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Someone has a 'little' Napoleon complex..

First post
Author
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#101 - 2013-08-30 02:24:06 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Oh ho ho eve online so real.

Would you gank Mayhaw Morgan's hulk?


If it wasn't so real and emotional it would be boring.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#102 - 2013-08-30 02:31:37 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Well its not stealing your grandma's social security check immoral, but its about as immoral as taking money from another player playing poker in Las Vegas. If you can't see morality in such actions then I can't help you.


i'm pretty sure gambling is considered immoral by even the most neutral observer to begin with, so what's your point

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#103 - 2013-08-30 02:33:34 UTC
Andski wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Well its not stealing your grandma's social security check immoral, but its about as immoral as taking money from another player playing poker in Las Vegas. If you can't see morality in such actions then I can't help you.

i'm pretty sure gambling is considered immoral by even the most neutral observer to begin with, so what's your point

Why do you have to point out these things

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#104 - 2013-08-30 02:44:26 UTC
Andski wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Well its not stealing your grandma's social security check immoral, but its about as immoral as taking money from another player playing poker in Las Vegas. If you can't see morality in such actions then I can't help you.


i'm pretty sure gambling is considered immoral by even the most neutral observer to begin with, so what's your point


In EVE you gamble time and/or money almost as if you were playing a game of poker.

You can lose your time and/or money every time you undock, no?

Even if you use isk for buying plex, you are still converting your time into the equivalent $14.95.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#105 - 2013-08-30 02:49:58 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
In EVE you gamble time and/or money almost as if you were playing a game of poker.


anybody who believes the time they spend playing video games has any value at all is not to be taken seriously

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
Somethin Awfull Forums
#106 - 2013-08-30 02:55:00 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Oh ho ho eve online so real.

Would you gank Mayhaw Morgan's hulk?


If it wasn't so real and emotional it would be boring.


You just cracked the carebear code.

We really don't care that our pixels made it on your farm mail.

Sorry it had to end that way.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#107 - 2013-08-30 02:56:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Captain Tardbar wrote:
snip
Just because the game says you can do such a thing, doesn't make it moral. The game itself doesn't have the rules of morality, that is still subjective to society and the person committing the action.

I'm not saying that you are a bad person who should be arrested... I'm saying you still have actions of morality can be judged by the rest of society however slight.

What you're suggesting is that we should carry our real world morals into a virtual world. Real world morals are the result of societal norms which is all fine and dandy. However, they do get thrown out of the window when it suits our purposes, for example wars and oppression.

The societal norms in Eve are different from that of the real world in that morals are not the norm. You're free to bring your real world morals into this world, just as others are free to ignore them because the norm here is to "do unto others before they do unto you".

Society and its norms change rapidly, 200 years ago slavery was acceptable, today it is not, 500 years ago committing genocide on the natives of far off lands, because we wanted their stuff, was considered a divine right, today that is generally considered completely unacceptable, it still happens to a certain extent, but is washed over by politicians and spin doctors.

Eve is set 21,000 years in the future, the 4 factions have been cut off from humanity for millennia, who is to say that the behaviour of a human population cut off from mainstream humanity for that amount of time would conform to what we consider normal in the real world?

In nature and in our own history, the strong have always preyed upon the weak, the strong have always become powerful at the expense of the weak, Eve is actually a purer reflection of the natural order of things than the norms real world society has adopted and expects us to live by.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#108 - 2013-08-30 02:56:40 UTC
Andski wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
In EVE you gamble time and/or money almost as if you were playing a game of poker.


anybody who believes the time they spend playing video games has any value at all is not to be taken seriously


Wow. What a dismal view on life and video games.

You mean you can't take pride in doing well in a video game? All those videos on youtube of those mega-constructions in Minecraft have no value at all? That that guy who reconstructed the Enteprise-D in Minecraft was just crazy?

Hell, even when I ice mine it feels like I am creating something worth of value to my entertainment and that is a low point. I mean you don't see increasing kill mails on EVE to not be something of value?

Gee. I see why you guys are always so angry. You must be bitter when you can get any joy out of video games because you don't value your time playing.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#109 - 2013-08-30 02:58:47 UTC
But eve is real and goons are bad people who should be made to suffer in real life

which is a bit redundant because eve is real

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#110 - 2013-08-30 03:01:37 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
snip
Just because the game says you can do such a thing, doesn't make it moral. The game itself doesn't have the rules of morality, that is still subjective to society and the person committing the action.

I'm not saying that you are a bad person who should be arrested... I'm saying you still have actions of morality can be judged by the rest of society however slight.

What you're suggesting is that we should carry our real world morals into a virtual world. Real world morals are the result of societal norms which is all fine and dandy. However, they do get thrown out of the window when it suits our purposes, for example wars and oppression.

The societal norms in Eve are different from that of the real world in that morals are irrelevant here. You're free to bring your real world morals into this world, just as others are free to ignore them because the norm here is to "do unto others before they do unto you".

Society and its norms change rapidly, 200 years ago slavery was acceptable, today it is not, 500 years ago it was considered a divine right for European countries to commit genocide on natives of far off lands, because we wanted their stuff, today that is completely unacceptable. Eve is set 21,000 years in the future, the 4 factions have been cut off from humanity for millennia, who is to say that the behaviour of a human population cut off from mainstream humanity for that amount of time would conform to what we consider normal in the real world?

In nature and in our own history, the strong have always preyed upon the weak, the strong have always become powerful at the expense of the weak, Eve is actually a purer reflection of the natural order of things than the norms real world society has adopted and expects us to live by.


There is still morality in EVE. I mean the Empires frown everytime you gank in hi-sec and concord you. You lose sec status when you pod people in lowsec so there is some sort of law enforcement and judgement of morality on your actions (besides those of other players).

