These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Someone has a 'little' Napoleon complex..

First post
Author
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#161 - 2013-08-30 05:10:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:


No, you are suggesting that we leave our morality (which is an inseparable part of who we are) at the login screen. And that would be fine and possible, if the actions that we took in-game had no external effect. But for whatever reason, the actions in-game obviously do have external effects. That is the reason we play the game at all.

Your suggestion is analagous to dressing up in a gorilla suit and beating someone to death, then taking off the suit and expecting not to be judged for your actions because, after all, you were a gorilla. We are suggesting that, no, you're a murderer.

It's possible to just play the game and still hurt someone's feelings, just like it's possible to just play ice hockey and still break someone's leg, but if you asked most ice hockey players, I'd bet most of them would tell you they'd rather lose the game than break their opponent's leg. They would put their moral integrity above winning the game. And, even rarer than someone willing to break another person's leg to win would be someone who was willing to LOSE so long as they were able to break someone elses' leg. Similarly, when you pay effort, time, money, ISK, etc. in EVE in the hope of just ruining someone's game, that is a moral decision.

To justify our behavior with "It's just a game." is no more noble or defensible than "She deserved it." or "Blacks/Jews/women/etc. aren't our equals." or "It was a war." or even "I was drunk.". What happens in Vegas DOES NOT actually stay in Vegas.


My word you missed the point of the game. In EVE you are your personal policeman. The point to a simulation is that the only hurt you can actually suffer in it is timeloss when your sandcastle gets knocked down because you weren't good at being your personal policeman, and other players are very definitely able to play as tyrants or pirates without that being any sort of moral issue whatsoever. The game would literally fail at providing you the opportunity to be your personal policeman, if it didn't in fact allow and encourage piracy and tyrants.

It amuses me no end, that in reality WoW allows timeservers with no ability whatsoever to raid and collect purples, yet the same nohopers can't get past the first lowsec gate, simply because the monsters on the other side are run by humans.

The value of anything I do in low or null, is largely set by the fact that people can't handle the human difficulty of low and null, and that wouldn't at all be so if there weren't pirates, corps who hold space as private and tyrants. The game would have mudflation died years ago, everything you hold in the game as valuable, whatever, its all context because of people who shoot other peoples ships.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#162 - 2013-08-30 05:15:10 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:


So its neither right nor wrong to troll?

Shouldn't it be wrong to troll?
I'm indifferent to be honest, a little annoyed at myself for getting caught by it, but that's life.

Quote:
But anyways, aren't you offended by the troll because it offends your morality of the comparisons?

And if you are offended doesn't that mean that there is some right and wrong in forums which is an extension of EVE?
I'm offended because of the magnitude, not the morality, of what was used for comparison, it's as simple as that. If he had used for example a so called "victimless crime", such as embezzlement or something that would normally be covered by insurance, that would have been non offensive.


Doesn't being offended mean that someone has violated your sense of morality? Certainly if you didn't care about such comparisons and have no moral quandary with such actions, that you would have not been offended.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#163 - 2013-08-30 05:25:30 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
I'm offended because of the magnitude, not the morality, of what was used for comparison, it's as simple as that. If he had used for example a so called "victimless crime", such as embezzlement or something that would normally be covered by insurance, that would have been non offensive.

Someone who gets ganked would get the insurance, if they had insured their ship....

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#164 - 2013-08-30 05:25:31 UTC
I scam people in EVE, yes, but that doesn't mean that I'd do the same in real life. Why? Because you can literally lose everything in EVE but it doesn't matter after you log off.

Stop trying to project people's actions in a game to what they would do in RL. It's stupid.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#165 - 2013-08-30 05:26:34 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
It amuses me no end, that in reality WoW allows timeservers with no ability whatsoever to raid and collect purples, yet the same nohopers can't get past the first lowsec gate, simply because the monsters on the other side are run by humans.

The value of anything I do in low or null, is largely set by the fact that people can't handle the human difficulty of low and null, and that wouldn't at all be so if there weren't pirates, corps who hold space as private and tyrants. The game would have mudflation died years ago, everything you hold in the game as valuable, whatever, its all context because of people who shoot other peoples ships.

Can't wait for another random officer fitted missioning ship killmail.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#166 - 2013-08-30 05:31:01 UTC
Andski wrote:
I scam people in EVE, yes, but that doesn't mean that I'd do the same in real life. Why? Because you can literally lose everything in EVE but it doesn't matter after you log off.

Stop trying to project people's actions in a game to what they would do in RL. It's stupid.

