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Plex Farming and Proposed Solution

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Transmaritanus
Exergy.
#61 - 2013-08-19 16:48:43 UTC
Adson Wessiri wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Adson Wessiri wrote:
^^Pretty much this. People need to stop jerking it to their killboards and realize that just because you didn't get a killmail doesn't mean it wasn't PvP. FW may be there to help facilitiate fights but it's still objective based PvP. The first priority should be claiming your objectives not whoring for killmails.

if the best way to win the system designed to create fights is to not fight and make fights as unfun as possible, it's a sign the system is failing.



If you're running away every time someone enters the plex you aren't winning the system. In fact the exact opposite. You are losing the system.


So by your logic, you would have no problem with resetting the timer if the plexers warp out right? Because hey, the objective is to hold the plex, and if they run out they should "lose" the engagement right?

Resetting the timer seems to be the best NEW idea out of this topic, the rest are those with plex alts trying to not get their money nerfed and fail trolls who don't read previous posts. Resetting the timer means if they're chased out their time is wasted, thus essentially killing their farming efforts if they cloak or chased off. Maybe reset the timer if it isn't run down for 30 seconds or so?
Lee Saisima
Doomheim
#62 - 2013-08-19 16:52:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Lee Saisima
Benny Ohu wrote:
no. the majority of people don't see plexing as taking solar systems, they see it primarily as a way of making money.


This is what makes me laugh. The only reason you are wanting to take more solar systems in the first place is to get your faction tier up and therefore profit more from taking fewer plexes. The whole argument in this thread of "plexing isn't FW, taking systems is FW!" is B.S. It's a hypocritical standpoint because once you have enough systems under your belt you'll be out there too raking in the dough.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#63 - 2013-08-19 17:23:59 UTC
i don't see anyone making that argument

do factions bother maintaining anything higher than tier two, can anyone tell me? i haven't seen them any higher

plexers generally don't care about faction anyway, they just move to a convenient system with a low capture rating
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#64 - 2013-08-19 17:25:53 UTC
from what i remember maintaining higher than tier two is a waste of LP due to the alt stabbed frigate hordes continually sucking the LP out
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#65 - 2013-08-19 17:30:26 UTC
Personally I would like the following change:

You can't warp out of dead space. You have to take a gate. (yes, this would mean adding gates to all the >Large FW plex.)

Not right on the entry point. But a distance away. Preferably outside of the capture radius.

Not just for FW plex either. For all dead space. That'd make me a happy person.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Lee Saisima
Doomheim
#66 - 2013-08-19 17:55:27 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
That'd make me a happy person.


There's your issue there.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#67 - 2013-08-19 18:11:49 UTC
If you are having problems finding fights in FW plexes you might want to look at the systems your are playing in. Try Black Rise. I do run plexes to impact warzone control (as well as for the iskies) and the stabbed cloakers are very effective at contesting systems in both offensive and defensive roles. Best way to deal with them is to form a small gang and run all the plexes, or bring in your own alt.

Timer Rollback would help reduce their impact a little depending on how it is implemented, and I don't think you will hear many in FW saying they don't want it implemented unless they are trolling or doing nothing but running plex farming alts.

JUSTK is recruiting
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#68 - 2013-08-19 18:12:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
I am amused that so many people are arguing whether more changes are needed. Please refer to this dev blog:

CCP Affinity wrote:
We felt the complexes had swayed too far towards a PvE activity and this is not what we wanted at all. We want to move towards a more PvP like environment while still ensuring the complexes cannot be quickly farmed.


That was the motivation behind the change to plex machanics in Retribution. Has the motivation been fulfilled? Hordes of LP farming alts say otherwise. So does the fact that conquering the warzone doesn't take superior strategy or combat, but just making lots of people get in disposable frigates and spend hours mind-numbingly orbiting buttons (as demonstrated by Fweddit before they left).

Conclusion? More changes are needed.

What those changes should be, though, is another matter.

Transmaritanus wrote:

Obviously, we cannot ban warp core stabs or cloaks in fits, as that would adversely affect legitimate game play. To solve these problems, the button (the structure in the middle) could become a structure that can target any player running down the timer, which prevents a cloak. To nullify the stabs, either the equivalent of a interdiction bubble, or perhaps a focused warp disruption(that switches targets every 30 seconds, and has a range about 20km past the button range) would prevent no-risk timer running down. The target switching is there to not adversely affect legitimate pvp. A solo player should not be affected by this, as they can just burn out when on dscan. An afk plex alt will be affected, as by definition of AFK means they aren't looking.


This idea has cruiser AB setups, and all other propless setups, as collateral damage. It also over-buffs the defenders of a plex when they intend to fight, as they don't need a point anymore to be sure their attacker doesn't get away. They can instead use an extra web when sitting on the warp-in. So... no. Switching LP-farming for kill-farming is not a solution.

The problem with the plexes is not that it's too easy to run away, or that running is not (or should not be) a valid tactic. It's that there's no downside to running a super-cheap button-orbiting farming frigate. Whether you choose to run away or not, the most you ever risk is losing a few minutes of AFK play, or having to replace a frigate costing 1 million ISK. It also requires next to no skill points and little piloting skill, while making upwards of 100 mil ISK per hour (running novice plexes at tier 2 with 1 k ISK/LP payout).

A simple way to do it is to up the risk or challenge (or both) of complexes until earning the ridiculous LP of a plex requires effort, thought, involvement, and commitment.

With that in mind, some random ideas:

  • LP loss (or other counter-farming penalty) for failing to follow through with capturing a plex
  • Tackle-capable NPCs (points, scrams, webs)
  • System-wide alert notification when a plex is falling to the enemy
  • Increase plex capture time, along with adding a "siege"-like module which nearly roots you in place, while increasing capture speed.
  • Remove plex slide-in, or using an acceleration gate temporarily (3-4 seconds) disrupts your warp drive Never mind, same problem as with Trans' proposal
  • Timer rollback when nobody is in a plex


All other PvE has risk/effort involved in addition to "watch d-scan and warp away".

  • Mining: slow, very vulnerable ships.
  • Missioning: clear speed / vulnerability / price tradeoffs. (does not apply to FW missions; those need to be nerfed as well)
  • Ratting/exploration: leaving can seriously screw up what you were doing
  • Wormholes: no local, tougher versions of the stuff above
  • Incursions: high level of organization required


Why are FW plexes exempt, especially when they pay out so well?

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#69 - 2013-08-19 18:22:55 UTC
FW plexes are broken, period. They're a joke farming system that caters to hordes of low-SP farming alts. Given a tier 3 or higher warzone, you can take a couple two day old alts and hilariously out earn a year old level 4 mission grinder, and do it with less risk to your characters or your bottom line. This is the problem with the current FW system. To be competent at the highest earning PVE in the game, be it lvl4, Incursions, or lowsec/null ratting/exploration combat requires a decent skillset and a few million parked into a ship. To be competent at FW plexing requires a T1 frigate and enough skill training to fit stabs and a T1 cloak. And since these people always run if given the chance, it truly is nothing more than PVE content. They kill the rat, they cap the plex, they move on.

Timer resets after a short period are a fantastic option. You ***** out, you pay for it.

Elite faction NPCs would be a fantastic option, as well. Let the NPCs scram/web/ewar.

As to FW mechanics themselves, system upgrade level should mean more than just cheaper clones and more lolfarming LP. It should make your system harder to o-plex, through tougher and more numerous NPCs per level, an NPC respawn chance, a shift in capture percentages similar to DUST system effects, etc. Make it worthwhile for people to pay LP into their ihub and try to keep their warzone tier, instead of waiting for the whole thing to flip so they can pull out the opposite faction farming alts that they keep on the back burner.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#70 - 2013-08-19 18:33:09 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
...

As to FW mechanics themselves, system upgrade level should mean more than just cheaper clones and more lolfarming LP. It should make your system harder to o-plex, through tougher and more numerous NPCs per level, an NPC respawn chance, a shift in capture percentages similar to DUST system effects, etc. Make it worthwhile for people to pay LP into their ihub and try to keep their warzone tier, instead of waiting for the whole thing to flip so they can pull out the opposite faction farming alts that they keep on the back burner.


I love the idea of more rats based on the level of the system, don't think you really need to make them harder though. Trying to offensive plex in a 1mil isk frig with no SP vs 5 frig rats would be funny as hell to see. Doesn't help with people that farm defensively, but hey, no reason to stay with only 1 change. This is going onto my favorite list of changes I would like to see for FW sites.

