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A Real Criticism of CCP
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Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#241 - 2013-09-05 09:11:00 UTC
Darek Castigatus wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Spine Ripper wrote:
Hi. My name is Spine Ripper.... and I'm a ganker.

When I log on in Kino, the miners warn each other that I am there. My scout is probably the most well known player in the area and most of the miners know that if they see him sitting next to them, I am probably inbound. I sport a perfect -10 security status and I am closing on a year old with many level V skills that contribute to my ability to solo kill Rets, Covetors and Hulks. As a Knight of the New Order I TELL the miners what they have to do to avoid being subject to ganking or bumping (10,000,000 ISK for a one year mining permit which is a great economic decision!) There are approximately 125 kill rights active on me right now. ANYBODY can shoot me on sight. If I delay at any point after leaving station in my Catalyst the faction police arrive and attack me.

And yet miners like the OP say that CCP has to change things to help them deal with the likes of me. James 315 has covered all this over and over. The miners want to play a single player game where the object is to make their ISK balance as high as possible. Anyone who interferes with that goal is 1) a criminal, 2) a danger to the future of Eve and 3) obviously a failure in RL. They COULD tank their Procurers, watch local and Dscan, move around, not be AFK and of course, buy a mining permit but instead prefer to pretend that things are horribly unbalanced, that their untanked ships are "defenseless" (duh) and that obviously CCP needs to change things in their favor.

The bottom line is that you miners don't get to play the way you want to. You have to play the way WE want to, unless you stop us. You stop us, not CCP. Every time CCP has given in to your demands, we've made it worse for you. The tools you need are already in game. The information you need is there. The only thing missing is the will to do something.

I kill a lot of miners. Every one of them deserved to be shot because they thought it was perfectly fine to fly an expensive, untanked mining ship up next to an asteroid or block of ice, start the lasers and go do the laundry. They refuse to buy a mining permit when told to in local despite the promise that not having one would lead to ganking. They think that people who shoot ships in Eve have GOT to be stopped.

These players deserve to lose their ships. I intend to kill many, many more.


As long as the consequences don't matter you, then they're no consequences.

I wonder what kind of consequences would make you change your mind... and pay a "ganking permit"... so they just leave you alone playing your game, your way.

I mean, your game is to make others suffer consequences so you enjoy your game. Maybe they should be allowed to pay you back in kind, don't they? You push miners out of their way, miners push you back. All in fair sports.Roll


Oh boo hoo hes identified the consequences and adjusted how he does things to accomodate them, time to change the rules because god forbid people use their brains in this game.

As for your last statement you do realise thats what he wants, for miners to actually act on their threats and start fighting back within the accepted game mechannics rather than simply whining at CCP to change the rules because they cant cope.


Making CCP change the rules to inflict more meaningful consequences on gankers is an extremely powerful consequence in itself. And frankly, looking at James315's happy bunch, it's obvious that the game has become too easy to them, they may even be boring themselves. Isn't it time to stirr the rules a bit? Blink

Affecting other players' game is paid for by having other players affect you. James315 and his bunch have been avoiding consequences for a year, it's just about time CCP catches up with them. Twisted

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#242 - 2013-09-05 09:16:24 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Affecting other players' game is paid for by having other players affect you. James315 and his bunch have been avoiding consequences for a year, it's just about time CCP catches up with them. Twisted

They haven't really avoided anything. People have just chosen not to provide any consequences for them. Until they do, there's little reason for CCP to step in.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#243 - 2013-09-05 09:30:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Icarus Able wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Icarus Able wrote:

Read the first post and you will realise you are a dumbass.

Thank you for your wonderful insight, I did read the first post.

The fact of the matter is that most miners won't fight back. I've been in mining corps, I still mine, I also gank other miners on occasion. 90% of them will sit there and whine in local about how CCP should protect them from the bad people, that they're defenceless and that others shouldn't be able to interfere with them.

