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Can flipping and the tos
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Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1 - 2011-10-28 21:03:50 UTC
According to one of my alliance mates CCP GM has confirmed that it is a ban able offense to can flip/bait in rookie systems. Now I'm not disagreeing with this rule, but being this rule is NOT listed under the TOS (i didn't check the EULA but I'd be very surprised if it was in there) I think that is very problematic. If you are going to ban someone for it then it should be clearly listed on the TOS. It is listed at http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Can_flipping and http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Griefing but seriously if someone is going to see if they can be banned for something they aren't going to go to the wiki but rather the TOS and EULA.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2011-10-28 21:13:03 UTC
Omega Flames wrote:
According to one of my alliance mates CCP GM has confirmed that it is a ban able offense to can flip/bait in rookie systems. Now I'm not disagreeing with this rule, but being this rule is NOT listed under the TOS (i didn't check the EULA but I'd be very surprised if it was in there) I think that is very problematic. If you are going to ban someone for it then it should be clearly listed on the TOS. It is listed at http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Can_flipping and http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Griefing but seriously if someone is going to see if they can be banned for something they aren't going to go to the wiki but rather the TOS and EULA.

now, im not saying this is a good habit to develop but:

the average EvE gamer is going to be either a caucasian or black Male between the ages of 14-35, and the average male of that age group is ~4 minutes.
the average ToS or EULA is about 3-90 pages long (lol).

in summary, i can guarantee less than 1% of all people who play EvE have actvively gone in and read the ToS and EULA, since at last haf of them probably didn' read the contract for their new car before tey signed it and now have 400 years of debt.

the wiki for everything is where people usually go to learn everything about that which they need to wiki.
Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3 - 2011-10-28 21:43:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Omega Flames
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Omega Flames wrote:
According to one of my alliance mates CCP GM has confirmed that it is a ban able offense to can flip/bait in rookie systems. Now I'm not disagreeing with this rule, but being this rule is NOT listed under the TOS (i didn't check the EULA but I'd be very surprised if it was in there) I think that is very problematic. If you are going to ban someone for it then it should be clearly listed on the TOS. It is listed at http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Can_flipping and http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Griefing but seriously if someone is going to see if they can be banned for something they aren't going to go to the wiki but rather the TOS and EULA.

now, im not saying this is a good habit to develop but:

the average EvE gamer is going to be either a caucasian or black Male between the ages of 14-35, and the average male of that age group is ~4 minutes.
the average ToS or EULA is about 3-90 pages long (lol).

in summary, i can guarantee less than 1% of all people who play EvE have actvively gone in and read the ToS and EULA, since at last haf of them probably didn' read the contract for their new car before tey signed it and now have 400 years of debt.

the wiki for everything is where people usually go to learn everything about that which they need to wiki.

The TOS is only about 1.5 pages long and is full of, guess what, things you can get banned for. It only takes 1-2 sentences to say something about this and a link to either or both of those wiki documents. I'm sure most players don't read the TOS, that's not my concern nor my reason for posting this. However almost everytime someone wants to know if they can be banned for something they are going to go to the TOS and possibly the EULA but not the wiki. I never said remove the info from the wiki but I am saying add a sentence to the TOS.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#4 - 2011-10-28 21:58:10 UTC
I've got a better idea. If said players don't mess with extremely young players who they know don't know any better, they'll have no issues at all. CCP shouldn't have to warn people not to be an ass and grief noobs.
Tenobia Aybara
Doomheim
#5 - 2011-10-28 22:05:21 UTC
Its a valid point, put it in the TOS and all bases are covered properly. There is no legal requirement to read the wiki, however you are expected (even if you do not) to have read the TOS.
Smiling Menace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2011-10-29 01:21:16 UTC
mxzf wrote:
I've got a better idea. If said players don't mess with extremely young players who they know don't know any better, they'll have no issues at all. CCP shouldn't have to warn people not to be an ass and grief noobs.


So you are taking away our CCP given right to be asses and grief people? Sad

I propose all noob ships be indestructible for the first 20 days of a new account. Try grief them noobs now, smart asses TwistedTwistedTwisted
Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
#7 - 2011-10-30 11:59:54 UTC

It's infeasible to detail every rule in the TOS.
Breaker77
Reclamation Industries
#8 - 2011-10-30 12:57:05 UTC
It is listed in the ToS. Item #16

ToS wrote:

You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules

[/quote]

Just because you don't know every rule, doesn't mean every possible thing needs to be listed. It is your responsibility to find out, and there are multiple ways which take just a couple of minutes.

Try explaining to a judge IRL that you didn't know what you did was wrong. They will just laugh and watch you rot in a small cell.
Sephiroth Clone VII
Brothers of Tyr
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2011-10-30 16:21:44 UTC
A noob just starting the game is clueless about agro mechanics. so neither would they steal ore to bait people, nor would they even have much skills to do it.

They might assume it is imposable to steal other players loot in space, what other major MMO after all has free looting?

A player who flips cans deliberately and is in gank ship, knows how to play game, and is not starting out. They may try it on noobs or experienced players, but if they do it on noobs in obvious starter system they face punishment.

No problems here.
Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#10 - 2011-10-30 21:10:35 UTC
Breaker77 wrote:
It is listed in the ToS. Item #16

ToS wrote:

You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules



Just because you don't know every rule, doesn't mean every possible thing needs to be listed. It is your responsibility to find out, and there are multiple ways which take just a couple of minutes.

Try explaining to a judge IRL that you didn't know what you did was wrong. They will just laugh and watch you rot in a small cell.


1. can flipping is a part of the game so it wouldnt fall under that rule to begin with.
2. Irl if the law doesnt specifically deny you the ability to do something then you have the right to do it. The tos is the legal agreement not the wiki so in front of a judge I would be just fine.
Sephiroth CloneIIV wrote:
A noob just starting the game is clueless about agro mechanics. so neither would they steal ore to bait people, nor would they even have much skills to do it.

They might assume it is imposable to steal other players loot in space, what other major MMO after all has free looting?

A player who flips cans deliberately and is in gank ship, knows how to play game, and is not starting out. They may try it on noobs or experienced players, but if they do it on noobs in obvious starter system they face punishment.

No problems here.

read what I said for once and you would understand I am not against having it a rule, I am against the fact it isn't listed in the obvious place for bannable offenses to be listed.
Wyke Mossari wrote:

It's infeasible to detail every rule in the TOS.

actually that is exactly why EULA's and TOS's are created
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#11 - 2011-10-31 01:28:51 UTC
Smiling Menace wrote:
mxzf wrote:
I've got a better idea. If said players don't mess with extremely young players who they know don't know any better, they'll have no issues at all. CCP shouldn't have to warn people not to be an ass and grief noobs.


So you are taking away our CCP given right to be asses and grief people? Sad


I'm not saying that at all. I was just saying that people shouldn't deliberately do it to noobs who don't know what's going on to begin with. If you want to try something like that with me, a player who's been around for a few years and knows how aggression works, that's fine. But doing the same kind of thing to a noob who still hasn't gotten around to leaving the system they started in (and possibly doesn't even know how) is a different matter.
Breaker77
Reclamation Industries
#12 - 2011-10-31 01:49:57 UTC
Omega Flames wrote:

2. Irl if the law doesnt specifically deny you the ability to do something then you have the right to do it. The tos is the legal agreement not the wiki so in front of a judge I would be just fine.


So you want a ToS that looks like this?

I think not!

BTW, that is the vehicle code for the state I live in. Just because a person doesn't know every word in it does not mean you won't get screwed over if you break the rules!

Ignorance is no excuse!
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#13 - 2011-10-31 02:05:42 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
the average EvE gamer is going to be either a caucasian or black Male between the ages of 14-35, and the average male of that age group is ~4 minutes.
the average ToS or EULA is about 3-90 pages long (lol).


Not that they can read anyway

No sig.
Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2011-10-31 08:02:34 UTC
Breaker77 wrote:
Omega Flames wrote:

2. Irl if the law doesnt specifically deny you the ability to do something then you have the right to do it. The tos is the legal agreement not the wiki so in front of a judge I would be just fine.


So you want a ToS that looks like this?

I think not!

BTW, that is the vehicle code for the state I live in. Just because a person doesn't know every word in it does not mean you won't get screwed over if you break the rules!

Ignorance is no excuse!


Actually the EULA already does look like that. Guess what isn't there...you got it, can flipping people in rookie systems.
Anshio Tamark
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#15 - 2011-10-31 08:59:40 UTC
Omega Flames wrote:
Breaker77 wrote:
Omega Flames wrote:

2. Irl if the law doesnt specifically deny you the ability to do something then you have the right to do it. The tos is the legal agreement not the wiki so in front of a judge I would be just fine.


So you want a ToS that looks like this?

I think not!

BTW, that is the vehicle code for the state I live in. Just because a person doesn't know every word in it does not mean you won't get screwed over if you break the rules!

Ignorance is no excuse!


Actually the EULA already does look like that. Guess what isn't there...you got it, can flipping people in rookie systems.

Probably because there's no reason for anyone to be in a Rookie System after the first few days, so apparently CCP didn't think it was necessary to write this in the EULA/TOS.

But going by the strict word of the TOS, DoucheSwarm would be banned. They gank people in high-sec, which prevents the ganked people from enjoying the game, which is forbidden by the EULA/TOS.
Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#16 - 2011-10-31 10:37:40 UTC
Anshio Tamark wrote:

Probably because there's no reason for anyone to be in a Rookie System after the first few days, so apparently CCP didn't think it was necessary to write this in the EULA/TOS.

But going by the strict word of the TOS, DoucheSwarm would be banned. They gank people in high-sec, which prevents the ganked people from enjoying the game, which is forbidden by the EULA/TOS.

Actually there are plenty of reasons to be in a rookie system, they have belts just like every other system, they have stations just like every other system. they have agents just like every other system. In fact a rookie system is exactly like every other 1.0 system with only 1 exception...people start there. Maybe you should actually read the rules yourself before commenting because as the game rules state ganking in highsec is allowed. Quit being a troll.
lilol' me
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#17 - 2011-10-31 10:55:54 UTC
CCP annoy me with crap like this. If they dont like something, then bloody change it. Stop people being able to do it then FFS!

Basically dont allow cargo to cargo exchanges then! Its not hard..
Shaidar Hussan
HelloKittyFanclub
#18 - 2011-10-31 15:38:24 UTC
Smiling Menace wrote:
I propose all noob ships be indestructible for the first 20 days of a new account. Try grief them noobs now, smart asses TwistedTwistedTwisted

Seconded, if only so that I can create an army of indestructible noob ships.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2011-10-31 17:17:13 UTC
Quote:
You will follow the instructions of authorized personnel while in the EVE Online game world or using the EVE Online web site.


That right there is enough to tell me that if CCP states a rule on any website then it is a rule to be followed. Common sense says the EvE Wiki counts. That was #6. Numbers 25 and 26 state the following...

Quote:
CCP reserves the right to close, temporarily or permanently, any user’s account without advance notice as we deem necessary. Furthermore, we reserve the right to delete all user accounts or inventory of characters as warranted.

We reserve the right to ban any user from the game without refund or compensation.


Break the rules and get busted...you would lose in court since can flipping is against the rules set forth by CCP. If you failed to read the rules then how is that the fault of CCP?

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#20 - 2011-10-31 22:10:01 UTC
There is a bit in the EULA (or TOS can't remember) about CCP being able to cancel your account for any reason.

This is covered under that.
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