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[Rubicon] Marauder rebalancing

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Author
M1k3y Koontz
THE AESIR.
#2181 - 2013-09-04 20:49:04 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:

So you take ships that were at least pretty good for PVE, even if they kind of stunk for PVP, and now made them so they suck for both.


Marauders are IN NO WAY being nerfed for PVE.

A loss of a tank bonus, which is gained by if you use Bastion module and then some. (also giving you EWar immunity and a range bonus) in exchange for an 82.5% web bonus sounds fair enough.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2182 - 2013-09-04 20:50:10 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
you forgot to point out how half arsed the web bonuses are, too.

82.5% webs are still pretty significant.
M1k3y Koontz
THE AESIR.
#2183 - 2013-09-04 20:51:39 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
maGz wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.


Let me get this straight - web bonus, mjd bonus and range bonuses... really? What exactly do you want these abominations to do?


you forgot to point out how half arsed the web bonuses are, too.


82% webs, totally half assed Roll

The web bonus makes sense with the bastion mode, if that is the direction CCP is going. If they are sticking to bastion mode as is, and it seems that way, drop the range bonus for tracking and do something else with the MJD bonus.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

maGz
Hookers and Blackjack II
#2184 - 2013-09-04 20:52:06 UTC  |  Edited by: maGz
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
you forgot to point out how half arsed the web bonuses are, too.

82.5% webs are still pretty significant.


And totally useful when I MJD 100km away every 60 sec and blap stuff with my 50km Neutrons... (yay)

EDIT: Why no pacefalm smilie? ShockedSadRoll
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2185 - 2013-09-04 20:53:20 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.

We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:


  • Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.

  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.


I will change the OP to match the changes.


Wow,

So you take ships that were at least pretty good for PVE, even if they kind of stunk for PVP, and now made them so they suck for both.

How do you figure? Seems the resist increases make up for the loss of the rep bonus and they all get web bonuses. Granted the 2 that had them got their bonus reduced, but the effect is still very significant. Outside of drone capabilities most of the ships have only gained.

The resist bonuses are worthless for 75% of the missions you would try to run, and in exchange for them the ships gave up 37.5% of their tank, 25% of their speed, gained 20% more mass and lost 10% HP.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#2186 - 2013-09-04 20:53:41 UTC
whats truly happening:
art team: "hey we made a super cool animation for marauder this will solve everything"
ytterbum: "yeah that sound cool but lets add some stats to it"
.
.
players: "oh shiny thingies that dont solve the main problems with the ship class, **** the animation give us a real boost"
.
.
.
.
.
.
ytterbum: "hey art team the players dont want to see our cool animation they rather want a real boost"
art team: "**** them we spent so much time doing this we have to use it"
ytterbum: "ok lets try to mess around with the stats again without solving the problem agaim"
Just Lilly
#2187 - 2013-09-04 20:54:24 UTC
+1 Warp Strength, please
Attack Battleship agility / velocity, pretty please
Powered by Nvidia GTX 690
Aliventi
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry.
Mouth Trumpet Cavalry
#2188 - 2013-09-04 20:55:32 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Time for another update.
  • We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.

  • And here I was hoping for some solo/small gang active rep fun since I couldn't be remote repped...
    Eternal Error
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #2189 - 2013-09-04 20:56:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternal Error
    Golem having web AND TP bonus is ridiculous.

    Scrap bastion mode entirely, especially since you've realized that full T2 resists on marauder base stats is the way to go.

    Boost sensor strength, and keep the changes involving boosting pg/cpu.

    I'm not entirely sold on giving all four of them (or three if you come to your senses and don't give it to the golem) web bonuses, but it's not that bad.
    Tyberius Franklin
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #2190 - 2013-09-04 20:58:08 UTC
    maGz wrote:
    Tyberius Franklin wrote:
    Dave Stark wrote:
    you forgot to point out how half arsed the web bonuses are, too.

    82.5% webs are still pretty significant.