But your ~tears~ cried over the internet space pixel, they are real. Eve is real I was there getting that security deposit you dam spai

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#167 - 2013-08-30 05:31:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Andski wrote:
I scam people in EVE, yes, but that doesn't mean that I'd do the same in real life. Why? Because you can literally lose everything in EVE but it doesn't matter after you log off.

Stop trying to project people's actions in a game to what they would do in RL. It's stupid.


Personally I've never said that and continue to say that doing evil things in EVE is not equatable to doing real evil things in real life because there are real life consequences most of the time.

I'm just saying that it is somewhat evil.

Why are you so afraid of saying "I am an evil player and I'm OK with it."?

Secondly, if you are not sad or upset with loss in EVE why are you playing? If you don't care about winning or losing, then why play the game when you can just watch TV instead?

If you don't care about losing all your stuff, why not just contract it over to me since you don't care about it?

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#168 - 2013-08-30 05:32:17 UTC
My internet space pixel loss made me cry, I was forced to reevaluate my position of humanity in an internet space pixel environment.

This is terrible, and I have to navigate our terrible killboard to post for reimbursement.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#169 - 2013-08-30 05:33:05 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
You don't appear to be able to separate reality from fantasy, I suggest you get that checked out, it's a common symptom of mental illness. Eve is a fantasy, the same as every other game, as well as films and books, they're entertainment, an escape from the reality of life.


I'll take that as a "No, Mayhaw Morgan, I don't actually know any people who society or I personally would classify as 'bad'.".

OK, so, if you don't have anyone to compare EVE players to, then how can you say one way or another that we are not being 'bad' by the things we do in game?
You are speculating that our actions as players are devoid of moral significance, but you cannot say for certain because you have never seen an immoral decision in action. i.e. YOU are the one living in a fantasy world, where this mythical concept called "evil" exists in some far away place, committed by people who are completely unlike yourself and your friends. You have never actually looked at the WHY of a robbery or an assault or a homicide or even just someone littering. Therefore, you cannot say that it is in any way different than the decision to sit on a gate in low sec and just attack the first random person who comes through.

Does the idea of being an "evil" person or of playing with "evil" people bother you in some sense?
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#170 - 2013-08-30 05:36:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Captain Tardbar wrote:

Doesn't being offended mean that someone has violated your sense of morality? Certainly if you didn't care about such comparisons and have no moral quandary with such actions, that you would have not been offended.

Nope, it's entirely possible to be offensive without violating morality. For example if I said that you were as dumb as a rock or as thick as pig manure, would it be your morals I offended, or your ego?

I find some people offensive because they smell funny, I find onions offensive because of the texture, I find politicians offensive for no reason other than being politicians, none of which violate my sense of morality in any way.

Mayhaw Morgan wrote:

I'll take that as a "No, Mayhaw Morgan, I don't actually know any people who society or I personally would classify as 'bad'.
You can take it any way you want to, I didn't answer the question for reasons that will become apparent, but you pushed it. I do know people society would consider as bad or evil, some I associate with, such as the guy who sells me the occasional bit of weed. Others I'm embarrassed to be associated with, such as the guy I called my friend, who is currently doing time for regularly sodomising his 6 year old son. This is the reason I didn't answer, the guy was part of a close circle of friends, we were all very shocked when it came to light and feel guilty that we didn't spot it and do something, this is an example of both moral wrongness and evil.

Quote:
OK, so, if you don't have anyone to compare EVE players to, then how can you say one way or another that we are not being 'bad' by the things we do in game?
You are speculating that our actions as players are devoid of moral significance, but you cannot say for certain because you have never seen an immoral decision in action. i.e. YOU are the one living in a fantasy world, where this mythical concept called "evil" exists in some far away place, committed by people who are completely unlike yourself and your friends.
I'm well aware that it exists, I've seen it first hand and that it prospers when people do nothing about it.
I don't live in a fantasy world, terrible things are done every day by normal people very much like you and I. We, as a species, have a great capacity for doing harm, and we're always looking for more efficient ways of doing it, conversely we also have a great capacity for doing good, sometimes we see doing harm as actually doing good, we're pretty screwed up like that, but it's part of being human.

Quote:
You have never actually looked at the WHY of a robbery or an assault or a homicide or even just someone littering. Therefore, you cannot say that it is in any way different than the decision to sit on a gate in low sec and just attack the first random person who comes through.

