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Why pay rent to live in Null Sec.
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Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#121 - 2013-08-29 23:37:36 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Deka Ekato wrote:
The renting of controlled Null Sec space, is a valid game mechanic, sure, and fair enough, but why pay rent to live there?

Are the riches of Null Sec so rewarding that people are willing to rent the right to live there?

Why reward those who control Null Sec with even more wealth that actually You have earned?

Why provide the Power Blocs with the opportunity to be able to pay for their subsriptions with Your ISK?

Hey, its only a game. You are bound to find other ways to enjoy Eve.

Why waste your ISK so as to have fun.

Don't allow the Power Blocs to brag, "Look at how much space we have". Make them earn the right to be able to say, "Look at how much space we can controll".

Move out of controlled Null Sec, and DON'T pay rent.

To clarify, this is an anti-renting thread.

Deka.


Watch the game mechanic changes coming in with the December iteration, and then you will see why people will be moving into null.

What changes do you mean?

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#122 - 2013-08-29 23:38:10 UTC
Skydell wrote:
I'd rather Iteron mine in 1.0 sec myself.

Groveling at the feet of an Overlord for "fun"? No, don't see it happening.

What you call groveling, we in the business of "dealing with other people" prefer to call "interaction."

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#123 - 2013-08-29 23:38:29 UTC
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Deka Ekato wrote:

Why....
More ISK, more opportunity, and more freedom.

This guy gets the scoop.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#124 - 2013-08-29 23:40:00 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
False. Most non-goons are completely ignorant of goons (and of most of the metagame), because they do not interact with other players, read the forums, or otherwise interact with out of game resources. We would like to grab those players, who are content to play a single player version of EVE Online in high sec, and put them in nullsec where they will make even more money than they already make doing missions.


Well....

1.) Doesn't that mean the goons are failing in their mission to bring their way of gameplay to EVE.

2.) Are people who don't read the forums, websites, or don't get ganked by the goons even in the market for renting?

I mean seriously, is the market for renting even that big? Are you going to get all those carebears into null?

And if they do but as soon as they lose some ships to say NCDOT raids targeting renters directly, won't they just go back to hi-sec?

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#125 - 2013-08-29 23:42:00 UTC
Cheng Musana wrote:
Nullsec ratting is better then running lvl4's in highsec. Cause you undock>warp to site and start shoting rats. And the salvage/loot is aswell direct infront of your door. Mining can aswell be more profitable due to the higher end ores you can get. Nullsec is offering more comfort and you dont have to worry that your ship is getting ganked while using expensive faction/deadspace fits.

And if you own the entire system all for yourself and your corp mates, there is an infinitely replenished source of high income sites which is pretty much inexhaustible. Short of some hilariously high player density numbers, it's not really possible to deplete a system of its profitable combat sites, at least as long as you are working together: if you're actively ratting, 2 dudes in high DPS ships focusing fire on individual rats will clear a site more than twice as fast, resulting in a net profit for cooperation. And this scales to any reasonable number, because of the way aggregate damage works and the fact that the sites instantly spawn again as soon as they are completed. The same goes with mining sites: sure, you can cherry pick the high-end ores; but, as soon as you deplete a site to its entirety, you are rewarded with a brand new site with the same mix of high-ends. And any system in the game, regardless of its truesec, can be upgraded to spawn all of the best sites, combat or mining.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#126 - 2013-08-29 23:46:00 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:

1.) Doesn't that mean the goons are failing in their mission to bring their way of gameplay to EVE?

"Different strokes for different folks." This message brought to you by the GoonSwarm Federation Department of **** YOU PAY ME.

Quote:
2.) Are people who don't read the forums, websites, or don't get ganked by the goons even in the market for renting?

The average player certainly isn't, but if even one person in a 50-man corp hears of this opportunity and introduces it to their corp mates then that is a potential for a 50-man corp to come make more money as well as line our coffers. It's a win-win.

Quote:
I mean seriously, is the market for renting even that big? Are you going to get all those carebears into null?

That is certainly the goal! Time will tell if we succed.

Quote:
And if they do but as soon as they lose some ships to say NCDOT raids targeting renters directly, won't they just go back to hi-sec?

That is also a possibility, but hopefully the rewards will outweigh the risk. I know that from my personal perspective, even when there are multiple AFK cloakers in system it is worth it for me to undock my fleet of mining ships and happily chomp on some ice until I inevitably get hotdropped after a few hours. How profitable would it be for an entire 50-man corp, or a guy running his own 38-man mining empire? Enough to outweigh the risk, or the cost.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#127 - 2013-08-29 23:47:51 UTC
Rhes wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Watch the game mechanic changes coming in with the December iteration, and then you will see why people will be moving into null.


Do you hear the black helicopters flying over your house at night?

A helicopter nearly landed on my house when I was 16, but it wasn't black. To this day I have no idea why.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#128 - 2013-08-29 23:47:53 UTC
Well I like your logic Lyris. You are the most logical and polite goon I have met on the forums thus far so I concede your points and agree with your sentiments.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#129 - 2013-08-29 23:52:32 UTC
Rhes wrote:
Excellent quintuple post.

Indeed. Good show, exceptional form.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#130 - 2013-08-29 23:53:11 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Well I like your logic Lyris. You are the most logical and polite goon I have met on the forums thus far so I concede your points and agree with your sentiments.

There is no reason why my burning hatred for everyone who isn't me should keep me from being civil.

I am space friend to all.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#131 - 2013-08-30 00:02:51 UTC
Donbe Scurred wrote:
As a renter, would part of the agreement be protection from those scary AFK clockers I was reading about in that other thread?Big smile

Leigh Akiga wrote:
Donbe Scurred wrote:
As a renter, would part of the agreement be protection from those scary AFK clockers I was reading about in that other thread?Big smile


Nobody can protect anyone from an AFK cloaker because they are AFK and cloaked you see?

Landlords may send people to deal with a hardcore gang in your area but there are no agreements to do so. Basically all the landlord is obligated to do is protect the sovreignty.

Lucas Kell wrote:
You joke, but with the risk of turning this into another cloaking thread, you guys always laugh at the "HAHA if he's AFK he can't kill you!" But the point that most try to raise which you don't answer, you just continue dropping the same overused joke is, how do you tell who is AFK, and who is a threat? The answer is, you can't tell, so any time you go out with a cloaker in system, you run a risk.

Personally I am willing to run that risk. By swapping into cheaper ships, I can usually make more isk than I'm likely to lose, but it's up to the individual to assess that risk and act accordingly.

But go ahead, keep recycling the same lame joke in every thread.

I just want to speak up as someone who is a fleet commander in GSF.

There is nothing that can be done, proactively, to force an AFK cloaker out of a system. You can bait him and kill him, but that requires you to be reactive. On the other hand, there is a great deal of action you can take to deal with a roaming gang of people who are harassing a system, and there are many people who love small gang warfare. Everyone from Mister Vee down to the newest skirmish commander loves to take out a group of Harpies or other things and have some brawls. I can say with pretty great confidence that if a renter is routinely harassed by a roaming gang, then there will be someone willing to lead a home defense gang to kill them. Of course, this works just like the police in real life: while the name implies vigilance and prevention, the actual function is to exact revenge and return order. It is entirely possible that renters will lose ships to some bad guys preying on them, especially if those renters are not aware of local or intel channels; but, there is a fairly low chance of the situation escalating beyond isolated ganks, because everyone in EVE is looking for a fight. If the bad guys bring a gang through renter space, then that's a gang that someone wants to kill. Renters can certainly organize to do it themselves, or, someone else who is in the mood to play some EVE Online will log in and lead a fleet to take care of it.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#132 - 2013-08-30 00:03:54 UTC
KuroVolt wrote:
People arent being forced to become nullsec renters.

Null sec coalitions are just providing that service for those that want it.

As for *making them work for it*: They took the space to begin with and they will most likely defend the space if it is being attacked, if the renters could take their own space they would not have to be renters now would they?



Do keep in mind that Im writing this from a neutral point of view as CVA does not rent out space.

Free market bootstraps Ron Paul 2012

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#133 - 2013-08-30 00:05:19 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
KuroVolt wrote:
People arent being forced to become nullsec renters.

Null sec coalitions are just providing that service for those that want it.

As for *making them work for it*: They took the space to begin with and they will most likely defend the space if it is being attacked, if the renters could take their own space they would not have to be renters now would they?

Most likely? A coalition formed to destroy GSF left a fight against the CFC to go save their renters.

Most likely indeed.

In case the peanut gallery missed this comment, Alavaria Fera is pointing out how important renters and their safety are to their landlords. You can't just abandon them to the wolves, or they will take their rental money and leave. The landlord has ample motivation to ensure the safety of rental sovereignty, and to make life as easy for the renters as is feasible.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#134 - 2013-08-30 00:06:40 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Deka Ekato wrote:

Why....
More ISK, more opportunity, and more freedom.


More... unchecked botting for the RMT farm?

I happen to know that you are very good with numbers from the numerous audits you have run.

