These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

ECM Drones are OP. Please save us CCP Rise!

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#81 - 2013-09-01 15:04:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
SMT008 wrote:
Yeah now it's getting kinda obvious that you're trolling.


How about you detail precisely how instead of implying a generalization because you're getting your figurative ass handed to you.

It's kind of obvious you aren't qualified to be in this discussion and you're doing more to hurt your cause than you are helping. Because if you put up a weak argument i'm going to rip it apart. I'm not going to allow a thread full of fallacious propaganda to remove one of the best aspects of EVE's gameplay so the reductive of our playerbase are content, temporarily at best.

Protip: Being disagreed with isn't being trolled.
Digits Kho
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2013-09-01 15:14:19 UTC
Don Purple wrote:
I have never seen ecm drones get off more than one or two good bursts before they are useless. Confirming I see them next to a lot of wrecks as well.


http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=19177812

80 seconds of jam on 17 ladar sensor strength during the fight , first round roughly 10 seconds after lock the other 3 at enemys 75% armor for the remaining 60 seconds .

P.S Yes he would have been dead , Yes those drones are the only reason it didnt happen. No im not mad .Tell me something new, no nerd science pls
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#83 - 2013-09-01 15:32:44 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
I'm not going to allow a thread full of fallacious propaganda to remove one of the best aspects of EVE's gameplay because the reductive of our playerbase can't see past their own noses.

Protip: Being disagreed with isn't being trolled.


Saying that ECM drones are one of the best aspects of EVE's gameplay is either being a troll or being stupid. Either way it's hilarious.

Seriously, I have NEVER ever heard anyone say "EVE would have never been the same with ECM drones !" or "Good thing they are not removing ECM drones !" or anything like that.

However, I've heard "f*ck ECM drones" a lot. Pretty much everywhere and in every language.

Being disagreed with isn't being trolled, that is true. But you say I use hyperboles while you do aswell. A single message with a bunch of smiley is also a sign of trolling.

Saying that I should detail precisely instead of implying a generalization while you keep generalizing with the ridiculous "But everyone can use combat drones :(" is what I would call trolling. Or being very stupid.

Digits Khos' exemple happens to me quite a lot. Same goes for a lot of my corpmates. Happens a lot on ratting ships too like carriers and stuff.

The "I deserve an escape possiblity" argument is also ridiculous. If you're too slow to warp-out while the ship designed to take you down lands close to you, well, you are bad and you'll die because of it as it should be.

Oh and please explain how ECCM is any useful when not fighting ECM ships or ECM drones (as opposed to capboosters vs neuts, trackingcomps vs disruptors and so on). I'd love to hear your generalization on that : "But you know, modules don't work in every situation !!"

So please keep going, it keeps me entertained while I wait for my Steam games to update.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#84 - 2013-09-01 16:01:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
You're using a lot of words without saying much. Vindictive mocking and rhetoric mixed with laughably amateur attempts at alienation do not an argument make. And the majority being in agreement does not right make. You're slipping back into moving the goal posts.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#85 - 2013-09-01 16:26:18 UTC
Why are you arguing if you can't present couter-arguments other than "you're being mean" and "even if everyone thinks its bad, I think that it is not, and my opinion is worth more" ?

Oh and I almost forgot the "Because if you put up a weak argument i'm going to rip it apart" thing. Which translates to "I could rip apart your weak arguments but I won't". Which doesn't really help, does it.

Argument :

Quote:
The "I deserve an escape possiblity" argument is also ridiculous. If you're too slow to warp-out while the ship designed to take you down lands close to you, well, you are bad and you'll die because of it as it should be, and not escape because you have magic drones.


Your answer ?

Argument :

Quote:
Oh and please explain how ECCM is any useful when not fighting ECM ships or ECM drones (as opposed to capboosters vs neuts, trackingcomps vs disruptors and so on).


Your answer ?

Proposal :

Quote:
If you want retreat, you may use ECM as an exit solution, of course. With either an ECM module, that makes your ship worse than a ship with no ECM module. Or a mate in a Falcon/ECM ship. How about that ?