    And totally useful when I MJD 100km away every 60 sec and blap stuff with my 50km Neutrons... (yay)

    Sure, the applications on the bonuses aren't complementary but that in no way makes the bonus lackluster for when you do use it. Incursion marauders won't likely be using Bastion+MJD but will benefit from increased resists and web bonuses. Both will benefit from the application bonuses.
    Nam Dnilb
    Universal Frog
    #2191 - 2013-09-04 21:00:28 UTC
    Ravasta Helugo wrote:
    Note that EM and Thermal are remaining the exact same as current. The Kin helps slightly with Gurista. Exp helps significantly with Angels. But that's all she wrote.


    Imma shootin' Guristas and Angels with mah Lazors! (said nobody, ever)
    Bullet Therapist
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #2192 - 2013-09-04 21:01:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Bullet Therapist
    I kind of feel like marauders are being pushed into so many different directions here to try to fill roles that either other ships fill better, or don't really exist in the first place. I know CCP is trying, but it all seems so screwed up right now.

    Instead of concentrating so hard on making marauders wildly different from pirate battleships and other parts of the ship line-up why don't they follow the rest of the t2 lineup, and make what changes are needed to keep them on course.

    For instance, to separate them from pirate battleships look at what pirate battleships do well. All of the pirate ships have great dps, most are fairly fast (with the machariel being very fast) and three of them have fantastic ewar bonuses. Why not keep this to pirate battleships? If they need to be reworked a little then do so during the pirate rebalance, but keep things like 90% webs, web range, a neuts to pirate battleships.

    Whats left over now for marauders? Well why not follow the assault ship/command ship lineup. Keep the marauder's dps about the same, but emphasize their tank and application, but do so without utterly pidgeonholeing the class. Get rid of all of all of the ewar bonuses. ALL of them. No bonus to webs, none to target painters. Just drop them. If we want them, we'll fit them, just don't make us feel like we have to in order to optimize the ship. When you think about ship bonuses realize that people are going to use long and short range weapons on the ship. Keep this in mind. A web bonus is less of a help to people using long range weapons than it is to someone who uses short range ones.

    Here's a sample of something that makes sense.

    GOLEM

    • Role Bonus: 100% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage. 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay. Can fit Bastion modules.

    • Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus:
    10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity
    5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level

    • Marauders Skill Bonus:
    5% bonus to the cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
    4% bonus to shield resistances per level


    • Slot layout: 6H, 7M, 5L; 0 turrets, 4 launchers
    • Fittings: 8500 PWG, 715 CPU
    • Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8000 / 6100 / 7000
    • Shield resists: 0% EM / 50% EX / 70% KIN / 80% THERM
    • Armor resists: 50% EM / 10% EX / 62.5% KIN / 86.25% THERM
    • Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6325 / 1150s / 5.5 cap/s
    • Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 85 m/s / .12 / 114195000 / 19s
    • Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 50
    • Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 95km / 105 / 10
    • Sensor strength: 28 Gravimetric
    • Signature radius: 450

    And a bastion module that makes sense. Its pretty powerful, but again, its balanced against the fact that you COMMIT. No logi, can't move, can still be neuted, and anyone can run away from you.

    BASTION MODULE

    • Increases shield and armor repair amount by 25%
    • Increases shield, armor and hull by 25%
    • Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25%
    • Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
    • Increases damage from large missiles and turrets by 25%
    • When activated, the bastion module repairs the marauder for 25% of its maximum capacitor, armor, shield, and hull hp.
    • Has a cycle time of 60 seconds.
    • When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot be remote assisted in any way
    • When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also

    When its activated, we're parked. We commit. When we turn this thing on its either win or die, so it better be worth it.

    Its useful with the bastion module. Its useful without it. It has enough slots to make good fitting choices. It can be buffer tanked or active tanked. It has good application, which can be made better with TPs or webs, but it doesn't NEED to fit them.
    Ravasta Helugo
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #2193 - 2013-09-04 21:02:11 UTC
    Nam Dnilb wrote:
    Ravasta Helugo wrote:
    Note that EM and Thermal are remaining the exact same as current. The Kin helps slightly with Gurista. Exp helps significantly with Angels. But that's all she wrote.


    Imma shootin' Guristas and Angels with mah Lazors! (said nobody, ever)

    Exactly.
    Tyberius Franklin
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #2194 - 2013-09-04 21:04:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
    Ravasta Helugo wrote:
    The resist bonuses are worthless for 75% of the missions you would try to run, and in exchange for them the ships gave up 37.5% of their tank, 25% of their speed, gained 20% more mass and lost 10% HP.
    10% HP isn't going to affect my PvE performance at all. The tank loss is partially made up in part by the resist increase, more if you're tanking against your racial resist strength. Add bastion and you're tanking 2x what you were prior. Also using a bastion+some of the new bonuses expands effective range to the point that mobility is far less of a concern.
    Ravasta Helugo
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #2195 - 2013-09-04 21:04:46 UTC
    Bullet Therapist wrote:
    I kind of feel like marauders are being pushed into so many different directions here to try to fill roles that either other ships fill better, or don't really exist in the first place. I know CCP is trying, but it all seems so screwed up right now.

    Instead of concentrating so hard on making marauders wildly different from pirate battleships and other parts of the ship line-up why don't they follow the rest of the t2 lineup, and make what changes are needed to keep them on course.

    For instance, to separate them from pirate battleships look at what pirate battleships do well. All of the pirate ships have great dps, most are fairly fast (with the machariel being very fast) and three of them have fantastic ewar bonuses. Why not keep this to pirate battleships? If they need to be reworked a little then do so during the pirate rebalance, but keep things like 90% webs, web range, a neuts to pirate battleships.

    Whats left over now for marauders? Well why not follow the assault ship/command ship lineup. Keep the marauder's dps about the same, but emphasize their tank and application, but do so without utterly pidgeonholeing the class. Get rid of all of all of the ewar bonuses. ALL of them. No bonus to webs, none to target painters. Just drop them. If we want them, we'll fit them, just don't make us feel like we have to in order to optimize the ship. When you think about ship bonuses realize that people are going to use long and short range weapons on the ship. Keep this in mind. A web bonus is less of a help to people using long range weapons than it is to someone who uses short range ones.

    Here's a sample of something that makes sense.

    GOLEM

    • Role Bonus: 100% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage. 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay. Can fit Bastion modules.

    • Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus:
    10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity
    5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level

    • Marauders Skill Bonus:
    7.5% bonus to the cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
    4% bonus to shield resistances per level


    • Slot layout: 6H, 7M, 5L; 0 turrets, 4 launchers
    • Fittings: 8500 PWG, 715 CPU
    • Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8000 / 6100 / 7000
    • Shield resists: 0% EM / 50% EX / 70% KIN / 80% THERM
    • Armor resists: 50% EM / 10% EX / 62.5% KIN / 86.25% THERM
    • Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6325 / 1150s / 5.5 cap/s
    • Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 85 m/s / .12 / 114195000 / 19s
    • Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 50
    • Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 95km / 105 / 10
    • Sensor strength: 28 Gravimetric
    • Signature radius: 450

    And a bastion module that makes sense.

    BASTION MODULE

    • Increases shield and armor repair amount by 25%
    • Increases shield, armor and hull by 25%
    • Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25%
    • Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
    • Increases damage from large missiles and turrets by 25%
    • When activated, the bastion module repairs the marauder for 25% of its maximum capacitor, armor, shield, and hull hp.
    • Has a cycle time of 60 seconds.
    • When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot be remote assisted in any way
    • When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also

    When its activated, we're parked. We commit. When we turn this thing on its either win or die, so it better be worth it.

    Its useful with the bastion module. Its useful without it. It has enough slots to make good fitting choices. It can be buffer tanked or active tanked. It has good application, which can be made better with TPs or webs, but it doesn't NEED to fit them.

    Ooooh, I like this idea.
    Dave Stark
    #2196 - 2013-09-04 21:07:33 UTC
    Tyberius Franklin wrote:
    Dave Stark wrote:
    you forgot to point out how half arsed the web bonuses are, too.

    82.5% webs are still pretty significant.


    i'll admit i didn't bother doing the maths but with the webs being that close why didn't ccp just give them a real web bonus so they are actually able to compete with pirate battleships?

    i mean, let's look at the kronos and a vindicator in an incursion setting (i love incursions)
    we're trading the superior dps and now superior webbing ability of the vindicator for t2 resits... which the vindicator makes up for by having 1 more mid slot for an extra invuln or EM amp, or whatever it needs.

    so really, the kronos is just a crap vindicator that generally just takes longer to train for since you won't really miss gal BS V on your vindi if you have more important things to train.

    *shrug*

    the only way these marauder changes actually going to be worth **** is if pirate battleships get unapolagetically bludgeoned with the nerf bat. that remains to be seen.
    Ravasta Helugo
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #2197 - 2013-09-04 21:08:45 UTC
    Tyberius Franklin wrote:
    10% HP isn't going to affect my PvE performance at all.


    It makes the ship 10% cheaper to gank.

    Quote:
    The tank loss is actually made up in part by the resist increase,


    No, it isn't. Because....

    Quote:
    more if you're tanking against your racial resist strength.


    Most of the time, you aren't. If you're Amarr, you NEVER are.

    Quote:
    Add bastion and you're tanking 2x what you were prior.

    1.45x, and it isn't worth it.

    Quote:
    Also using a bastion+some of the new bonuses expands effective range to the point that mobility is far less of a concern.

    Burning to gates is a huge isk/hr concern. As much as I love them, MJD make that very difficult, even with trig.
    zbaaca
    Republic Military Tax Avoiders
    #2198 - 2013-09-04 21:08:54 UTC  |  Edited by: zbaaca
    Bullet Therapist wrote:

    • Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus:
    10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity
    5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level

    • Marauders Skill Bonus:
    5% bonus to the cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
    4% bonus to shield resistances per level

    u messed up bonuses
    1st they similar 2nd 7.5% for velocity and 5% for radius


    and that i want on first post Cool

    Bugs are opportunities to cause unprecedented amounts of destruction. --Zorgn ♡♡♡

    Bullet Therapist
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #2199 - 2013-09-04 21:10:02 UTC
    zbaaca wrote:
    Bullet Therapist wrote:

    • Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus:
    10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity
    5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level

    • Marauders Skill Bonus:
    5% bonus to the cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
    4% bonus to shield resistances per level

    u messed up bonuses
    1st they similar 2nd 7.5% for velocity and 5% for radius


    yeah typo, fixed now.
    M1k3y Koontz
    THE AESIR.
    #2200 - 2013-09-04 21:13:08 UTC
    To mare wrote:
    whats truly happening:
    art team: "hey we made a super cool animation for marauder this will solve everything"
    ytterbum: "yeah that sound cool but lets add some stats to it"
    .
    .
    players: "oh shiny thingies that dont solve the main problems with the ship class, **** the animation give us a real boost"
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    ytterbum: "hey art team the players dont want to see our cool animation they rather want a real boost"
    art team: "**** them we spent so much time doing this we have to use it"
    ytterbum: "ok lets try to mess around with the stats again without solving the problem agaim"


    You got that right except for the players' line. We were all "5k dps tank? Bring it on!"
    Then CCP went "Oh crap someone made a 5k DPS tank with dual ASBs on a Vargur... better nerf the tank"

    And now we're at this Frankenstein of a ship class.

    CCP, rework Marauders again, keep the bastion mode, but make the bonuses work together. Don't give them two skirmish bonuses (range + MJD) and two brawler bonuses (web + immobile Bastion)

    How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.