Would you care to do the math on how much ISK it costs per month for the CFC to maintain sovereignty in its systems?

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#135 - 2013-08-30 00:09:47 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
KuroVolt wrote:
if the renters could take their own space they would not have to be renters now would they?


The threshold for taking your own space would be a lot lower without the giant landlord alliances; just saying.

Personally, I think the system is reasonable and the rent is generally low.

As has been mentioned in other posts, renting is a really great agreement that many of our own allies and members are strongly considering due to the low expectations and requirements. You can argue that the system is exploitative, and while I am not going to necessarily disagree with that assertion I would also point out that both parties in the arrangement are using the other. The renter gets access to "end game content," without having to invest the resources (time, players, ships, ISK, spreadsheets) that are necessary for the powerful alliances to provide and secure it. The landlord obviously gets money, for space he needs to own for various strategic reasons but which he otherwise has no use for. Who is being exploited? Both. And so long as they are each fine with that, then the free market is working as intended.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#136 - 2013-08-30 00:11:04 UTC
Zappity wrote:
"Why waste your ISK so as to have fun."

Um, did I read that right in the OP? I thought having fun was the point.

BREAK BREAK BREAK—Attention on deck, attention on pier: the fun lamp is secured, no fun allowed. I repeat: the fun lamp is secured, no fun allowed. That is all.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#137 - 2013-08-30 00:11:53 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Skydell wrote:
I'd rather Iteron mine in 1.0 sec myself.

Groveling at the feet of an Overlord for "fun"? No, don't see it happening.

Renting is nothing like that. This clearly shows you don't have a clue what you are talking about.
When you rent space, you pay your rent, which is essentially like tax but you pay in a single hit. After that, you do whatever you want. You don't have to go on ops, you don't have to defend your space. You simply rat or mine or roam or whatever you want.
If anything, Renters have less of an "overlord" structure than a regular corp in an alliance. A regular corp pays tax, has to go on OPs and has too defend their space.

Look at me looking dumb for having basically typed out a longer version of what this guy said on the second page.

Welp!

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#138 - 2013-08-30 00:12:58 UTC
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
The alternative is to simply start taking SOV and realize you can't defend it with your small Alliance. While I don't like it I do understand why people would rent a part of nullsec. Personally I believe that when you are financially able to rent, you can also exploit a C2-3 wormhole and have a "full" sense of system ownership, despite lack of sov.

Renting isn't slavery though, it's beneficial to both sides, but I am in agreement with OP that you do sink ISK making someone else richer. If this is something you disagree with in principle, don't rent. Stay poor. The game is more interesting solving problems with limited resources anyway.

I am curious, and please don't interpret this as a troll, as to what problems you are referencing?

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#139 - 2013-08-30 00:14:09 UTC
S'Way wrote:
The only sensible way to rent is by setting up an alt corp and renting an upgraded system, fill it by recruiting about a dozen active players who want to rat / mine etc in 0.0. Set corp tax to 20 or 25% then only log in on that alt occasionally to do corp admin stuff (pay bills / fuel a tower that you're reacting at etc).
The income from that easily pays the rental bill and gives you a couple of billion at least per month left over for doing almost nothing.

Invest that income into high-sec trading / research projects and you've got your very own ship replacement fund for any pvp / ganking you want to do (plus you're able to plex your accounts from that as well). Oh and much more freedom to still shoot at anyone you don't like (it's not like your corp admin alt will pvp) due to not having to comply with the renters blue list on your used pvp characters.

You can also do this in empire and recruit L4 mission runners, but with lower tax rates, the income isn't as good but it's still respectable if you can't afford the initial investment to rent in 0.0.


... Do you have an alt/main in RAZOR Alliance? 'Cos this is pretty much exactly what a guy is doing right now.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#140 - 2013-08-30 00:16:11 UTC
S'Way wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Best of luck finding people that won't go monkey **** at 25% tax and no active leadership.

You'd be surprised just how many are willing to join at 20% with no CTA's or any "must attend" corp ops. If you want to set it to 25% just be willing to carrier jump stuff they need once a week.
There's a huge number of high-sec people who want to try 0.0 without any forced corp ops / cta's. The no active leadership isn't an issue as long as your recruitment policy catches potential awoxers (full api / proper checks etc needed). Most of them just want to rat or mine in peace.

This is pretty much it. People want to dip their toes into nullsec and see how big the ticks really are for ratting, how much they can make from mining the high-end ores, how much better the exploration sites are, and so on. Or they have their entire, Machiavellian scheme planned out in advance to make money off of recruiting other folks to do that for them. Whatever. Either way, the point here is that renting is a great option for some people.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn