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I'm back for real. Looking for input.
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Felicity Love
Doomheim
#21 - 2013-08-30 16:09:46 UTC
Halada wrote:
Elena Thiesant wrote:

Drone alloys are gone. Drones now have bounties and drop absolutely nothing in terms of loot. Meta 0 modules no longer drop as loot, only meta 1-4


Wow.

So what's responsible for this market crash of min prices?



A resource "rebalance" that in some people's view might have been more of an "overbalance". I guess we'll see if/when the market prices pick up a bit as the Summer Slump comes to a close.

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Halada
Praxian Theory
#22 - 2013-08-30 20:25:05 UTC
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
Suicide ganking of mining vessels is still happening regularly - I have friends that do it all the time. Most mining vessels fit no tank or modules/rigs that provide very little tank. Some gankers don't care about the ISK and will use five, six, or seven T1 fit Catalysts to take down one mining vessel. James 315 and the New Order are still very active issuing mining permits to those who will buy them. In short if someone wants to destroy your mining ship they will do so.


Do they do it because its lucrative or because ruining people's fun is what makes them happy?
Ginger Barbarella
#23 - 2013-08-30 20:38:51 UTC
Welcome back, man! Lol

That's it, nothing else. Smile

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Ginger Barbarella
#24 - 2013-08-30 20:48:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Ginger Barbarella
Halada wrote:
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
Suicide ganking of mining vessels is still happening regularly - I have friends that do it all the time. Most mining vessels fit no tank or modules/rigs that provide very little tank. Some gankers don't care about the ISK and will use five, six, or seven T1 fit Catalysts to take down one mining vessel. James 315 and the New Order are still very active issuing mining permits to those who will buy them. In short if someone wants to destroy your mining ship they will do so.


Do they do it because its lucrative or because ruining people's fun is what makes them happy?


There's basically no money in ganking these days, unless you come across come idiot that officer-fit his Retriever. From my perspective it's basically just for the lulz, kinda like those that station camp waiting for noobs in blingy ships just to shoot them.

And I second what others have said: your Guide is on every machine I play on (well, Dropbox anyway), and on the rare occassion when I feel the need to haul out an Orca and a couple Macks to mine with, I still use it to double check the ore variants. And I still recommend it on the Forums and in Help Chat when mining questions arise.

When something works, you stick with it. I would love to see an updated Guide containing new info on the Ships, Anoms, and maybe even a section on anti-ganking fits for the noobs. Willing to help out with ISK, proof-reading, or whatever to help with a new Guide if you choose to do that. Smile

Edit: by the way, I haven't seen anyone mention it yet, but the scanned down Grav sites are gone. Anyone can get to the Grav anoms with zero effort these days (including gankers). Kinda pointless in my opinion, but I'm sure CCP had their reasons for changing that. Maybe griefing high sec miners, dunno...

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Halada
Praxian Theory
#25 - 2013-08-30 20:59:02 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
There's basically no money in ganking these days, unless you come across come idiot that officer-fit his Retriever. From my perspective it's basically just for the lulz, kinda like those that station camp waiting for noobs in blingy ships just to shoot them.


Cue "Some man just want to see the world burn" Batman line. ;)

I'd really love to get testimonies from high sec players, both casual and hardcore players.

How is commissioning to earn ISK? How much do you make? Distribution missions will net 2.5-5M/H which is very low, and encounter missions I've seen reach as high as 20M if you factor LP, but that's with tengus and CNRs is it not? Not exactly a realistic figure for newbies.

What about incursions?

Has anyone used the venture for ninja mining successfully? I liked the idea but it appears somewhat gimmicky to me. Havent flown it, yet.
Halada
Praxian Theory
#26 - 2013-08-30 21:02:14 UTC
Felicity Love wrote:
Halada wrote:
Elena Thiesant wrote:

Drone alloys are gone. Drones now have bounties and drop absolutely nothing in terms of loot. Meta 0 modules no longer drop as loot, only meta 1-4


Wow.

So what's responsible for this market crash of min prices?



A resource "rebalance" that in some people's view might have been more of an "overbalance". I guess we'll see if/when the market prices pick up a bit as the Summer Slump comes to a close.



So you used to make 120mil/h in null and suddenly after the rebalance it dropped to 35 and people didn't complain?

How long have prices been like this?

It's one thing that Empire mining only earns 25M/hour, but the fact you can only make 35 in null is a serious violation of the previous equilibrium of risk vs reward, which made moving to null just for the mining worth it.

I'd much rather stay in empire and risk a few troll gankers than have to deal with 0.0 logistics, security, cloakers, etc. for a measly 10m/h extra. YMMV.
Ginger Barbarella
#27 - 2013-08-30 21:19:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Ginger Barbarella
There's some "black helicopter" thinking out there, but CCP has made moves in past expansions to try growing null populations/activity/industry, some would say at the expense of high sec. In past discussions they clearly are shifting their thinking toward null-sec group play ("massively MULTI-player blah blah blah") away from casual gamers who may choose solo activities, and the voices of the large groups of players are heard more over those of high sec dwellers.

People complained about the loss of income for miners, but a number of recent changes were to specifically help benefit the imbalance as viewed by the nullies (re: industry & mineral availability), and since there has been no real indication of ANYTHING changing in the way nullsec does business after these changes. They have reasons for not taking advantage of them, and high sec miners still quietly mine away, ignoring the kick in the crotch. People like James432423423423214 come along to rally the wanna-be's to the perceived threat of miners, adding to the voice of "mining is bad and high sec mining is KILLING THE GAME!!!!11!!"). The "help null sec mining!" cry went out, CCP did something about it, and apparently null sec chose not to take advantage of it. Whatever.

Incursions were great in the beginning, but like everything else, eventually the fun wore off, and it's more about specialized high-end fit Pirate and T2 vessels with heavily choreographed plans to either kill quick to milk it for as long as they can. The average Joe can't get into a fleet without an officer fit Mach (slight exaggeration there) or some other high end, high DPS boat and a squad of top-end Logis. Like the botting of L4's near systems like Inaro, Incursions are pretty much cookie-cutter boat fits that one needs to display a massive ship investment in just to be considered.

A paranoid person might even think that the constant pressure from CCP to enforce the "MULTI-" in multi-player is driving more people into cooperative solo work on schedules and playstyles as they see fit, rather than the group-think of past parge corps and alliances. Blink I personally prefer solo and the occassional "come and go as I see fit" cooperation over CTAs and knuckle-dragging group think that seems pervasive these days.

But I'm one of those paranoid people. P I personally wouldn't be surprised if high sec as we know it today didn't exist in two years.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-08-30 21:34:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Elena Thiesant
Halada wrote:
So you used to make 120mil/h in null and suddenly after the rebalance it dropped to 35 and people didn't complain?


Wasn't like that.
Prior to the mineral rebalance mentioned (which was June), nullsec mining was only marginally more profitable than highsec. The only nullsec ore worth more than scordite per m3 was Arkonor. Lowsec ores were the most valuable per m3 (after Ark). Now the raw ISK/m3 of the ores has most of the nullsec ores above scordite.
Zaxix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-08-30 23:55:46 UTC
Halada wrote:
I wasn't aware the next expansion would be industry focused. Are we talking major overhauls?

While it's still a bit of a guessing game as to size and scope and the exact parameters, the rumors originate with fan fest.

http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2013/04/fanfest-day-five-sales-pitch.html towards the end. With a little bit of searching of the blogs and sites linked off his site, I'm sure you'll find more information and speculation. It isn't necessarily going to be mining focused, but I think industry as a portion of the game is going to get some love.

Bokononist

 
Dave Stark
#30 - 2013-08-31 06:30:44 UTC
Halada wrote:
Do they do it because its lucrative or because ruining people's fun is what makes them happy?


consider the following; the cfc owns pretty much all of the areas of null sec that contain white glaze. they're also currently suicide ganking any one in high sec mining white glaze. high sec alone has the capacity to supply 80% of the white glaze demand.

it's lucrative, especially when isotope prices jumped from around 600-700 to just over 1000 isk/unit the weekend it was due to start, and when they probably offloaded most of their stockpiles.
Eric Raeder
No Fee Too High
#31 - 2013-08-31 09:14:08 UTC
Planetary Interaction is lacking a really good guide. There are a zillion PI guides out there, but they all cover bits and pieces without giving a complete picture. The number one issue people have a hard time figuring out is what they should be making. What would be really cool is an IPH like tool that pulls prices from the market and tells you what the most profitible items are. But if you are extracting, not just running factory planets, the issue is complex, calculations would need to account for the relative rarity of the resources extracted; I don't think a decent database of that information exists outside of CCPs game code they aren't revealing. Any profitablilty calculator MUST account for import and export fees (AKA taxes). A good general guide should walk players step by step through setting up the various buildings, placing extractor heads, setting links and routes, how to manage storage so stuff doesn't overflow, how to use spaceports and command center launches and expedited transfers, when to upgrade links. Pictures please, text descriptions aren't really enough. I think high res stills are better than video which tends to be too fuzzy to see details. Some discussion of privately owned customs offices would be nice, how to build, bash, and defend them, as well as how to manage tax rates and sales, and how location and tax rate and planet type will affect profitability.
El-ahrairah
Doomheim
#32 - 2013-08-31 12:34:00 UTC
https://sites.google.com/site/eveplanetaryplanner/home/how-to

i use eve planetary planner alot as it has a good tool that pulls prices from the market.

Atm there is still profit from selling pl level 1 and there is more than enough profit shipping pl 1 off the planet to a factory planet even taking in account high sec taxes of 10%.
running on a maxed skilled pi toon i have found running the extraction of 2 days runs close to the planets small refresh rate, so moving the extraction mining units isnt too much of a headache.
in highsec i wouldnt bother much doing pi in any system above 0.6. low, null, and wormhole's are the best as the extraction rate is a damn lot higher. You just have to sweet talk the locals for the lower tax rates, if your running in low just remember 2 warp stabs are your friend.
Ryan Easte
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-08-31 15:31:35 UTC
Welcome back bro Big smile
Halada
Praxian Theory
#34 - 2013-08-31 17:23:19 UTC
Eric Raeder wrote:
Planetary Interaction is lacking a really good guide. There are a zillion PI guides out there, but they all cover bits and pieces without giving a complete picture. The number one issue people have a hard time figuring out is what they should be making. What would be really cool is an IPH like tool that pulls prices from the market and tells you what the most profitible items are. But if you are extracting, not just running factory planets, the issue is complex, calculations would need to account for the relative rarity of the resources extracted; I don't think a decent database of that information exists outside of CCPs game code they aren't revealing. Any profitablilty calculator MUST account for import and export fees (AKA taxes). A good general guide should walk players step by step through setting up the various buildings, placing extractor heads, setting links and routes, how to manage storage so stuff doesn't overflow, how to use spaceports and command center launches and expedited transfers, when to upgrade links. Pictures please, text descriptions aren't really enough. I think high res stills are better than video which tends to be too fuzzy to see details. Some discussion of privately owned customs offices would be nice, how to build, bash, and defend them, as well as how to manage tax rates and sales, and how location and tax rate and planet type will affect profitability.





Exactly the kind of input I am looking for in this thread. Thank you very much for taking the time to articulate your expectations, such guidance will prove invaluable during the writing of this project.

Pictures it will be anyway because I don't deal with video editing. It's not my thing, I've never liked it. I find videos to be a great medium to present general overviews on things. Watching only requires minimal concentration compared to active reading, so whenever you need to dive into the finer details, as EVE often requires, I prefer hi-res images as well that clearly illustrate the point being made.

I currently live in a C5 on a permanent basis, which I hear would make a GREAT place for PI. I'm training 3 alts to max skills to dabble with it. Unfortunately, I think I'll be running a LONG cycle because I don't want to be emptying **** every 24h on 6 accounts, not to mention hauling the **** out of there to Jita will be a major pain.

I've been trying to find, in vain, a good resource on PI ever since I came back. I was told in a C5 I could "easily" pull 1bil/month per char. That's 3 bil of passive income per account if all 3 do PI. That's really good passive income, but I've not yet verified the validity of this claim.

Something else I must try is invention. I have 1mil+ gallantean ship datacores in RP stored, and 400k mechanical cores. I wanted to try my hand at Anshar inventing, but this **** is cray cray! To make it really profitable I'd have to buy MULTIPLE Obelisk BPO, which take a full month to make a BPC out of (with implant and at an advanced lab), and then there's POS fuel on top of it all. Is there significant profit to be made in invention?

I wish I had stolen that Hulk BPO when I had the chance from ASCN 7 years ago.
Gianath
Gallentian Legitimate Businessmen
#35 - 2013-08-31 19:24:05 UTC



[/quote]

I've been trying to find, in vain, a good resource on PI ever since I came back. I was told in a C5 I could "easily" pull 1bil/month per char. That's 3 bil of passive income per account if all 3 do PI. That's really good passive income, but I've not yet verified the validity of this claim.

Something else I must try is invention. I have 1mil+ gallantean ship datacores in RP stored, and 400k mechanical cores. I wanted to try my hand at Anshar inventing, but this **** is cray cray! To make it really profitable I'd have to buy MULTIPLE Obelisk BPO, which take a full month to make a BPC out of (with implant and at an advanced lab), and then there's POS fuel on top of it all. Is there significant profit to be made in invention? [/quote]


The amount of profit you can get from PI is directly proportional to the amount of time you spend fiddling with extractors and moving products between plants. I hate how people claim you can get a billion ISK per month for passive PI... if you are making 1 billion per month, you are spending hours per day doing it, and are probably considering suicide half of that time.

Invention of modules, ammo and drones are profitable and require little startup capital.

Invention of ships require lots of startup money, lots of time to copy, and you have tons of competition from people who are also attracted to the idea of building their own ships. It's not hard to find pretty much any ship you want on the market for below build costs, especially all of the ones which were rebalanced recently. You can probably sell certain combat ships for a profit around FW hubs, but anywhere else I would start small and don't overproduce anything because you may be sitting on it a long time.
Eric Raeder
No Fee Too High
#36 - 2013-09-01 19:38:18 UTC
El-ahrairah wrote:
https://sites.google.com/site/eveplanetaryplanner/home/how-to

i use eve planetary planner alot as it has a good tool that pulls prices from the market.

Atm there is still profit from selling pl level 1 and there is more than enough profit shipping pl 1 off the planet to a factory planet even taking in account high sec taxes of 10%.
running on a maxed skilled pi toon i have found running the extraction of 2 days runs close to the planets small refresh rate, so moving the extraction mining units isnt too much of a headache.
in highsec i wouldnt bother much doing pi in any system above 0.6. low, null, and wormhole's are the best as the extraction rate is a damn lot higher. You just have to sweet talk the locals for the lower tax rates, if your running in low just remember 2 warp stabs are your friend.



Followed your link, reading the rather nice "how-to" guide, the planetary planner looks potentially useful. But I can't get it to work. When I try to run it it tells me I need Eve Cache parser DLL, which I can't get to work, and I am reluctant to fiddle with a lot for fear I'll damage my file structure.

As far as lowsec safety goes, I find warp stabs pretty useless, the pirates in my favorite lowsec area like to use hictors for tackling, which have infinite warpjam strength. Instead, I use MWD cloak trick, which works fine unless they manage to get lucky and have a ship too close to my jump in point for cloak to work. The Epithal coming in Odyssey 1.1 will be great for this, unlike current T1 indys it will have enough grid to easily fit a 10mn MWD.
Jaelkus
Mission Ready Mining
Fly Fearless
#37 - 2013-09-01 22:23:34 UTC
I remember when i first stumbled upon your guide 2 and a half years ago and thus began my plummet into the carebear world. at the time i was a fail pvp pilot/missioner and feeling burned out and then my corp was talking about mining and linked your guide i studied the guide in detail and have now become the mining resources guy for pretty much every corp i have joined. hi sec low sec and yes i even pulled it out in null sec. I have made speeches and written papers so to speak to all sorts of different level of leadership on recomendations and courses of action for getting regular players out in belts to mine even if they cant fly barges or exhumers. and would be happy to contribute be it a little late, I have venture stories i have barge stories i have exhumer stories I have orca stories (the adventures of the battle orca) i even have rorqual stories and experience measuring in thousand of hours in each ship and i can tell you upone wall dow nthe other all over what fits what what works what doesnt why how where ewhen how much and how long.
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
#38 - 2013-09-03 09:02:22 UTC
As someone who was inspired by your mining guide many years ago, I would really like to help.

A little input I can make is on streamlining of the play, as this is from my personal experience.

1. I used to play EvE a LOT before (like until a few years ago) as I had very flexible schedule.

2. But having held a full-time employment for a while now (rather than freelance jobs) and formed a family maybe 3 years ago or so, my play time has become increasingly more limited due to RL stuff (mostly work + wife)

3. This big change forced me to adapt the way I approach the game, as I couldn't really spend much time on my gaming PC at home anymore (~1 hour a day, a few days a week)

4. The best tool I found was EvE Universe app available on iPhone, as it had a good EFT-like functionality. (I heard Android has something similar called Aura)

5. I spend about 2 hours on the bus every day commuting to and from work (1 hour each way) so this was the time I used to 'plan' my next gaming session.

6. I would make notes and set reminders of things to do in EvE (e.g. cash in LP, run invention jobs, move stuff X from A to B), prioritise them, and save ship fittings to try out in my next play session for PvP activities.

7. So when I actually get an hour to play in the evening every now and then, I know exactly what I'm going to do (or at least have a few options to choose from depending on my mood). I don't need to sit in front of my computer thinking what new ships to buy and how to fit it, because I've already done that on my phone. I just log on, buy things quickly, fit them and I'm ready to fly off to my familiar hunting ground.

8. I have a high sec indy alt near my research POS & production station, ready to run the jobs as soon as I log in, and my PvP alt docked in low-sec with variety of fitted ships that I can take any time and fly into hot zone in less than a minute from I log in.

9. Above things need a bit of planning, but planning things out and having things organised maximises the fun you can have in a very limited play time.

10. For new players of course it's great fun to explore the vast space of EvE and wander around aimlessly, and this experience is very precious when you look back after you become a vet (the true sense of exploration we often miss now).

11. However, for someone limited with play time I strongly recommend finding an area where you can really familiarise with the surroundings. For example, as for PvP hunting, when I enter a system I have d-scan spots. If no ship shows up from these scanning spots, it means the locals are either cloaked or in stations. No need to waste time then, I move to the next system and the next scanning spots & repeat this over a few systems. Having multiple bookmarks around belts and gates, while time consuming to set up, really speeds up your PvP adventures.

This became longer than I intended, but simple key points

A. Use your AFK spare time (on the bus, subway, coffee break or whatever) to have your play session and ship load outs planned.

B. Settle yourself in an area, have ships ready, have good bookmarks, know the locals to attack and avoid, whatever - main point is that you get yourself to the point where you can confidently say to anyone 'yeah I know this space'.

Anyway, that's about it for now. Perhaps too general, but hopefully helpful for full time working & family rearing noobs. ;)
B.


P3po
Perkone
Caldari State
#39 - 2013-09-03 13:20:55 UTC
I can help out with carriers building in low sec, but ... there is not much of super secret info you would not know allready :)

Renting system in 0.0 and then ratting/mining/PI is also very famous option used lately to earn easy ISK.

In Fountain, you can earn 100M/hour pure bounty with 500M expensive Tengu. (Ok, it is harder to get into fountain now, but this was just an example).
voetius
Grundrisse
#40 - 2013-09-03 19:39:19 UTC

When I started playing I read your guide and although I never went that route and only started looking at Industry stuff recently I was impressed by the amount of information there and quality of editing.

A couple of random things:

Wormholes : there is a very good pdf around called Everything Wormhole, has a nice appendix on capital ships as well

General eve info : IskTheGuide 400 page free pdf, proofed and edited, linked in the evelopedia

drone minerals and meta 0 drops have been removed as you have already found out. Meta prices from mission drops have been severely reduced due to a) the Noctis effect and b) mouse-over pricing info.

Welcome back :)
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