Intergalactic Summit

It certainly is. There have certainly been cases where followers of the Amarr faith in the Minmatar Republic have faced even worse discrimination than that, as well. I recently needed to move three families to a colony of believers twelve jumps from their original home. The reason they wanted to move so far? The fourth family of faithful were caught meditating on Scriptures, surrounded by the local townsfolk, and skinned alive. Their flesh was tanned and set on a flagpole in the center of town.

As I said, this was by far a minority. From my experience, the violent minority of people who will assault someone of the faith is still smaller than the minority of Matari who will personally defend them. The problem is, those two groups of people aren't often mingled. I've found it more common traveling out into low security space that the violent minority tends to act brazenly.

The majority simply don't care, one way or another. It is a small number that I've seen, though, who would commit such atrocities.

Then again, this may also be a matter of time. Perhaps it has dulled the hatred that you perhaps experienced as a child. Certainly, I was only relatively recently given my mission and only very recently have I become a capsuleer. My exploration of Minmatar space has all been fairly recent, within the last five years.

Have you found that things are changing? Or do I simply not see enough of the violence from my admittedly limited explorations?

Baracca,

While my recent experience in the past three years has been limited due to...certain circumstances...I have found ways and means to return to Republic space time-to-time without raising alarm among my old kin. For almost a year now I've been spending an increasing time planet-side which has helped evolve my perspective. The experiences I've had since I grew up in the Republic to now, where the CEWPA conflict has been going on for over five years has indeed changed, though it hasn't been for the best in my view.

Personally, I have begun to see an increase in hostility and rejection of many outsiders. Barring the discussion of religion, outsiders such as but not limited to the Starkmanir, Nefantar, and Federals still face much difficulty in being accepted and respected. Slow improvements should be expected with such great changes and events, but I have seen little-to-no improvement among the old tribes and even a decline towards the Federals.

I do feel that Matari care for the greater whole of their people but there is much differing as to how the goals of betterment can be achieved among us. While the Matari people have always disagreed, as do any other parties involved in running a nation, the violence and aggression that passions harbor have continued and increased. The Bloody Hands of Matar still operate without the government doing anything about their Matari-on-Matari bloodshed. The government itself seems to support uncalled for violence, ala Coliele, and does not voice any kind of restraint against hate and violence whether it be against other Matari or outsiders.

I certainly felt more comfortable living in the Republic when Karin Midular was leading our people. Many have called her an appeaser, but she had common-sense and the mind of a leader to guide her people towards stability and progress. Shakor, being the warlord he is and always has been, does not have this knowledge and only knows how to lead in war. Sadly, the Matari people seem to accept this and, at least when I first joined the Minmatar militia, begged for his violent action. I certainly was guilty to think he would lead our people to progress and emancipation yet he has made no reforms in five years and certainly hasn't made any effort to empower the Matari people.

Perhaps I am drifting off-topic again, and I apologize. The question was how do I see things changing and honestly, they are not changing that much from when the war first broke out. There was a great appeal to our leaders to act back then. Karin Midular was seen as inept and unable to help the Minmatar Nation grow but, in retrospect, she did a lot better than Shakor. Our impatience has led us down a path of violence that, until recently, we were not treading. Our leaders have led us astray and failed to be responsible for the people they claim to represent. The change happened before the war broke out, and the change slowly continues to drift down a downward path.

It is up to Matari other than myself to lift up the Minmatar Nation and change this path. I hope capsuleers like those among Electus Matari, can help the baseline population to reach this alteration.

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Vikarion,

I'm glad to see we were saying much of the same thing. However, I think a few things should be made clear.

First, I originally wasn't talking about Caldari living in the Empire who followed Amarrian beliefs. The original point was about outsiders living in the Empire following their own (ie. not Amarrian) cultural beliefs, such as the Caldari people who live and operate there.

As we've gone over, you can still be a Caldari with Caldari beliefs outside of the State in places such as the Empire, or even the Republic. Caldari can be non-citizens of these foreign countries, or they could theoretically still be citizens while maintaining their Caldari culture and beliefs. In the previous excerpts I pulled from your source, it stated that many citizens of Amarr who are forced, as a part of citizenship, to make an oath to the Amarr faith do not, in fact, believe in the faith. Could these men and women not be Caldari simply because they had to pledge a false oath due to circumstance? I personally believe they are still to be considered Caldari, however I am obviously biased in this regard and I will cover this shortly.

The second issue I wish to discuss is that of a Caldari, or any loyalist, who doesn't adhere to the national identity. Those of Mordu's Legion and other examples I could make are still Caldari in my mind. One may not always agree with the governments decisions and directions and this often causes them to split off. I don't believe this makes them less of what they were before; if anything it only proves their bravery and resolve to stick to what they believe is best. The example of Heth leading the Caldari down an otherwise 'un-Caldari path' of dictatorship is as good of an example as you may find. People may not always agree with governance or their peers, but that does not make them less of who they are.

That brings me to the other thing I was going to discuss, though only briefly. I may have left the Republic three years ago and even turned against it by leading militia forces of the 24th IC against the TLF and affiliates, but I still do and always will consider myself Matari because that is who I am, who I was raised to be, and how I think and act. I don't care what labels people may give me as they are insignificant. Call me a traitor, coward, or murderer but I know why I did what I did and it certainly wasn't because I no longer was Matari.

-Eran

Although Vikarion covered it admirably perhaps I can summarise.

1. Caldari is not a genetic grouping that belongs merely to the bloodlines 'Civire' and 'Deteis' and 'Achur'.
2. Caldari is not a cultural grouping that includes 'seafood', 'utilitarian' and 'wayist'.
3. Caldari is not a grouping that is defined by 'habitation within the political unit known as "The Caldari State".'

Caldari are those who are citizens of the State - or members of institutions like the Caldari Navy. Citizenship is not a state of mind - it is an award given for service. Citizenship is not a right it is a privilige.

We are not inclusive. We do not seek new members or expansion, in general.

Word length is not the issue, sometimes longer words convey concepts more precisely. Perhaps you can simply structure your argument in a more concise and logical fashion. Fewer and better words?

The only original point I cared to make was that there are Caldari, in whatever sense of your requirements, living in the Empire space whom are free to follow their customs of culture & spiritualism. The only reason I brought it up was in response to this:



I wished to make it clear that practice of other religions in the Empire is possible without being a criminal in certain circumstances. I understand that it is illegal as a citizen, but that is not the argument I was making.



As to where this discussion has gone lately, all I care to say is that everyone has their own ideology for labeling ethos.

More specifically, the labels of ethos go beyond race but definitions of what ethos is. In regards to the ethos of Caldari, Amarr, Minmatar, and Gallente, there are many who differ on how to label them. Diana Kim is a good example and I surely don't mean that as an insult, but extremists are great at showing just how much people can differ in this. The people more towards the center on any issue may not have such telling differences but there, of course, are some.

So in short; Your labeling will not always be agreed with. Let's just agree to disagree.

-Eran

Certainly, which is why I mentioned Diana Kim. Even Gesakaarin brought up some points that conflict with the cut-and-dry logic of Vikarion. I never said that my opinions on the matter of Caldari ethos to be more valid. I think too many assumptions are being made of the simple things I am saying.

-Eran

Agreed.

I wouldn't mind if the definition of Amarr were as straightforward as Caldari. Right now, it might refer to someone who is True Amarr, a citizen of the Empire, a product of the culture of that Empire, or someone who follows the Amarr faith. It's messy, but that's what happens when you have a theocratic Empire dominated by a specific ethnic group. Things blend together.