I'll add to that one that when you want proper sensor dampening, you use a sensor dampening ship. When you want proper target painting or tracking disruption, you use target painting or tracking disruption hulls in order to get that proper EW effect.

Why is it not the same ? Why are 5 light ECM drones able to jam a battleship for 20s (which is what I call "proper ECM", because it actually works) ?

That way, maybe I'll get a proper answer instead of "you're being mean with lots of words". But I doubt it.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#86 - 2013-09-01 16:27:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Lol! Counter arguments. You lost the debate three pages ago. You've confused me being willing to engage in meaningful discussion to commiting to answer every inane question you care to pose.

Protip: Asking more questions, demanding more evidence for new situations to cover for your former absolutely weak reasoning doesn't make your case any stronger.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#87 - 2013-09-01 16:32:01 UTC  |  Edited by: SMT008
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Lol! Counter arguments. You lost the debate three pages ago.


"Lol, I don't need to answer because I r teh win and u lose lol u mad u mad"

Maybe it wasn't supposed to sound like that, but it sounds exactly like that.

Or mabye it's because you can't answer or justify things like, the fact that ECCM is only of use versus ECM modules/drones as opposed to everything else. This or many other arguments I've made tbh.

EDIT : Well, if only you could attempt to continue arguing for a little longer, I'm almost done downloading things and will go play some BF3 in a few minutes, that'd be geat.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#88 - 2013-09-01 16:37:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
There isn't a question you have posed that is too complex for me to answer. But there is no value in convincing you. Someone of your intellect level would never have any serious weight in design discussions. There is a limit to how much energy i'm going to put into enlightening one who wishes to remain willfully ignorant.

As an example, this remedial question

"Or mabye it's because you can't answer or justify things like, the fact that ECCM is only of use versus ECM modules/drones as opposed to everything else. This or many other arguments I've made tbh."

Yes ECCM is only useful versus ECM. Like shields are only useful versus damage and not webifiers. That isn't an argument. Its a statement of fact. Your misunderstanding of the difference and assumption there is a problem with it demonstrates precisely my point about you being unqualified to be in this discussion.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#89 - 2013-09-01 16:43:32 UTC
If englightening equals to convincing someone ECM drones are one of the best aspects of EVE's gameplay, then no wonder I wish to remain ignorant. And tbh, at this point, we're all willingfully ignorant.

Believe it or not, ECM drones is not one of the best aspects of EVE's gameplay.

Planning is. Theorycrafting is. Piloting is. FCing is.

Not "deploy magic drones, warp out".
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#90 - 2013-09-01 16:46:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Are you already starting the moving of the goalpost again? I'm growing bored.

Here's a question for you. Why do you feel entitled to reprieve from ECM and that you have a right to only use a mod when you absolutely know youll need it instead of planning for the unexpected?
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#91 - 2013-09-01 16:50:55 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:

Yes ECCM is only useful versus ECM. Like shields are only useful versus damage and not webifiers. That isn't an argument. Its a statement of fact. Your misunderstanding of the difference and assumption there is a problem with it demonstrates precisely my point about you being unqualified to be in this discussion.


Sure, shield is only useful versus damage. We're talking about PVP here right ?

In PVP, do you get shot at often ? Yes, very often.

In PVP, do you see ECM ships often ? Not really. If you do, you can avoid them if you chose to and if you're competent enough to.

I'm pretty sure I don't even need to go farther, you'll understand by yourself, if you can, why there is a problem with fitting ECCMs to counter drones that every ship can carry.

Also, why are ECM drones multispectral ? Wouldn't it be more complex and deep and all that with specific, racial drones ? I'm sure it would. Considering the fact that you like things that are complex and stuff, racial drones should please you very much. I mean, 4 kinds of ECM drones instead of just one multispec sounds GREAT, right ? Cool
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#92 - 2013-09-01 16:55:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Here's a question for you. Why do you feel entitled to reprieve from ECM and that you have a right to only use a mod when you absolutely know youll need it instead of planning for the unexpected?

And yes you really should stop. I say that as to grant mercy.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#93 - 2013-09-01 17:02:39 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Are you already starting the moving of the goalpost again? I'm growing bored.

Here's a question for you. Why do you feel entitled to reprieve from ECM and that you have a right to only use a mod when you absolutely know youll need it instead of planning for the unexpected?


See, I fit tracking computers even if I don't know if I'm going to encounter Pilgrims, Curses, Arbitrators, Crucifiers or Sentinels. I do because it actually brings something useful to the ship.

I fit capboosters on some of my ships even if I don't know if I'm going to encounter neuting ships. It will still have some value no matter what.

I would fit ECCM if it did bring some value to my ship when I'm not getting jammed. Like a scan res boost or something similar. But it doesn't. When I'm not getting jammed, it is 100% useless.

Which is why I don't fit ECCMs unless I know what I'm up against.

What's specific to ECM is the fact that ECM drones are actually powerful, powerful enough that you have to defend against them.

And as you already know, you can carry those drones in every ship in EVE.

ECM ships have specific flaws, like their very low tank, the fact that they dedicate their whole ship to jamming and such.

With ECM drones, it just doesn't work. A Machariel with ECM drones will jam me like an Ishkur with ECM drones would.

And there is no piloting solution to that either.

You can protect yourself from neuts with range. You can protect yourself from webs/scramblers the same way. You can mitigate a bit the effect of a tracking disruptor by keeping a low transversal. You can mitigate a bit the effect of a target painter by maximizing your transversal and hope for the best, or just leave the hostiles' weapons range.

None of that works against ECM. You absolutly need a module that only works in that specific situation, else you can't do anything. You can't shoot, you can't tackle, you can't rep, you can't give order to drones. And if you have the module fitted and no one tries to jam you, you have one 100% wasted slot.

That is where the imbalance is.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#94 - 2013-09-01 17:10:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
I 2 am disappoint that my shields only work versus damage and not against webifiers.

For as big a problem as you claim ecm drones to be you'd think that you'd never leave home without them or defense against them.

So is it that you encounter ecm drones all the time and refuse to equip eccm or are you making a big deal of an occasional nuisance in which you feel justified ignoring in almost all situations?

Or is it EVEs design, where no ship you can build leaves the dock without a weakness, that's bugging you? I understand if you feel that way. Everyone does. But that's called balance.
Gorn Arming
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#95 - 2013-09-01 18:29:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Gorn Arming
I've been in hundreds of solo fights, and ECM drones are enough of a problem that I fit at least one smartbomb on every brawling ship larger than a destroyer unless I know ahead of time that my opponent isn't carrying ECM drones.

Meanwhile, a set of light ECM drones occupies the first 25 m^3 of drone bay in nearly every fit I fly.

Totally not OP.
Baggo Hammers
#96 - 2013-09-01 18:33:01 UTC
Shammys are OP!! Oh wait....

If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there.
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#97 - 2013-09-01 19:28:00 UTC
wowyouareacow wrote:
They are WAY more powerful than damage ones in a solo or small gang engagement.
I can understand EWAR that reduces damage/lock speed etc, but totally disabling your opponent for as long as ECM does is overpowered.

ablooablooabloo...

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#98 - 2013-09-01 21:34:29 UTC
SMT008 wrote:
None of that works against ECM. You absolutly need a module that only works in that specific situation, else you can't do anything. You can't shoot, you can't tackle, you can't rep, you can't give order to drones. And if you have the module fitted and no one tries to jam you, you have one 100% wasted slot.

That is where the imbalance is.

You complain that ECM is OP and that ECM drones are OP - yet you refuse to fit the *ONE* mod that will fix that.




It's true. You can't fix stupid.

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
SpoonRECKLESS
Beach Boys
The Minions.
#99 - 2013-09-02 02:08:22 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
I have never actually seen them work.

And every time I find wrecks, if there's ECM drones there's 5 of them just sitting there. Further evidence that they didn't work.




^^^This. Every time I ever used ecms they never work.

Blue
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#100 - 2013-09-02 02:09:03 UTC
Clearly the answer is drone assist doctrines.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?