Please insult me further, it makes me all warm and gooey inside.


OP is not that person though. If hes not lying out of his teeth he wants to fight back. Declare war etc but cant.

Yet in his OP he uses the words "WE" and "US" not "I" and "ME", which suggests that he speaks for others, when in fact 90% of those others are the people whining about being ganked while flatly refusing to do anything about it.

The mechanics are there for miners and industrialists to fight back, but they require sacrificing things like yield or isk to do so. So on the whole they just complain.

Personally if I was an industrialist being targeted by gankers or a wardec, I would try and come to some mutually beneficial arrangement. Take the New Order for example, a lot of their isk and material donations come from industrialists, including miners, looking to muscle in on the competition and/ or sell stuff to both victims and gankers. Consider it an aggressive marketing campaign, where instead of the audience being bombarded with bimbos/himbos on billboards and targeted ads, they're bombarded with antimatter rounds by gankers.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Barzai Mekhar
True Confusion
#244 - 2013-09-05 09:34:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Barzai Mekhar
Darek Castigatus wrote:

As for your last statement you do realise thats what he wants, for miners to actually act on their threats and start fighting back within the accepted game mechannics rather than simply whining at CCP to change the rules because they cant cope.


Currently "fighting back within the game mechanics" comes down to "fight only what the ganker reveals to you", which simply isn't good enough most of the time as it fails to hurt them (unless they're careless/stupid). Killrights on someone that you'll encounter in a catalyst 99% of the time are uninteresting for the purpose of "fighting back" when the agressor cause damages > 20 million ISK with each successful attack. It's simply a battle not worth fighting.

That doesn't mean people are generally unwilling to fight, just that they lack the tools, mostly the tools to dealing with anonymity. This is a major point of the OP (I ignore his second point, the problem of gankers being parts of large alliances, as I don't really agree with it), anonymity is a defensive tool readily available to the attacker but useless to the defender, therefore we need other mechanisms to compensate.

Here's an example of what happens right now:
-A newbiebcorp gets ganked, loses miners, industrials, typical ships that scream "victim".
-In the current situation, the Newbies would most likely be told that organizing defensive fleets would be pointless, as catching the aggressor in anything worth the effort are close to zero (and please spare me the outraged cries of "I never pvp in a ship worth less than 100 million ISK, as if you do, you're probably not ganking newbies). Instead they're just supposed to dock up when a hostile appears in local or move away from their homebase for a few weeks. And I can't really blame them - there's nothing else to do.

Now imagine the alternative
-The alts of the ganker are revealed to the CEO of the corp (only revealed - there's no killright placed on them).
-Instead of being told to hide and run away, the Noobs are taught to use things like locator agents to find those alts.
-They're also taught the basics of cheap combat fits.
-After a week of flying around like headless chickens, they manage to catch one of the agressor hauler/missioning/pi/whatever alts with his pants down, kill it and have really fought back in a way that hurt the agressor instead of only fighting ships the agressor was fully willing to lose in the first place.


Unfortunately, I see no way to make this kind of gameplay possible without massive invasion of privacy... and considering the attitude some miners show it might not be used either way... So I guess it's a sad state of affairs, but blaming it purely on miners not being willing to fight back doesn't seem fair to me.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#245 - 2013-09-05 09:48:49 UTC
Barzai Mekhar wrote:
Here's an example of what happens right now:
-A newbiebcorp gets ganked, loses miners, industrials, typical ships that scream "victim".
-In the current situation, the Newbies would most likely be told that organizing defensive fleets would be pointless, as catching the aggressor in anything worth the effort are close to zero (and please spare me the outraged cries of "I never pvp in a ship worth less than 100 million ISK, as if you do, you're probably not ganking newbies). Instead they're just supposed to dock up when a hostile appears in local or move away from their homebase for a few weeks. And I can't really blame them - there's nothing else to do.
…and that's the problem with newbies: they don't know any better and will believe that there really isn't anything else to do. So the older players in those corps should stop being sissies and instead explain to them the tools available (that have to be employed in any and every other kind of conflict) to try to locate alts and support functions. Of course, the bigger problem here is that the older players were griefed the same way when they were new — someone filled their heads with the same nonsense and they never bothered to check the veracity of it, and so it spreads through the generations.

Also, a mission kill is almost as good as a full kill, so defensive fleets are far from pointless. They deny the target kills or, at worst, make their kills not nearly on the same scale as they were hoping for.

Quote:
blaming it purely on miners not being willing to fight back doesn't seem fair to me.
Since that's what it boils down to the vast majority of the time, it seems very fair.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#246 - 2013-09-05 10:03:10 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Affecting other players' game is paid for by having other players affect you. James315 and his bunch have been avoiding consequences for a year, it's just about time CCP catches up with them. Twisted

They haven't really avoided anything. People have just chosen not to provide any consequences for them. Until they do, there's little reason for CCP to step in.


The strategy of just keep doing the same and unsubbing until CCP perceives gankers as a threat to CCP is as much valid as letting James315 (and by proxy, CCP) dictate how should they play the game. P

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Barzai Mekhar
True Confusion
#247 - 2013-09-05 10:09:55 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Barzai Mekhar wrote:
Here's an example of what happens right now:
-A newbiebcorp gets ganked, loses miners, industrials, typical ships that scream "victim".
-In the current situation, the Newbies would most likely be told that organizing defensive fleets would be pointless, as catching the aggressor in anything worth the effort are close to zero (and please spare me the outraged cries of "I never pvp in a ship worth less than 100 million ISK, as if you do, you're probably not ganking newbies). Instead they're just supposed to dock up when a hostile appears in local or move away from their homebase for a few weeks. And I can't really blame them - there's nothing else to do.


…and that's the problem with newbies: they don't know any better and will believe that there really isn't anything else to do. So the older players in those corps should stop being sissies and instead explain to them the tools available (that have to be employed in any and every other kind of conflict) to try to locate alts and support functions. Of course, the bigger problem here is that the older players were griefed the same way when they were new — someone filled their heads with the same nonsense and they never bothered to check the veracity of it, and so it spreads through the generations.


Well, please tell me how to identify the out of corps haulers, PI alts and missioning ships of the typical anonymous ganker, e.g. our brave "New Order" friends. Please exlcude "too stupid to live" examples of gankers naming their Itty V alt "LoLGankersHauler". I'd be genuinly interested, as I know various people whose alts I'd like to "visit" with my combat alt...
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#248 - 2013-09-05 10:13:49 UTC
Spine Ripper wrote:
Hi. My name is Spine Ripper.... and I'm a ganker.

When I log on in Kino, the miners warn each other that I am there. My scout is probably the most well known player in the area and most of the miners know that if they see him sitting next to them, I am probably inbound. I sport a perfect -10 security status and I am closing on a year old with many level V skills that contribute to my ability to solo kill Rets, Covetors and Hulks. As a Knight of the New Order I TELL the miners what they have to do to avoid being subject to ganking or bumping (10,000,000 ISK for a one year mining permit which is a great economic decision!) There are approximately 125 kill rights active on me right now. ANYBODY can shoot me on sight. If I delay at any point after leaving station in my Catalyst the faction police arrive and attack me.

And yet miners like the OP say that CCP has to change things to help them deal with the likes of me. James 315 has covered all this over and over. The miners want to play a single player game where the object is to make their ISK balance as high as possible. Anyone who interferes with that goal is 1) a criminal, 2) a danger to the future of Eve and 3) obviously a failure in RL. They COULD tank their Procurers, watch local and Dscan, move around, not be AFK and of course, buy a mining permit but instead prefer to pretend that things are horribly unbalanced, that their untanked ships are "defenseless" (duh) and that obviously CCP needs to change things in their favor.

The bottom line is that you miners don't get to play the way you want to. You have to play the way WE want to, unless you stop us. You stop us, not CCP. Every time CCP has given in to your demands, we've made it worse for you. The tools you need are already in game. The information you need is there. The only thing missing is the will to do something.

I kill a lot of miners. Every one of them deserved to be shot because they thought it was perfectly fine to fly an expensive, untanked mining ship up next to an asteroid or block of ice, start the lasers and go do the laundry. They refuse to buy a mining permit when told to in local despite the promise that not having one would lead to ganking. They think that people who shoot ships in Eve have GOT to be stopped.

These players deserve to lose their ships. I intend to kill many, many more.

what do we have here? Real person emulating NPC rat, having nothing worth the time and effort someone would spend to hunt him, dedicated the whole his gameplay to **** on other players. And proud of it.

In real world objects like this one people call viruses. Sometime they deadly sometime they just danger. People defend themself from viruses, make vaccines...

Really it is first time i see person who likes to be simple virus What?

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#249 - 2013-09-05 10:15:26 UTC
Barzai Mekhar wrote:
Well, please tell me how to identify the out of corps haulers, PI alts and missioning ships of the typical anonymous ganker, e.g. our brave "New Order" friends. Please exlcude "too stupid to live" examples of gankers naming their Itty V alt "LoLGankersHauler". I'd be genuinly interested, as I know various people whose alts I'd like to "visit" with my combat alt...

The same way you would any other group: infiltrate, observe, collect and correlate data from markets, corp sheets, killboards, forums. Why are they flying with, who are they interacting with, and what names keep appearing two steps out?
Barzai Mekhar
True Confusion
#250 - 2013-09-05 10:22:38 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Barzai Mekhar wrote:
Well, please tell me how to identify the out of corps haulers, PI alts and missioning ships of the typical anonymous ganker, e.g. our brave "New Order" friends. Please exlcude "too stupid to live" examples of gankers naming their Itty V alt "LoLGankersHauler". I'd be genuinly interested, as I know various people whose alts I'd like to "visit" with my combat alt...

The same way you would any other group: infiltrate, observe, collect and correlate data from markets, corp sheets, killboards, forums. Why are they flying with, who are they interacting with, and what names keep appearing two steps out?


So, the basic requirement to fight back in EVE is to be able and willing to lie into peoples faces (or in their voicecoms etc.) in order to infiltrate them? Yeah, sorry, if that's a design decission I think I'll pass.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#251 - 2013-09-05 10:26:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Barzai Mekhar wrote:
So, the basic requirement to fight back in EVE is to be able and willing to lie into peoples faces (or in their voicecoms etc.) in order to infiltrate them?
No, the basic requirement to fight back is to do a bit of work gathering information. That probably explains why people keep claiming that they can't fight back…
Ressiv
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#252 - 2013-09-05 10:26:25 UTC
Barzai Mekhar wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Barzai Mekhar wrote:
Well, please tell me how to identify the out of corps haulers, PI alts and missioning ships of the typical anonymous ganker, e.g. our brave "New Order" friends. Please exlcude "too stupid to live" examples of gankers naming their Itty V alt "LoLGankersHauler". I'd be genuinly interested, as I know various people whose alts I'd like to "visit" with my combat alt...

The same way you would any other group: infiltrate, observe, collect and correlate data from markets, corp sheets, killboards, forums. Why are they flying with, who are they interacting with, and what names keep appearing two steps out?


So, the basic requirement to fight back in EVE is to be able and willing to lie into peoples faces (or in their voicecoms etc.) in order to infiltrate them? Yeah, sorry, if that's a design decission I think I'll pass.