Does the idea of being an "evil" person or of playing with "evil" people bother you in some sense?
I am aware that things like poverty and drug addiction are a driving force behind crimes such as robbery, just as jealousy, hatred, distraction or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time can result in a murder or manslaughter charge.

What I am saying is that being an evil bastard in a computer game is not the same as being an evil bastard in real life.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#171 - 2013-08-30 05:36:53 UTC
Feel bad, you are bad!

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#172 - 2013-08-30 05:37:14 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Secondly, if you are not sad or upset with loss in EVE why are you playing? If you don't care about winning or losing, then why play the game when you can just watch TV instead?


Because getting hung up over losing an imaginary spaceship is dumb

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#173 - 2013-08-30 05:37:32 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:

Doesn't being offended mean that someone has violated your sense of morality? Certainly if you didn't care about such comparisons and have no moral quandary with such actions, that you would have not been offended.

Nope, it's entirely possible to be offensive without violating morality. For example if I said that you were as dumb as a rock or as thick as pig manure, would it be your morals I offended, or your ego?

I find some people offensive because they smell funny, I find onions offensive because of the texture, I find politicians offensive for no reason other than being politicians, none of which violate my sense of morality in any way.

Politicians don't violate your sense or morality, eh.

That's reaching a bit, surely.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#174 - 2013-08-30 05:38:54 UTC
Andski wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Secondly, if you are not sad or upset with loss in EVE why are you playing? If you don't care about winning or losing, then why play the game when you can just watch TV instead?

Because getting hung up over losing an imaginary spaceship is dumb

Why watch TV when DBRB is much better entertainment?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#175 - 2013-08-30 05:40:05 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:

Doesn't being offended mean that someone has violated your sense of morality? Certainly if you didn't care about such comparisons and have no moral quandary with such actions, that you would have not been offended.

Nope, it's entirely possible to be offensive without violating morality. For example if I said that you were as dumb as a rock or as thick as pig manure, would it be your morals I offended, or your ego?

I find some people offensive because they smell funny, I find onions offensive because of the texture, I find politicians offensive for no reason other than being politicians, none of which violate my sense of morality in any way.


Yes but in his instance he compared you to morally questionable activities. he didn't insult you, but rather compared you to certain people who did immoral things. If you didn't think those activities were immoral, I don't think you would have gotten upset.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#176 - 2013-08-30 05:41:46 UTC
Andski wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Secondly, if you are not sad or upset with loss in EVE why are you playing? If you don't care about winning or losing, then why play the game when you can just watch TV instead?


Because getting hung up over losing an imaginary spaceship is dumb


Ok. If you don't mind losing your ships, then you should contract your remaining ones over to me as you don't care about them.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#177 - 2013-08-30 05:42:07 UTC
Eve online general discussion, actually a honeypot being watched by the thought police.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#178 - 2013-08-30 06:08:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:

Doesn't being offended mean that someone has violated your sense of morality? Certainly if you didn't care about such comparisons and have no moral quandary with such actions, that you would have not been offended.

Nope, it's entirely possible to be offensive without violating morality. For example if I said that you were as dumb as a rock or as thick as pig manure, would it be your morals I offended, or your ego?

I find some people offensive because they smell funny, I find onions offensive because of the texture, I find politicians offensive for no reason other than being politicians, none of which violate my sense of morality in any way.


Yes but in his instance he compared you to morally questionable activities. he didn't insult you, but rather compared you to certain people who did immoral things. If you didn't think those activities were immoral, I don't think you would have gotten upset.

He trivialised some pretty offensive, and yes I'll admit it morally wrong acts, so that he could compare them to violence in a computer game. I found the trivialisation extremely offensive, if he had trivialised 9/11, 7/7 or WWI & II to the same extent I would have been just as offended.

Alavaria Fera wrote:

Politicians don't violate your sense of morality, eh.

That's reaching a bit, surely.
You got me there. Game, set and match.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#179 - 2013-08-30 06:10:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Taking some space pixels away by means of 1400mm Howitzer Artillery turrets is like taking a life.

Stealing some space pixels is like ravaging a, well you know.

When you shoot a non-blue, it's like, well you also know, ~profiling~ or something

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#180 - 2013-08-30 06:15:44 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Taking some space pixels away by means of 1400mm Howitzer Artillery turrets is like taking a life.

Stealing some space pixels is like ravaging a, well you know.

When you shoot a non-blue, it's like, well you also know, ~profiling~ or something

Don't forget, invading someone else's space makes you literally a tinpot failed house painter with a funny 'tache and a dodgy haircut.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack