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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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SOL Ranger
SOL.
#5661 - 2013-10-16 01:30:17 UTC
Anize Oramara wrote:

...
Don't be afraid of the new or the change. That's what keeps eve alive.
...


I am for change, when it is well thought through and carefully planned without causing a whole ship class to become something entirely different and quite opposite of what people have used them for, because of a gimmick module and the balance costs it requires.
I have legitimate concerns because I actually fly a Marauder since a while now and have absolutely no desire to sit in an immobile bunker or a sluggish pretend Marauder when these changes are launched.

Anize Oramara wrote:

Soooo.... What about Dreads and Triage Carriers? Since it is so similar then all of this ranting and raving applies to them as well right? Are you in fact calling for Siege and Triage to be removed as well or is it ok because it's confined to low/null/WH? Does Dreads and Carriers Reduce the Sandboxieness of this game?


Soooo.... you decided to just address the whole post whilst imagining it was about something else entirely, dreads to be precise, brilliant, I am truly impressed.

My "rant" has nothing to do with dreads nor what they do, I've even mentioned previously that the Bastion could be workable for some other ship, just not the Marauder because it just doesn't fit.

I'm addressing Marauders which are being pigeon holed into a bunker role, I loathe the very idea the way it is being done, to a previously quite speedy and versatile ship in my case, the Vargur.
I've been waiting and hoping for further progressive iteration on it with no avail, so I now explained my POV in hopes of them actually realizing that maybe the Bastion Marauder isn't a good idea.

You do understand that I and many others who do not wish to sit pinned to space will instead need to move from the Vargur etc. to the pirate ships instead, Machariel for example, just because of this change.

I will no longer be able to fly the ship I trained for because it is being turned into something completely different which I do not wish to bunker in.

The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5662 - 2013-10-16 01:35:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
SOL Ranger wrote:

I am directly aiming my critique at the Bastion and what using it entails, moving away from the bastion as the center of the topic and saying that not using it is an alternative solution is missing the point and as it happens, not true.
Bastion will be mandatory, the mobility of Marauders among other things is already being nerfed, so choices are in fact being limited.
Anyone planning not to use the Bastion will find any faction/pirate ship will easily outperform Marauders; Marauders are deliberately being designed around the Bastion and you will have a hard time not using it because of the costs in the balancing.

The hull issues have been acknowledged and we will see what becomes of that, but that neither detracts nor adds to my response to you.
SOL Ranger wrote:

Additionally, my gripe with the Bastion is not the idea that it isn't usable for at least something like gimmick PvP, it is that the module has severe flaws and it should be abolished as it currently is being presented, more so due to the fact it presents no actual interesting or fun mechanics to speak of when speaking of following the Marauder role.

Immunities:

Conditional immunities ignore the very idea of having established mechanics which exist have any effect on the results, which means you have balanced E-war for the whole game but then decide to circumvent this mechanic by a simple conditional rule which states, here the rules don't apply, effectively creating a second rule, every immunity is another rule and exception added to the first.

Would you support missiles which always applied full damage through a conditional and ignored signature radius/exp velocity? No you wouldn't, exact same thing, the proper way to do it is to follow mechanics in a relatively reasonable manner.

If in this case E-war is too powerful then rebalance it, revisit the mechanics and alter them to function as intended, just do not create new ways to avoid the problems.

E-war immunity ignores the sandbox mechanics for E-war, which is a use for sensor strength to determine efficiency, if there was a legit suggestion they would give Marauders a relatively high sensor strength in Bastion and not just outright cut them out from the sandbox in that specific area; Sandbox mechanics rely on the fact that they apply without selective interpretation causing meta rule sets, effectively destroying the whole concept in the process.

RR/assistance lockout ignores the idea of partaking in more complex parts of multiplayer gaming, it is a counterproductive limitation at best, promoting locked out solo play is out of touch with the whole concept of MMOs regardless of the fact if it is ignoring how RR works with mere conditionals.
I seem to be missing the statement of Ewar being to powerful. If it was you are correct that adding a module to a single line of ships is as much of a non-solution as they come. So correct that I would challenge the idea that it's even remotely reasonable to correlate the introduction of bastion with the strength of ewar as a whole.

That aside, conditional immunities again do not negate sandbox effects. When properly applied they give up one thing for another, forcing choices which give rise to new interactions. The Bastion accomplishes this. A meta rule set is similarly not an issue as it only creates more dynamic interactions. Rather it's the range of existing conditional rules that provide variety and purpose to the existing elements in game. And just because an interaction can be negated under isolated circumstances doesn't mean that any sandbox element is negated. The sandbox element is simply being free to choose tools to fit your purpose and use them to the best of your ability. Giving more tools means more interactions.

And if conditional rules is an issue that means we have a lot to remove that is already in game, among them triage carriers which already prevent incoming RR yet have found their place within the sandbox without complaint.

SOL Ranger wrote:

Again, if you won't be using Bastion then you'll be better off in other ships by default, there is no choice between having the Bastion module or not, it is a choice between Bastion Marauder and Pirate Battleship, the live Marauders will no longer exist.

If you're even remotely interested in fluent mobility and kiting you will pick a Pirate Battleship.

The only choice you are getting with Bastion is, will I deploy here and die or win?

You are getting this one choice to substitute all the mobile intricacies of EVE combat, E-war threats and even quite simply the consequences of taking damage in many situations, successful tanking of damage becoming a guarantee rather than an active process of skill to manage a capacitor and avoid excess damage in multitudes of ways

The Ignoring of the whole concept of support in terms of remote assistance in situations where you should have need for it is one of the greatest flaws in Bastion design, when you are deployed.

It literally defines the idea of picking the worst of all possible scenarios into one module currently.


The Bastion undeniably promotes poor play styles, it throws every common sense defensive or offensive maneuver/adjustment out of the window and simplifies everything.


You are greatly oversimplifying what can be done with the bastion + MJD combo alone much less combining this ships abilities with others. And that is before the potential aspects being returned to the hulls. There are also some interesting assumptions in there. For instance as I understand Bastion does not protect against cap warfare yet you claim tanking need only concern cap management before bastion. Also you are removing your own capacity to negate damage while using bastion, and creating a situation in which you can easily be locked down to enable additional DPS from re-enforcements to assist in breaking your tank.
The Ironfist
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5663 - 2013-10-16 01:37:13 UTC
Anyone who thinks this will make em viable for PVP is rather stupid. Why? 750+mil price tag in for that you get what? A ship that without a bastion mode will be less then it is now? ****** resists useless bonus's. Worst of all bastion mode does not add anything meaningful to the ship the resists and stuff are nice but falloff/optimal ? really?

If someone ever uses that kind of ship with bastion modes outside of highsec I'll be the first to throw dreads on it and watch em make nice explosions. 1 Minute is more then enough time to light a cyno and kill 2 of these per dread.. o7 A "pvp" ship exclusively for high-sec good fight fossi I expected more.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#5664 - 2013-10-16 01:58:04 UTC
Don't get too excited about moving to the Pirate battleships; those are no doubt up on the chopping block next...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

SOL Ranger
SOL.
#5665 - 2013-10-16 02:03:11 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

You are greatly oversimplifying what can be done with the bastion + MJD combo alone much less combining this ships abilities with others. And that is before the potential aspects being returned to the hulls.


You can jump around by 100km every minute, not a great feature in itself, it needs refining as well.

In PvP that amounts to nothing as it will take 10s after the moment you've clicked bastion and you're not going to jump anywhere except the hospital bed, fleet tactics with these will be rare if at all.
In PvE that provides nothing because you will be sitting put all the time until everything is killed, the Bastion overtank guarantees that, why jump around when you don't need to, other BS without the mindless tank of Bastion will actually use their MJD actively though.


I'm not really oversimplifying.


I agree that what CCP might bring back to the hulls might make the situation less dire, however I contest the very nature of the Bastion.

The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#5666 - 2013-10-16 02:38:51 UTC
SOL Ranger wrote:
I agree that what CCP might bring back to the hulls might make the situation less dire, however I contest the very nature of the Bastion.

What "might" they bring back? Un-nerfing the speed?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#5667 - 2013-10-16 03:01:21 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
SOL Ranger wrote:
I agree that what CCP might bring back to the hulls might make the situation less dire, however I contest the very nature of the Bastion.

What "might" they bring back? Un-nerfing the speed?


That would help vargur to bypass bastion module altogether it simply doesn't benefit from it in way of dps projection,at best it got back what TE nerf took away from it and in any situation where enemies are not throwing them self on your anchored guns bastion is nerf to Vargur DPS not buff.

It lost speed agility drones hull points for 5km range and immobile over tank some ppl just don't see that as benefit and when ppl realize that their new marauders are performing worse there will be some scratching on head of wtf happened.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

SOL Ranger
SOL.
#5668 - 2013-10-16 03:05:49 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

...
For instance as I understand Bastion does not protect against cap warfare yet you claim tanking need only concern cap management before bastion.
...


Lets be clear, I did not claim that bastion tanking wasn't vulnerable to capacitor warfare, I strictly stated when only tanking damage it required no real active management, simply because it is so efficient and effective.

SOL Ranger wrote:

...successful tanking of damage becoming a guarantee rather than an active process of skill to manage a capacitor and avoid excess damage in multitudes of ways


The stronger your tank is the less cap intensive it will be to stay alive in most engagements, this does not alter the effect of capacitor warfare nor was it meant as a comment on it.

You will not run out of capacitor unless you leave an XL booster running, you could just as easily tank PvE with a smaller cap stable booster and never think about the tanking again, never needing to look at the capacitor status nor at your HP, never needing to worry about moving to kite or avoid more damage, everything is tanked by automation as long as you activate the booster and sit in Bastion.


Zombie Mode, aka. Bastion.

The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.

SOL Ranger
SOL.
#5669 - 2013-10-16 03:12:15 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

What "might" they bring back? Un-nerfing the speed?


Last note I read was about confirming drones might need some more space +50m3 and something about checking what else might be reintroduced, so still waiting.

The Vargur requires launcher hardpoints, following tempest tradition.

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#5670 - 2013-10-16 03:16:04 UTC
SOL Ranger wrote:
Last note I read was about confirming drones might need some more space +50m3 and something about checking what else might be reintroduced, so still waiting.

T2 resists would be nice.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5671 - 2013-10-16 03:57:35 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
The Ironfist wrote:
Anyone who thinks this will make em viable for PVP is rather stupid. Why? 750+mil price tag in for that you get what? A ship that without a bastion mode will be less then it is now? ****** resists useless bonus's. Worst of all bastion mode does not add anything meaningful to the ship the resists and stuff are nice but falloff/optimal ? really?

If someone ever uses that kind of ship with bastion modes outside of highsec I'll be the first to throw dreads on it and watch em make nice explosions. 1 Minute is more then enough time to light a cyno and kill 2 of these per dread.. o7 A "pvp" ship exclusively for high-sec good fight fossi I expected more.



We get a ship that is able to tank just about any small roaming gang you find in low/null, a ship that gets 60km range with blasters, a ship that is able to re-position itself 100km from its target while keeping lock faster than any other battleship. They are very effective snipers both in and out of bastion. Its a ship you cannot jam, damp or tracking disrupt which is going to be very important come November.

Individually, the Golem is going to be the biggest winner because of the light and rapid launchers which allows it to engage smaller sized ships. A light rapid launcher/neut Golem rips apart frigate/destroyer gangs of up to 30 solo. In gangs the rail Kronos when coupled with the new E-war frigs can snipe enemy tackle out of the sky long before they can get anywhere near and then whittle down larger buffer fit ships (canes HACs etc) while being able to dictate range or just sit there and tank them.

