and police force; and, this is why you use scouts, escorts, and watchlists in EVE Online.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#525 - 2013-08-31 23:00:02 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

And your real world example anyone who tries to hijack a tanker has a very real chance of being pod killed permanently. If they ad that to the game would be cool.

Really? it's considered bad form for civilian bulk carriers to be packing armed crewmen or guards, many ports won't let civilian vessels dock if there are armed personnel aboard.

Source : United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea

Pfft, as if proving someone's argument wrong on the Internet has ever gotten them to admit it.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#526 - 2013-08-31 23:01:08 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Yeah they need to be able to fit a tank. Give them fitting abilty. Its pretty stupid an orca can be fit to have 3 times the HP of a freighter.

You'll get a lot of idiots coming into this thread saying theres no problem but they make a living off ganking freighters so theyre biased. You'll also get people who are fanboys of the latter but neither will have a reasonable or sustainable argument so likely you'll get flamed.

I don't gank nor use freighters and its clear to me that when freighters were introduced without fitting it took a sizeable battleship force to kill one. Things have changed a lot and freighters need a rethink.


If CCP gave freighters the ability to fit a tank, people would fit cargohold expanders instead. This would also mean freighters base cargohold would have to be heavily nerfed to account for that. In the end, the only viable fitting option would be to fit cargohold mods. For anything else you would just use an Orca.

Since its already foolish to fill a freighter to capacity those foolish enough to fit expanders making them even easier to gank and then filling the expanded space with more loot would find themselves in pods very quickly.

And your real world example anyone who tries to hijack a tanker has a very real chance of being pod killed permanently. If they ad that to the game would be cool.


I didn't give a real world example, but you seem very sure that I infact did. Please underline my real world example.

Is this the real life?
Is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide
No escape from reality

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#527 - 2013-08-31 23:01:39 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Why would you carry nothing but trit anyway-Oh nevermind highsec people.


Not sure where you think Megathrons come from.

When an Erebus and a Nyx love each other very much ... Oops

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#528 - 2013-08-31 23:02:34 UTC
Matari Akiga wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
who said you have to fill a freighter before you undock? you don't have to fill all 900k m3+ of a charon's cargo before it will let you out of the station.


The point was that the cargo hold shouldn't be so big if there's nothing you can intelligently fill it with.


Station egg's & iHubs come to mind.


This is the only time my freighter has ever been close to full, and that is me avoiding as much Hi sec as I can.

I take it you've never had cause to move capital parts or IHUB upgrades, then. Industry V Upgrade requires a freighter. Sad

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#529 - 2013-08-31 23:13:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyris Nairn
Mallak Azaria wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Why would you carry nothing but trit anyway-Oh nevermind highsec people.


Not sure where you think Megathrons come from.


Next you'll tell me that it takes 20 JF trips to have all the trit for a Titan instead of a single trip.

Sounds to me like we need bigger cargo holds.

Dave Stark wrote:
But Mallak, you can't be suggesting that there's a more efficient way of transporting minerals than just dumping them all in the back of a freighter, surely!?

No, there isn't. And that's a problem. Cry

Please see my thread on Super Freighters.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#530 - 2013-08-31 23:17:35 UTC
No changes to freighter will save it if you are caught in Null. You have either secured the system for 10 minutes or you don't undock it.

If I was to give an unbiased opinion on freighters in EVE it would be, if you aren't moving Sov structures or capital parts you don't need a freighter. They are just there to lure you in to bad habits.
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#531 - 2013-08-31 23:20:20 UTC
Skydell wrote:
No changes to freighter will save it if you are caught in Null. You have either secured the system for 10 minutes or you don't undock it.

If I was to give an unbiased opinion on freighters in EVE it would be, if you aren't moving Sov structures or capital parts you don't need a freighter. They are just there to lure you in to bad habits.

No one in anyplace but null uses Freighters to move a bunch of ships for a deployment, right?

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#532 - 2013-08-31 23:21:08 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
who said you have to fill a freighter before you undock? you don't have to fill all 900k m3+ of a charon's cargo before it will let you out of the station.


The point was that the cargo hold shouldn't be so big if there's nothing you can intelligently fill it with.
So basically, because people are dumb we should remove freighters from the game?

You best be trolling.


If their original design has been invalidated by balance drift, the more reasonable thing to do would presumably be to address their balancing.

You could nerf t1 fit destroyer dps, give freighters more ehp, give freighters less cargo, make freighters less easy to hold with bumping, ect.

I have never been a fan of "buff this, nerf that." How about people adapt their gameplay instead?

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#533 - 2013-08-31 23:25:49 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
who said you have to fill a freighter before you undock? you don't have to fill all 900k m3+ of a charon's cargo before it will let you out of the station.


The point was that the cargo hold shouldn't be so big if there's nothing you can intelligently fill it with.
So basically, because people are dumb we should remove freighters from the game?

You best be trolling.


If their original design has been invalidated by balance drift, the more reasonable thing to do would presumably be to address their balancing.

You could nerf t1 fit destroyer dps, give freighters more ehp, give freighters less cargo, make freighters less easy to hold with bumping, ect.

Pointless.
Need more dps? Bring more people.
Has more EHP? Bring more people.
Harder to bump? Machariel.

The reasonable thing to do is analyzing the situation and determining what the problem is.
As usual, it's there where most people don't look for it.
In the mirror.

Nobody ever seems to notice that every single day they blame other things for their own failures.
The saddest about this is that people call it human nature, just so they can keep going with jt.