1. Timer Rollback
2. More NPC rats per plex based on system upgrade level (farming the BC level tags might be worth it, but requires active engagement, and the price per tag would come down)

Question, Do the rats in the plexes shoot neutrals now? If not that is going as number 3 on my list.

JUSTK is recruiting
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#71 - 2013-08-19 18:36:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Domanique Altares
Thanatos Marathon wrote:

Question, Do the rats in the plexes shoot neutrals now? If not that is going as number 3 on my list.


Only if you have low standings to that faction. They follow standard rat aggression rules.

I agree that they should attack neutrals, however. In the technical sense, a neutral has no business in a FW plex, and should be KOS to the plex rats, regardless of faction standings.

ETA: They need to do something else with d-plexing. I have no idea what, but I can tell you that I don't for one second miss wasting hours to d-plex our home system at minimum payout, just to continue being able to dock up.
Lee Saisima
Doomheim
#72 - 2013-08-19 18:43:02 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
They're a joke farming system that caters to hordes of low-SP farming alts.


Define "low-SP"? How many months / years must a player sit and wait before they have enough SP that they are deemed "adequately involved" in the game to begin making decent ISK?

Domanique Altares wrote:
Given a tier 3 or higher warzone, you can take a couple two day old alts and hilariously out earn a year old level 4 mission grinder


There will always be imbalances in the game. What is profitable one day may not be so the next, and players will naturally gravitate toward what is most profitable, and why not?

Domanique Altares wrote:
To be competent at the highest earning PVE in the game, be it lvl4, Incursions, or lowsec/null ratting/exploration combat requires a decent skillset and a few million parked into a ship. To be competent at FW plexing requires a T1 frigate and enough skill training to fit stabs and a T1 cloak


And what were you doing before you had enough SP & ISK to run incursions / lvl 4's? Were you constantly docked in-station awaiting that magical 5 mil SP mark whilst playing on another alt, or did you undertake an ISK-making process that benefitted your low-SP requirements? Did other players begrudge you for doing this because they too saw it as easy ISK for a low-level player?

A large chunk of the high-SP playerbase constantly bemoaned the fact that new players & alts were hatching all the time and simply being logged into every once in a while for their skill queue to be updated, never undocking from their stations and contributing nothing to the game until a certain SP threshold was reached. Now the same playerbase bemoans the fact that new, low-SP characters are out in LOW-SEC undertaking ISK-making activities. The "broken system" card is always pulled out under these circumstances, just because ppl have no concept of game mechanics.
Nikki Audier
Doomheim
#73 - 2013-08-19 18:54:34 UTC
Kahetha wrote:
Nonono, you see, this is working as intended; FW is/was intended as an easy access gateway to PVP for newer players, so teaching them that sometimes someone gets away, is just part of life!

"Pirates" and "PVPers" in EVE (and other games) are under the impression that is it their right to kill other players. Not because the victim was doing something in particular or because the victim was in a particular place, but because the victim exists. Therefore, when the "pirates" or "PVPers" 'right' to killing is violated (when someone gets away), they feel "robbed" of a kill, because in their world view, once a victim is in sight that player is rightfully his to kill and has no right to get away.

But of course the reality of things is that when someone tries to kill you, or you know you are going into a situation where people will be trying to kill you, you will try and take actions to prevent that. For example "pirates" and "PVPers" will fit resist mods and extenders/plates/rep mods and perhaps make use of logi ships for precisely that reason!Big smile


I agree with the above and would like to add that if they deem it a right to kill once they have them in their crosshairs why don't they play a FPS?
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#74 - 2013-08-19 19:00:20 UTC
The real driver for the need for change to plex mechanics isn't about SP, it is about farmers.

I don't think many are saying low SP chars need to be punished and not be able to make isk. A low SP station trader can make absolute bank if that is their thing. It requires effort/time/experience. One of the best things in my opinion about FW is that new players (and characters) can have an impact, that isn't to say I think they should have a larger impact then those that have more effort/time/experience. Changing the rats, timer rollback, and maybe one or two other changes wouldn't mean that low SP characters are worthless in FW, it just means that their impact on the warzone would be slightly reduced hopefully (and more in line with the impact low SP chars have in other parts of the game).

Either way, I don't think the major focus for people wanting change in plex mechanics is on how much SP the farmers have, it is in how PVE focused they are, and how much of an impact they have on the warzone. Warzone control is a seesaw that swings super quickly based on the alt farming hoards (not so much on the "newplayer" farmers).

