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"Game dev harassment eroding industry"

Author
Alexa de'Crux
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2013-08-20 02:10:22 UTC
Ilia Tresnor wrote:
I didn't see this article about game devs being harassed and threatened with death anywhere on the forums, so I'll just put the link down over here and see what happens. Found on ars technica.

Someone needs to explain to these nutjobs they won't get internet access in prison. Maybe that will calm them down, as a few are no doubt headed there.


Unfortunately, this is a trend that I've seen repeated again and again and again. CCP, or another company, tries to do what's best for the longevity of their product, and the ungrateful masses throw the proverbial Christmas tie back in grandma's face.

Here's a message to those that feel the need to b----, moan and whine when CCP doesn't 'snap to':

Grow. Up.

Seriously.

Grow the hell up.

Game design is not easy, and I speak from experience. That a game of EVE's complexity is even possible speaks to the dedication and perseverance on CCP's part. Whinging and whining when it's not your 'ideal game' is beyond ungrateful, given the scale of what they've already produced.

You say you can do better? Put your money where your mouth is. Go out and buy the hardware, hire the staff, and design the Next Big Game. Go on -- I'll wait. It's only a few million dollars, after all, and a couple of years of dedicated design and production is nothing, right?

Be thankful that we have games like EVE at all. With such a massively unappreciative audience, it's a wonder they even bother.
Eurydia Vespasian
Storm Hunters
#22 - 2013-08-20 04:34:39 UTC
^
item: bowl of cheerios.

status: pooped in.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#23 - 2013-08-20 06:59:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Alexa de'Crux wrote:
Ilia Tresnor wrote:
I didn't see this article about game devs being harassed and threatened with death anywhere on the forums, so I'll just put the link down over here and see what happens. Found on ars technica.

Someone needs to explain to these nutjobs they won't get internet access in prison. Maybe that will calm them down, as a few are no doubt headed there.


Unfortunately, this is a trend that I've seen repeated again and again and again. CCP, or another company, tries to do what's best for the longevity of their product, and the ungrateful masses throw the proverbial Christmas tie back in grandma's face.

Here's a message to those that feel the need to b----, moan and whine when CCP doesn't 'snap to':

Grow. Up.

Seriously.

Grow the hell up.

Game design is not easy, and I speak from experience. That a game of EVE's complexity is even possible speaks to the dedication and perseverance on CCP's part. Whinging and whining when it's not your 'ideal game' is beyond ungrateful, given the scale of what they've already produced.

You say you can do better? Put your money where your mouth is. Go out and buy the hardware, hire the staff, and design the Next Big Game. Go on -- I'll wait. It's only a few million dollars, after all, and a couple of years of dedicated design and production is nothing, right?

Be thankful that we have games like EVE at all. With such a massively unappreciative audience, it's a wonder they even bother.


Well, I didn't asked them to come and poop on my moral principles. As much as I admire and sometimes enjoy their master work, I still hate the message it conveys. And I am perfectly OK if they learn why it is wrong to convey such message.

Causing harm to the weaker is not fun. Rejoicing in it is not ethic. And building a game on such premises is somewhere between mildly evil and utterly stupid. It is no longer a game when suffer is real, and who causes it for fun, deserves to get it back. As the ones who set up the device why that happened.

So, in my opinion, if CCP make a game about unconsequential virtual harrassment, they deserve to be unconsequentially harrassed back, at least virtually, i.e. eat forum hate and such.

"Someone pushed me because of your game and because of your game I can't push him back, so I push you back instead", that's fair in my book.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Slade Trillgon
Brutor Force Federated
#24 - 2013-08-20 11:13:18 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

"Someone pushed me because of your game and because of your game I can't push him back, so I push you back instead", that's fair in my book.


But you can push back as pushing is advocated by the games design Roll
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-08-20 13:02:15 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Alexa de'Crux wrote:
Ilia Tresnor wrote:
I didn't see this article about game devs being harassed and threatened with death anywhere on the forums, so I'll just put the link down over here and see what happens. Found on ars technica.

Someone needs to explain to these nutjobs they won't get internet access in prison. Maybe that will calm them down, as a few are no doubt headed there.


Unfortunately, this is a trend that I've seen repeated again and again and again. CCP, or another company, tries to do what's best for the longevity of their product, and the ungrateful masses throw the proverbial Christmas tie back in grandma's face.

Here's a message to those that feel the need to b----, moan and whine when CCP doesn't 'snap to':

Grow. Up.