If you gank someone in null, then I say there is less of a moral judgement since there is no in game punishment on said behavior and people usually expect those who are out in null sec are there willingly.

Except if you awox and blue and then you have moral judgement of those who are in said alliance who would frown on such behavior.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#111 - 2013-08-30 03:02:05 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Wow. What a dismal view on life and video games.

You mean you can't take pride in doing well in a video game? All those videos on youtube of those mega-constructions in Minecraft have no value at all? That that guy who reconstructed the Enteprise-D in Minecraft was just crazy?

Hell, even when I ice mine it feels like I am creating something worth of value to my entertainment and that is a low point. I mean you don't see increasing kill mails on EVE to not be something of value?

Gee. I see why you guys are always so angry. You must be bitter when you can get any joy out of video games because you don't value your time playing.


Look, you're talking about it being "immoral" to do something against somebody in a video game because they've put time and money into the game. Do you personally feel distressed if you get scammed or suicide ganked? Does it affect those around you? If your answer to either of those is "yes" then you should probably take a step back and not get emotionally invested in a video game.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#112 - 2013-08-30 03:02:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
double post please ignore

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#113 - 2013-08-30 03:04:24 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
There is still morality in EVE. I mean the Empires frown everytime you gank in hi-sec and concord you. You lose sec status when you pod people in lowsec so there is some sort of law enforcement and judgement of morality on your actions (besides those of other players).

If you gank someone in null, then I say there is less of a moral judgement since there is no in game punishment on said behavior and people usually expect those who are out in null sec are there willingly.

Except if you awox and blue and then you have moral judgement of those who are in said alliance who would frown on such behavior.


This is complete and utter nonsense and you should feel bad for saying it. Participation in EVE is entirely voluntary.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#114 - 2013-08-30 03:07:36 UTC
I disapprove of coalitions formed with reasons to exist like killing my alliance. In fact we all might disapprove.

How evil of N3

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#115 - 2013-08-30 03:07:38 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
But eve is real and goons are bad people who should be made to suffer in real life

which is a bit redundant because eve is real


Funny. I never said anything to such an effect. I am simply saying there is morality in the game. I've never said the goons were all that bad actually. You must think you are bad if you keep saying such things.

Its not serious business to where you need to go to the goons house and send them to jail, but I'm saying it shows that you like to choose immoral behavior in an online simulation.

To say there is no morality in EVE is like saying the game has no moral choices. There are. There just aren't send you to jail consequences for choosing the evil path.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Proletariat Tingtango
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#116 - 2013-08-30 03:09:30 UTC
Shut up dude.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#117 - 2013-08-30 03:11:49 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
In EVE you gamble time and/or money almost as if you were playing a game of poker.

You can lose your time and/or money every time you undock, no?

Even if you use isk for buying plex, you are still converting your time into the equivalent $14.95.


Holy **** you did unironically compare EVE to gambling

Paying for your EVE account and betting on a poker hand are two completely different concepts. You can win money from a good poker hand; playing EVE, on the other hand, only costs money and has no potential for a monetary return.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#118 - 2013-08-30 03:13:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Captain Tardbar wrote:

There is still morality in EVE. I mean the Empires frown everytime you gank in hi-sec and concord you.
You lose sec status when you pod people in lowsec so there is some sort of law enforcement and judgement of morality on your actions (besides those of other players).
Law enforcement != morals, killing another person is generally considered immoral, unless the law says otherwise, how is the law moral in that instance?
Quote:
If you gank someone in null, then I say there is less of a moral judgement since there is no in game punishment on said behavior and people usually expect those who are out in null sec are there willingly.

Except if you awox and blue and then you have moral judgement of those who are in said alliance who would frown on such behavior.
In Eve you're an immortal, other peoples personal judgements are meaningless when it's impossible for them to deprive you of life.

Eve is a dystopia, which generally means that society on the whole has collapsed or is otherwise corrupt. Morals in a dystopia mean nothing.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#119 - 2013-08-30 03:14:29 UTC
Andski wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
There is still morality in EVE. I mean the Empires frown everytime you gank in hi-sec and concord you. You lose sec status when you pod people in lowsec so there is some sort of law enforcement and judgement of morality on your actions (besides those of other players).

If you gank someone in null, then I say there is less of a moral judgement since there is no in game punishment on said behavior and people usually expect those who are out in null sec are there willingly.

Except if you awox and blue and then you have moral judgement of those who are in said alliance who would frown on such behavior.


This is complete and utter nonsense and you should feel bad for saying it. Participation in EVE is entirely voluntary.


Wow. Have you run out of comebacks that you resort to the old "you are bad. you should feel bad" statements.

Just because a game of poker is voluntary (usually) doesn't mean its moral to take your oponents money and leave him destitute. Its certainly a part of the game and legal (in Los Vegas), but it doesn't make you a "good" person for doing it.

That is the problem. You see moral as being legal. And its not. Legal and moral are two different concepts.

It maybe legal for me to foreclose a mortgage on an orphanage, but it doesn't make it moral.

I'm not saying the the actions of people in EVE are illegal, I'm saying they are somewhat immoral.

Just a tiny-etsy bitty immoral.

Or are you too high strung in your rationaliation defenses to admit that you make some moral choices in EVE?

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#120 - 2013-08-30 03:16:11 UTC
Andski wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
In EVE you gamble time and/or money almost as if you were playing a game of poker.

You can lose your time and/or money every time you undock, no?

Even if you use isk for buying plex, you are still converting your time into the equivalent $14.95.


Holy **** you did unironically compare EVE to gambling

Paying for your EVE account and betting on a poker hand are two completely different concepts. You can win money from a good poker hand; playing EVE, on the other hand, only costs money and has no potential for a monetary return.


You win entertainment by risking money. Same difference.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server