JUSTK is recruiting
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#75 - 2013-08-19 19:00:38 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
the solution are timer resets.

They will run only so often before they realize this isn't pve, they are supposed to stay in the plex and defend their progress, not run away while making progress.


You do know how plex's work right?

yes

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#76 - 2013-08-19 19:01:22 UTC
Lee Saisima wrote:


And what were you doing before you had enough SP & ISK to run incursions / lvl 4's? Were you constantly docked in-station awaiting that magical 5 mil SP mark whilst playing on another alt, or did you undertake an ISK-making process that benefitted your low-SP requirements? Did other players begrudge you for doing this because they too saw it as easy ISK for a low-level player?

A large chunk of the high-SP playerbase constantly bemoaned the fact that new players & alts were hatching all the time and simply being logged into every once in a while for their skill queue to be updated, never undocking from their stations and contributing nothing to the game until a certain SP threshold was reached. Now the same playerbase bemoans the fact that new, low-SP characters are out in LOW-SEC undertaking ISK-making activities. The "broken system" card is always pulled out under these circumstances, just because ppl have no concept of game mechanics.


I still can't run incursions or level 4s. I don't have standings and I don't spend enough time in hisec to bother. And I have no desire to do either, anyway. I scammed people and I ran missions up through level 3 and got tired of it. I joined Rifterlings, moved to low sec, and have been there ever since. When and if I make isk through PVE play, I do it in exploration combat plexes and WHs. Sometimes I even still scam people when I make a run to a trade hub.

I don't care how people make isk, or how much. It's the point that FW income is out of risk/reward and time sink balance with every other similar space-based isk faucet in the game. The people that truly farm it aren't training for higher SP. They train exactly enough to ensure mostly AFK viability through stabs and cloaks, and they stop. They grind the LP until it starts to peter out due to warzone control, and then they either log in opposite faction farming alts, or biomass the current ones and train a new set to farm the other side. Even at T1, the income from FW o-plexing is quite comparable to blitzing level 4s, and there is little actual risk involved. FW is an unexciting and unbalanced offering. The amount of isk isn't in question; it's the risk that's tied to earning it that's underwhelming.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#77 - 2013-08-19 19:08:55 UTC
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Warzone control is a seesaw that swings super quickly based on the alt farming hoards (not so much on the "newplayer" farmers).


Exactly. And the farmers are rarely handled by new players, anyway. The majority are run by experienced players who know exactly how to game the system; they simply use low SP alts to do so. More power to them, but FW warzone control is supposed to hinge on war and player conflict, not how many throwaway farming alts one side can conscript versus the other at a given time.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#78 - 2013-08-19 19:15:08 UTC
Lee Saisima wrote:

There will always be imbalances in the game. What is profitable one day may not be so the next, and players will naturally gravitate toward what is most profitable, and why not?

There will always be injustice in the world, so why even have police or government?

People will always gravitate towards more/easier ISK, more powerful combat ships, more reliable intel mechanics, or more effective tactics, but that is not a valid argument for not enacting any sort of change. "People will do what's in their interest, so we will just be stagnant" sounds like a economic-political platform, not a game design strategy.

"Gun-mining" is abused? Nerf it! Nobody mines anymore? Buff mining! Battleships use nanos to be faster than interceptors? Fix it! More than half of T1 ships are never used? Rebalance them!

Creating a skill-less alt that orbits a button in a cloaky, warp-stabbed frigate is more profitable than most other income sources? Well, I'm sure you get the point.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Lee Saisima
Doomheim
#79 - 2013-08-19 19:20:49 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
They grind the LP until it starts to peter out due to warzone control, and then they either log in opposite faction farming alts, or biomass the current ones and train a new set to farm the other side


And what evidence for this? And even if this were true, they're alts, as you say.

Domanique Altares wrote:
They train exactly enough to ensure mostly AFK viability through stabs and cloaks, and they stop


So these hypothetical alts aren't "new" players, as you point out, because a new player would want to train beyond FW plexing (else why make the ISK?). They are experienced players, like yourself or anyone else, exploiting a game mechanic.