A 1 billion price tag is nothing.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5672 - 2013-10-16 04:01:07 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
280 pages..

I think this proves quite definitively which player group is the loudest...



They scream the loudest yet the test these ships the least.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#5673 - 2013-10-16 04:13:47 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
We get a ship that is able to tank just about any small roaming gang you find in low/null

What about mid-size gangs? (ie: cruisers)

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5674 - 2013-10-16 04:32:13 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
We get a ship that is able to tank just about any small roaming gang you find in low/null

What about mid-size gangs? (ie: cruisers)


The new Rapid heavies for the Golem.

Blaster and rail Kronos does just fine with the support of a small gang of E-war frigs. My favorite is a Kronos, two webbing bonused frigs, a scimi or two and combat rooks. Rail Kronos kills their frigates/destroyers at range and then the rooks and kronos get to play at close range. A pair of rail Kronos deployed 80km apart can cover each other. I can easily see them being used by big fleets to cover bubbled gates and stations when locking down a system.

Pulse do well on the paladin but it can also use beams as a full blown sniper.

Haven't tested the Vargur as I don't like auto cannons or arty.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#5675 - 2013-10-16 04:33:39 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
The new Rapid heavies for the Golem.

Question re: Bastion. Does it cycle continuously once you activate it?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5676 - 2013-10-16 04:41:43 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The new Rapid heavies for the Golem.

Question re: Bastion. Does it cycle continuously once you activate it?


To date my fights have lasted less than a minute or I needed to re-position myself so I cant honestly say. I would expect it to continue to cycle.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#5677 - 2013-10-16 04:50:16 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
The Ironfist wrote:
Anyone who thinks this will make em viable for PVP is rather stupid. Why? 750+mil price tag in for that you get what? A ship that without a bastion mode will be less then it is now? ****** resists useless bonus's. Worst of all bastion mode does not add anything meaningful to the ship the resists and stuff are nice but falloff/optimal ? really?

If someone ever uses that kind of ship with bastion modes outside of highsec I'll be the first to throw dreads on it and watch em make nice explosions. 1 Minute is more then enough time to light a cyno and kill 2 of these per dread.. o7 A "pvp" ship exclusively for high-sec good fight fossi I expected more.



We get a ship that is able to tank just about any small roaming gang you find in low/null, a ship that gets 60km range with blasters, a ship that is able to re-position itself 100km from its target while keeping lock faster than any other battleship. They are very effective snipers both in and out of bastion. Its a ship you cannot jam, damp or tracking disrupt which is going to be very important come November.

Individually, the Golem is going to be the biggest winner because of the light and rapid launchers which allows it to engage smaller sized ships. A light rapid launcher/neut Golem rips apart frigate/destroyer gangs of up to 30 solo. In gangs the rail Kronos when coupled with the new E-war frigs can snipe enemy tackle out of the sky long before they can get anywhere near and then whittle down larger buffer fit ships (canes HACs etc) while being able to dictate range or just sit there and tank them.

A 1 billion price tag is nothing.


100km every 70 seconds using MJD & Bastion. I say 70 because you have to wait for the MJD to activate also.
So.... you are going at.... 1429m/s.
A 100MN Machariel goes 1505m/s
A Machariel is able to dictate range BETTER than a Bastion using Marauder.
It also has superior damage (25% infact assuming BS 5).
And is able to actually adjust rather than being locked into situations. And can be remote repped.
And has 100 drone bandwidth making heavies/sentries practical as well as room for spare lights.

The Marauder.... Can be immune to Ewar, but gives up any chance of avoiding tackle by any means other than killing them. And can't use mobility to negate any kind of tackle transversal. It does have superior local reps, which give it a small niche role in tiny gang sizes, but it doesn't scale up at all and any kind of logi give just as much rep power.

The current Bastion mode is not workable. And the hull nerfs when not in Bastion mode mean the hull becomes useless. Even if they restore everything but the drone bay back to current TQ status, these ships STILL do not measure up. They do not have the meaningful DPS in or out of Bastion to be worth their price tag. Nor is their mobility any better than most other BS.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5678 - 2013-10-16 05:01:18 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:


100km every 70 seconds using MJD & Bastion. I say 70 because you have to wait for the MJD to activate also.
So.... you are going at.... 1429m/s.
A 100MN Machariel goes 1505m/s
A Machariel is able to dictate range BETTER than a Bastion using Marauder.
It also has superior damage (25% infact assuming BS 5).
And is able to actually adjust rather than being locked into situations. And can be remote repped.
And has 100 drone bandwidth making heavies/sentries practical as well as room for spare lights.

The Marauder.... Can be immune to Ewar, but gives up any chance of avoiding tackle by any means other than killing them. And can't use mobility to negate any kind of tackle transversal. It does have superior local reps, which give it a small niche role in tiny gang sizes, but it doesn't scale up at all and any kind of logi give just as much rep power.

The current Bastion mode is not workable. And the hull nerfs when not in Bastion mode mean the hull becomes useless. Even if they restore everything but the drone bay back to current TQ status, these ships STILL do not measure up. They do not have the meaningful DPS in or out of Bastion to be worth their price tag. Nor is their mobility any better than most other BS.


Firstly, the mach is getting nerfed, most likely in the next few weeks.

Secondly, these are not large gang ships, they are meant for smaller gang work.

DPS is in line or better than t1 BS with better damage application at longer ranges. slap some webs on that mach and suddenly its not moving all that fast, keeping range on it will be easy and given that they sport buffer tanks you can just munch away at it. It will die long before you run out of reps.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#5679 - 2013-10-16 05:09:55 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


Firstly, the mach is getting nerfed, most likely in the next few weeks.

Secondly, these are not large gang ships, they are meant for smaller gang work.

DPS is in line or better than t1 BS with better damage application at longer ranges. slap some webs on that mach and suddenly its not moving all that fast, keeping range on it will be easy and given that they sport buffer tanks you can just munch away at it. It will die long before you run out of reps.


Please show me how a Marauder is better DPS than a T1 BS, given most T1 BS have larger drone bays. Also, if you can web the mach, it can scram & web you back, meaning no MJD, and you are still slower than the Mach at that point. So, no, neither of those points are applicable.
Additionally if it has buffer tank, that's because it has Logi with it, while in Bastion mode, you can only use local reps. If it's solo, it's not going to be buffer tanking. Meaning your better reps are up against it's better DPS. Ok, in a straight up firefight in bastion mode you might 'just' outshoot a Mach assuming you are both equally fit. But the Mach will have plenty of time to disengage and escape if that is the case. While you in the Marauder do not.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5680 - 2013-10-16 05:21:08 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:


Please show me how a Marauder is better DPS than a T1 BS, given most T1 BS have larger drone bays. Also, if you can web the mach, it can scram & web you back, meaning no MJD, and you are still slower than the Mach at that point. So, no, neither of those points are applicable.
Additionally if it has buffer tank, that's because it has Logi with it, while in Bastion mode, you can only use local reps. If it's solo, it's not going to be buffer tanking. Meaning your better reps are up against it's better DPS. Ok, in a straight up firefight in bastion mode you might 'just' outshoot a Mach assuming you are both equally fit. But the Mach will have plenty of time to disengage and escape if that is the case. While you in the Marauder do not.


90% of the time you don't launch drones when in a BS in a small gang aside from lights. When sniping you don't tend to have any due to the ranges. The firepower is exactly the same from the turrets/missiles or a little better but with better damage application at longer ranges.

Show me a mach with 75.9km webs before bonuses.

No mach I have ever seen fits an active tank outside of pve. Its too cap hungry, requires too much fitting room, provides too little buffer and is far too easy to cap out.