If you observe that you have to lie from what Tippia told you, you populate the "too stupid to live" category you mentioned earlyer.
Barzai Mekhar
True Confusion
#253 - 2013-09-05 10:30:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Barzai Mekhar
Ressiv wrote:
Barzai Mekhar wrote:
Tippia wrote:

The same way you would any other group: infiltrate, observe, collect and correlate data from markets, corp sheets, killboards, forums. Why are they flying with, who are they interacting with, and what names keep appearing two steps out?


So, the basic requirement to fight back in EVE is to be able and willing to lie into peoples faces (or in their voicecoms etc.) in order to infiltrate them? Yeah, sorry, if that's a design decission I think I'll pass.

If you observe that you have to lie from what Tippia told you, you populate the "too stupid to live" category you mentioned earlyer.


Oh, so when asked why you want to join the corp you're trying to infiltrate, you're going to honestly tell them that you're trying to wreak havoc from within? Great plan.

Tippia wrote:
Barzai Mekhar wrote:
So, the basic requirement to fight back in EVE is to be able and willing to lie into peoples faces (or in their voicecoms etc.) in order to infiltrate them?
No, the basic requirement to fight back is to do a bit of work gathering information. That probably explains why people keep claiming that they can't fight back…


Guess we'll have to disagree on how available that kind of data is and if the kind of metagaming required to atain it is reasonable. Personally I'd draw a line at attaining any non-public information (e.g. acess to corp boards, API keys and so on), and I fail to see how killboards or market data allow me to identify hauler or PI alts. Missioning alts, maybe. But everything else? If there's a clear connection between your industrial alts and your pvp ganking alts, you eat where you poop.
Ressiv
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#254 - 2013-09-05 10:34:02 UTC
Barzai Mekhar wrote:
Ressiv wrote:
Barzai Mekhar wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Barzai Mekhar wrote:
Well, please tell me how to identify the out of corps haulers, PI alts and missioning ships of the typical anonymous ganker, e.g. our brave "New Order" friends. Please exlcude "too stupid to live" examples of gankers naming their Itty V alt "LoLGankersHauler". I'd be genuinly interested, as I know various people whose alts I'd like to "visit" with my combat alt...

The same way you would any other group: infiltrate, observe, collect and correlate data from markets, corp sheets, killboards, forums. Why are they flying with, who are they interacting with, and what names keep appearing two steps out?


So, the basic requirement to fight back in EVE is to be able and willing to lie into peoples faces (or in their voicecoms etc.) in order to infiltrate them? Yeah, sorry, if that's a design decission I think I'll pass.

If you observe that you have to lie from what Tippia told you, you populate the "too stupid to live" category you mentioned earlyer.


Oh, so when asked why you want to join the corp you're trying to infiltrate, you're going to honestly tell them that you're trying to wreak havoc from within? Great plan.

...now you're just proving my point. Ever thought of a tad more diplomatic approach? "I want to learn this aspect of the game" might not instantly end the converrsation and would not be lying ... not showing your hand is not lying.

You need to become more creative Blink
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#255 - 2013-09-05 10:34:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Barzai Mekhar wrote:

Well, please tell me how to identify the out of corps haulers, PI alts and missioning ships of the typical anonymous ganker, e.g. our brave "New Order" friends. Please exlcude "too stupid to live" examples of gankers naming their Itty V alt "LoLGankersHauler". I'd be genuinly interested, as I know various people whose alts I'd like to "visit" with my combat alt...

Some of that information is publicly available, if only you could be arsed to look.

Public being openly and easily available, without having to resort to subterfuge, infiltration, API keys, data mining or any other malarky that may offend your obviously sensitive nature.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Barzai Mekhar
True Confusion
#256 - 2013-09-05 10:42:15 UTC
Ressiv wrote:

...now you're just proving my point. Ever thought of a tad more diplomatic approach? "I want to learn this aspect of the game" might not instantly end the converrsation and would not be lying ... not showing your hand is not lying.