So if there was a nerf for FW plexes tomorrow, what would happen? Said playerbase would simply re-invent these alts for ice mining, or gas sites, or combat sites, or whatever rakes in the most "ISK per hour" - and they'll figure it out, remember, because they've been playing EVE for months / years already, they're not newbies. So are FW plexes the culprit? No. Chaning their mechanics wouldn't change the situation. As you point out yourself, it's the ability to mass-spawn alts that is the root of this problem - not new players, or cloaks, or SP requirements; that's missing the point. It's the existing playerbase and the availability of multiple accounts and cheap alts.

But then comes the question of who are you to say "one toon per person"? You'll always be fighting this fight. Just be at peace with it.
Adson Wessiri
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2013-08-19 19:28:53 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
I am amused that so many people are arguing whether more changes are needed. Please refer to this dev blog:

CCP Affinity wrote:
We felt the complexes had swayed too far towards a PvE activity and this is not what we wanted at all. We want to move towards a more PvP like environment while still ensuring the complexes cannot be quickly farmed.


That was the motivation behind the change to plex machanics in Retribution. Has the motivation been fulfilled? Hordes of LP farming alts say otherwise. So does the fact that conquering the warzone doesn't take superior strategy or combat, but just making lots of people get in disposable frigates and spend hours mind-numbingly orbiting buttons (as demonstrated by Fweddit before they left).

Conclusion? More changes are needed.

What those changes should be, though, is another matter.

Transmaritanus wrote:

Obviously, we cannot ban warp core stabs or cloaks in fits, as that would adversely affect legitimate game play. To solve these problems, the button (the structure in the middle) could become a structure that can target any player running down the timer, which prevents a cloak. To nullify the stabs, either the equivalent of a interdiction bubble, or perhaps a focused warp disruption(that switches targets every 30 seconds, and has a range about 20km past the button range) would prevent no-risk timer running down. The target switching is there to not adversely affect legitimate pvp. A solo player should not be affected by this, as they can just burn out when on dscan. An afk plex alt will be affected, as by definition of AFK means they aren't looking.


This idea has cruiser AB setups, and all other propless setups, as collateral damage. It also over-buffs the defenders of a plex when they intend to fight, as they don't need a point anymore to be sure their attacker doesn't get away. They can instead use an extra web when sitting on the warp-in. So... no. Switching LP-farming for kill-farming is not a solution.

The problem with the plexes is not that it's too easy to run away, or that running is not (or should not be) a valid tactic. It's that there's no downside to running a super-cheap button-orbiting farming frigate. Whether you choose to run away or not, the most you ever risk is losing a few minutes of AFK play, or having to replace a frigate costing 1 million ISK. It also requires next to no skill points and little piloting skill, while making upwards of 100 mil ISK per hour (running novice plexes at tier 2 with 1 k ISK/LP payout).

A simple way to do it is to up the risk or challenge (or both) of complexes until earning the ridiculous LP of a plex requires effort, thought, involvement, and commitment.

With that in mind, some random ideas:

  • LP loss (or other counter-farming penalty) for failing to follow through with capturing a plex
  • Tackle-capable NPCs (points, scrams, webs)
  • System-wide alert notification when a plex is falling to the enemy
  • Increase plex capture time, along with adding a "siege"-like module which nearly roots you in place, while increasing capture speed.
  • Remove plex slide-in, or using an acceleration gate temporarily (3-4 seconds) disrupts your warp drive Never mind, same problem as with Trans' proposal
  • Timer rollback when nobody is in a plex


All other PvE has risk/effort involved in addition to "watch d-scan and warp away".

  • Mining: slow, very vulnerable ships.
  • Missioning: clear speed / vulnerability / price tradeoffs. (does not apply to FW missions; those need to be nerfed as well)
  • Ratting/exploration: leaving can seriously screw up what you were doing
  • Wormholes: no local, tougher versions of the stuff above
  • Incursions: high level of organization required


Why are FW plexes exempt, especially when they pay out so well?


I don't think anyone has said no changes are needed. In fact I agree that some changes are needed. The problem is that OP was complaining about people running away from him instead of fighting. This thread is full of people that just have a hard on for easy killmails. If someone gets away then move on to someone else or get a group and hunt him down. Or fit to counter the fits that you are complaining about.

The reset timer thing isn't a terrible idea in my opinion for countering this. People can still use these tactics and have the freedom to disengage if they so choose. Then they must weigh the consequences of fleeing the fight and losing the plex vs staying and potentially losing their ship.