If it were not for a lack of introspection, then we would not have very much content on the forums. A great many people come to the forums with ideas or looking for help, when they could have analyzed themselves for the answer in many cases. This is not something that really bothers me, and I am probably guilty of it as well. It is how we learn. Even though a great many threads devolve into shouting matches between people who are not interested in seeing the other side's perspective, there is always hope that someone will learn something from the encounter. Maybe the folks involved in the argument will not gain anything from it—and in fact that is pretty likely—but I know I have learned quite a lot from watching other people do things, talk about things, and debate how something should be or how it could be better. That's my hope whenever I see a thread like this: that in between the vitriol and the name-calling there will be something worth reading and that I, and others, will come away fro the thread having learned something.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#534 - 2013-08-31 23:33:42 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
who said you have to fill a freighter before you undock? you don't have to fill all 900k m3+ of a charon's cargo before it will let you out of the station.


The point was that the cargo hold shouldn't be so big if there's nothing you can intelligently fill it with.
So basically, because people are dumb we should remove freighters from the game?

You best be trolling.


If their original design has been invalidated by balance drift, the more reasonable thing to do would presumably be to address their balancing.

You could nerf t1 fit destroyer dps, give freighters more ehp, give freighters less cargo, make freighters less easy to hold with bumping, ect.


Their original design purpose, to hold very large things or lots of small things has not been invalidated.

Nor has the design purpose of destroyers to destroy things been invalidated, as evidenced by this thread.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#535 - 2013-08-31 23:35:07 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
Matari Akiga wrote:
One destroyer cannot kill a freighter in hi sec unless you are at war or it otherwise legal combat it requires coordination of multiple assets which means there is profit to be made doing it


The issue is that a 1.5m ship can do a stupid amount of dps, tipping the cost equation.

What makes a given DPS value stupid or not?

Quote:
Quote:
A frigate with double webs will help you get into warp that much faster reducing the risk or bumping and if you warp to zero and jump immediately it is very hard to get caught on the gates repeat for each jump.

I fly freighters and this is the way I do things, I fly with a double web Daredevil piloted by a friend not an alt he double webs me to help me get into warp quicker, plus I don't fly with a cargo value so high that I am attractive to gankers.

But if for some reason I need to move lots of more expensive things I bring more friends to scout ahead, twin logi and a heavy fast battleship.


While I won't fault you for your meticulous personal practices, I think high sec freighting is a boring enough activity already without requiring teamwork.

If high sec freight is boring for you, then you are not required to do it.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#536 - 2013-08-31 23:37:43 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Why would you carry nothing but trit anyway-Oh nevermind highsec people.


Not sure where you think Megathrons come from.

When an Erebus and a Nyx love each other very much ... Oops

Then Boat.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#537 - 2013-08-31 23:40:27 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
You could nerf t1 fit destroyer dps, give freighters more ehp, give freighters less cargo, make freighters less easy to hold with bumping, ect.


yes, you could nerf t1 destroyer dps.
then you'd just bring less people in bigger ships, and you'd still be here crying that it was 15 brutix instead of 25 catalysts (numbers irrelevant, the point is the same).

give freighters more ehp?
see above.

give freighters less cargo?
wouldn't stop people filling it with billions of isk of officer/faction/deadspace modules and being moronic loot pinatas.

make freighters less easy to bump?
this has no real affect on killing a freighter or not, let's be honest. it just means people have to get their **** together faster that's all.

none of your solutions actually solve a single thing, really.

What he wants is to be able to autopilot his freighter with impunity because it is high sec, which ought to be safe.

That is the beginning and end of his arguments. As you point out, no specific changes short of making it impossible to fire offensive modules at another player in high sec would actually fix the problem he has (dying to other players in highsec). As you rightly point out, adjusting anything about the freighter to make them harder to kill would just result in bigger gangs being used to kill them. Following from the OP's complaint about someone using 15 ISBoxer accounts to kill his freighter, it would just become more or bigger ships doing it—and at the end of the day, it could still just be one person, or any number of people, and none of that would matter because the loot piñata would still be dead.

Don't stuff your cargo hold to the point of being a lucrative target. It's that simple.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#538 - 2013-09-01 00:00:50 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
S Byerley wrote:

The issue is that a 1.5m ship can do a stupid amount of dps, tipping the cost equation.

How does the name Destroyer not give you a clue as to the purpose of the ship? Its main design criteria is that it can do an excessive amount of DPS for the size and price of the platform, working as intended.

Then what do Titans do?

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#539 - 2013-09-01 00:04:27 UTC
Skydell wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Skydell wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
please stop posting skydell, every time you post you lengthen the list of inaccuracies associated with your name.


Troll away, troll boy.
Anyone who actually flew a freighter knows I am right.

you barfing out the same failed illegitimacy claims doesn't change that.



except; you're not right.


So you keep saying and yet I know better.

And you can't even provide examples where I am incorrect.


An out of corp fleet member will get concorded for webbing you, this is a game mechanic. A person in the same corp as you will not get a suspect timer, this is a game mechanic. The corp member will get a 60 second weapons timer, which isn't an issue because it will have run out well before the freighter is at the end of it's decloak timer. These are game mechanics, something that you & a few others in this thread seem to know nothing about.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Ragnen Delent
13.
#540 - 2013-09-01 00:04:29 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
S Byerley wrote:

The issue is that a 1.5m ship can do a stupid amount of dps, tipping the cost equation.

How does the name Destroyer not give you a clue as to the purpose of the ship? Its main design criteria is that it can do an excessive amount of DPS for the size and price of the platform, working as intended.

Then what do Titans do?


Act as incredibly expensive coffins, of course.