You need to become more creative Blink


This isn't about whether I'm technically lying or not but whether I'm honest in my interactions with them, which I'm clearly not. If I'd be willing to exploit peoples stupidty by scamming them, I'd do just that, scam people.
Ressiv
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#257 - 2013-09-05 11:12:30 UTC
Barzai Mekhar wrote:
Ressiv wrote:

...now you're just proving my point. Ever thought of a tad more diplomatic approach? "I want to learn this aspect of the game" might not instantly end the converrsation and would not be lying ... not showing your hand is not lying.

You need to become more creative Blink


This isn't about whether I'm technically lying or not but whether I'm honest in my interactions with them, which I'm clearly not. If I'd be willing to exploit peoples stupidty by scamming them, I'd do just that, scam people.

You keep forgetting it's a game. Will you use the same arguments when you play Monopoly ? You write off a large part of game mechanics as being beneath you ... and then complain you cant do anything about your situation.

If you're too good to help yourself, pay .Noir for instance to solve your issue .. might be expensive tho if you want them to do everything up to and including changing your daiper.
Forum Damsel
Doomheim
#258 - 2013-09-05 16:34:43 UTC
Spine Ripper wrote:
Hi. My name is Spine Ripper.... and I'm a ganker.

When I log on in Kino, the miners warn each other that I am there. My scout is probably the most well known player in the area and most of the miners know that if they see him sitting next to them, I am probably inbound. I sport a perfect -10 security status and I am closing on a year old with many level V skills that contribute to my ability to solo kill Rets, Covetors and Hulks. As a Knight of the New Order I TELL the miners what they have to do to avoid being subject to ganking or bumping (10,000,000 ISK for a one year mining permit which is a great economic decision!) There are approximately 125 kill rights active on me right now. ANYBODY can shoot me on sight. If I delay at any point after leaving station in my Catalyst the faction police arrive and attack me.

And yet miners like the OP say that CCP has to change things to help them deal with the likes of me. James 315 has covered all this over and over. The miners want to play a single player game where the object is to make their ISK balance as high as possible. Anyone who interferes with that goal is 1) a criminal, 2) a danger to the future of Eve and 3) obviously a failure in RL. They COULD tank their Procurers, watch local and Dscan, move around, not be AFK and of course, buy a mining permit but instead prefer to pretend that things are horribly unbalanced, that their untanked ships are "defenseless" (duh) and that obviously CCP needs to change things in their favor.

The bottom line is that you miners don't get to play the way you want to. You have to play the way WE want to, unless you stop us. You stop us, not CCP. Every time CCP has given in to your demands, we've made it worse for you. The tools you need are already in game. The information you need is there. The only thing missing is the will to do something.

I kill a lot of miners. Every one of them deserved to be shot because they thought it was perfectly fine to fly an expensive, untanked mining ship up next to an asteroid or block of ice, start the lasers and go do the laundry. They refuse to buy a mining permit when told to in local despite the promise that not having one would lead to ganking. They think that people who shoot ships in Eve have GOT to be stopped.

These players deserve to lose their ships. I intend to kill many, many more.


I know quite a bit about your filthy 'order'. it's just a protection racket.

In the real world, it would be a crime. In EvE, it's fun for immature punks.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#259 - 2013-09-05 16:46:51 UTC
Forum Damsel wrote:
I know quite a bit about your filthy 'order'. it's just a protection racket.

In the real world, it would be a crime. In EvE, it's fun for immature punks.

Crime? Is it a crime to expect certain ethical standards and request people conduct themselves appropriately in your own territory?
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#260 - 2013-09-05 16:46:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Forum Damsel wrote:
I know quite a bit about your filthy 'order'. it's just a protection racket.

In the real world, it would be a crime. In EvE, it's fun for immature punks. a legitimate way of doing business

FYP, Eve is not the real world. Extortion, backstabbing, theft, confidence tricks etc; are considered legitimate practices in this dark dystopian world. If you can't accept that, then Eve is probably not the game for you.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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