Seriously.

Grow the hell up.

Game design is not easy, and I speak from experience. That a game of EVE's complexity is even possible speaks to the dedication and perseverance on CCP's part. Whinging and whining when it's not your 'ideal game' is beyond ungrateful, given the scale of what they've already produced.

You say you can do better? Put your money where your mouth is. Go out and buy the hardware, hire the staff, and design the Next Big Game. Go on -- I'll wait. It's only a few million dollars, after all, and a couple of years of dedicated design and production is nothing, right?

Be thankful that we have games like EVE at all. With such a massively unappreciative audience, it's a wonder they even bother.


Well, I didn't asked them to come and poop on my moral principles. As much as I admire and sometimes enjoy their master work, I still hate the message it conveys. And I am perfectly OK if they learn why it is wrong to convey such message.

Causing harm to the weaker is not fun. Rejoicing in it is not ethic. And building a game on such premises is somewhere between mildly evil and utterly stupid. It is no longer a game when suffer is real, and who causes it for fun, deserves to get it back. As the ones who set up the device why that happened.

So, in my opinion, if CCP make a game about unconsequential virtual harrassment, they deserve to be unconsequentially harrassed back, at least virtually, i.e. eat forum hate and such.

"Someone pushed me because of your game and because of your game I can't push him back, so I push you back instead", that's fair in my book.

a) as Slade said, you can do it, as it is advocated by the game's design

b) more specifically to EVE, welcome to one of the many possible outcomes of mankind in space, simulated in this game, and playing with the fact that humans will be humans.

TL;DR, stop being disappointed with mankind's ugliness, take it as a fact, and be surprised by the good acts instead. cynical? yes, extremely, I can see that myself. doesn't make it less true tho...

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#26 - 2013-08-20 13:07:31 UTC
Slade Trillgon wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

"Someone pushed me because of your game and because of your game I can't push him back, so I push you back instead", that's fair in my book.


But you can push back as pushing is advocated by the games design Roll


Game design also grants secret and anonimacy to agressors so victims are negated both defense and revenge.

Steal corp, buy new char, rinse and repeat.

Gank, biomass char, start new alt, repeat.

Scam, transfer money to main, biomass, start new alt, repeat.

EVE would not exist without those design decissions that allow scoundrel escape the consequences of their actions.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Slade Trillgon
Brutor Force Federated
#27 - 2013-08-20 13:15:08 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:


Game design also grants secret and anonimacy to agressors so victims are negated both defense and revenge.

Steal corp, buy new char, rinse and repeat.

Gank, biomass char, start new alt, repeat.

Scam, transfer money to main, biomass, start new alt, repeat.

EVE would not exist without those design decissions that allow scoundrel escape the consequences of their actions.


True, but with more than a little work you can screen all those you let into your corp via limited access keys top check for alts. You can monitor character sales. It is all a process called due diligence, as in the real world due diligence is a pain in the arse. If you do not want to do it and you lay your trust in those that do not really deserve it then all you mentioned can happen. Those that work through all the hurdles to gain trust and then stab you in the back are usually the ones that do not hide after the fact as they want to revile in the glory of their accomplishment, and you can then push back.


Oh and ganking and biomassing is heavily frowned upon by CCP, that is why said characters must grind back the negative sec status before they can biomass.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#28 - 2013-08-20 13:29:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
Slade Trillgon wrote:
Oh and ganking and biomassing is heavily frowned upon by CCP, that is why said characters must grind back the negative sec status before they can biomass.


Is that new? Can't biomass chars with negative sec status? How much negative status would that be?

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-08-20 14:20:22 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Slade Trillgon wrote:
Oh and ganking and biomassing is heavily frowned upon by CCP, that is why said characters must grind back the negative sec status before they can biomass.


Is that new? Can't biomass chars with negative sec status? How much negative status would that be?

my guess is that this "rule" is more of a per-case basis.

biomass a single character that has neg status once in a blue moon every leap year that ends up in a monday, and CCP won't do much.

start doing it as a common practice, and banhammer in yo face.


..or so I'm lead into thinking.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#30 - 2013-08-20 14:33:28 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Slade Trillgon wrote:
Oh and ganking and biomassing is heavily frowned upon by CCP, that is why said characters must grind back the negative sec status before they can biomass.


Is that new? Can't biomass chars with negative sec status? How much negative status would that be?


No, that's been around for at least a year now to prevent creating throw aways for high sec griefing.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#31 - 2013-08-20 15:40:33 UTC
I'd rather have the idiots in our game anyway doing crap instead of doing what the 3 bored children who shot that Australian Baseball Player yesterday in America did "just to kill someone" out of boredom.

EVE is the lesser of 2 evils in that respect.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#32 - 2013-08-20 16:11:32 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
I'd rather have the idiots in our game anyway doing crap instead of doing what the 3 bored children who shot that Australian Baseball Player yesterday in America did "just to kill someone" out of boredom.

EVE is the lesser of 2 evils in that respect.


I have that up on msn right now. I wont discuss it here but I will say that is horribly ****** up.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#33 - 2013-08-20 16:50:03 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
I'd rather have the idiots in our game anyway doing crap instead of doing what the 3 bored children who shot that Australian Baseball Player yesterday in America did "just to kill someone" out of boredom.

EVE is the lesser of 2 evils in that respect.


That's a whole different level of wrong, and it's absolutely disgusting. It has nothing to do with 'boredom,' either, because there's plenty to do when you're bored; it's just not all entertainment and diversion. The level of entitlement on display there is staggering. My thoughts go out to the victim's family and friends.

If a game like EVE dulls impulses like that even slightly by allowing people to listen to their shoulder devils for a while in a virtual environment, then I agree that it's a net win. That would be an interesting research study.



Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#34 - 2013-08-20 16:50:27 UTC
It is indeed ***-ed up. And sadly typical.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Alexa de'Crux
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2013-08-20 20:29:43 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

So, in my opinion, if CCP make a game about unconsequential virtual harrassment, they deserve to be unconsequentially harrassed back, at least virtually, i.e. eat forum hate and such.


Read the article again. It's not talking about 'forum hate'; it's talking about threats of physical harm to developers and their families. In the US, sending a threat letter (or an e-mail) sent across state lines is a Federal crime.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#36 - 2013-08-20 20:33:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Those 3 kids are now charged as adults ftw.

edit: Reading comments in SF Chronicle and people want these idiots up for death penalty. Yes, in California even.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Inokuma Yawara
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2013-08-20 22:17:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Inokuma Yawara
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
That's an interesting read... this piece really caught my eye, though:

Quote:
It's important to listen to fans about what's important to them, but it's equally important to listen to people who are not currently gamers about why they aren't playing. Hardcore gamers want a product that is made specifically for them and is actively unfriendly to anyone new. They will beg and bully to get this product and then praise and wax nostalgic over any game that lives up to their standards even if the company that made it went bankrupt. They don't care about keeping companies in business or artists employed. Their only job as fans is to say what pleases them, and it would be foolish to expect them to think beyond that. But to cater to those desires without thinking about how to bring new audiences in and make them comfortable will ultimately result in a stagnant and money-losing industry


CCP should hire that person. Bear


You hear THAT, all you Carebear haters, and Nerf High Sec mongers? You're gonna be the ruin of CCP! So STFU already! P

(please don't hunt me down and kill me or **** my wife in rl, mmkay?)

Watch this space.  New exciting signature in development.

Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#38 - 2013-08-20 22:24:00 UTC
Inokuma Yawara wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
That's an interesting read... this piece really caught my eye, though:

Quote:
It's important to listen to fans about what's important to them, but it's equally important to listen to people who are not currently gamers about why they aren't playing. Hardcore gamers want a product that is made specifically for them and is actively unfriendly to anyone new. They will beg and bully to get this product and then praise and wax nostalgic over any game that lives up to their standards even if the company that made it went bankrupt. They don't care about keeping companies in business or artists employed. Their only job as fans is to say what pleases them, and it would be foolish to expect them to think beyond that. But to cater to those desires without thinking about how to bring new audiences in and make them comfortable will ultimately result in a stagnant and money-losing industry


CCP should hire that person. Bear


You hear THAT, all you Carebear haters, and Nerf High Sec mongers? You're gonna be the ruin of CCP! So STFU already! P

(please don't hunt me down and kill me or **** my wife in rl, mmkay?)



Why not? My subscription runs out in October and I've got a metric buttload of ships and wardec funds I can offload until then.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **

Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#39 - 2013-08-21 19:13:16 UTC
Hey, uh, I was just joking about that hunting you comment. You guys can come back.







Please?

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **

Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2013-08-21 21:12:54 UTC
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Hey, uh, I was just joking about that hunting you comment. You guys can come back.







Please?

micheal dietrich, yous becoming a whorum fore.

P

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

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