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[Proposal] Suspect flag for ninja-salvaging in highsecs.

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Kyon Rheyne
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-08-16 14:59:43 UTC
Essentially, profit from selling loot from wreck isn't in any way different from profit from selling parts gained through salvaging. But for some reason current game mechanics won't allow you to at least defend your property in form of potentially valuable wrecks with arms. I'm not asking to get them all concorded, EVE is the universe of many possibilities. But also, its a place where one has to be aware of consequences following his actons, and be able to assess the risks while making the descision. And currently ninja salvaging doesn't carry any risks at all. And on the other hand it's became quite widespread and very frustrating issue for missionrunners. If the ninjas want those wrecks, make them at least try harder to not be killed in the process.
As for (probable) perfomance issues, at least, some timer should be added, something around 10-20 minutes, and if a mission runner was absent from a pocket for that long, all wrecks become free salvagable for all
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2013-08-16 15:40:06 UTC
This would be a great way for people to trap PVE fit ships with PVP gank squads. It would end up just like can flipping.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
Kyon Rheyne
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2013-08-16 15:46:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyon Rheyne
Leto Thule wrote:
This would be a great way for people to trap PVE fit ships with PVP gank squads. It would end up just like can flipping.


They currently can do that by stealing from wrecks as well. But there are lot of those who don't intend to do anything other than stealing your salvage. At least, the descision what to do with the thief should be delegated to player owning the wreck, as it is done in case of stealing loot from it. I sincerely don't see a point in separation of those two cases.
With suspect flag added, for example, a gang including a pricy BS doing the job and some cheaper and lesser size ship assisting him and doing salvage, could try to defend their profit from some ninja-salvager on t1 frigate. Cheaper one would do the job while bs wouldn't get involved. Currently there are no means at all to defend it other than shooting your wrecks.
Michael Loney
Skullspace Industries
#4 - 2013-08-16 16:32:26 UTC
+1 for Support

I have always wondered why the best salvage ship in the game ( Noctis ) has a huge bonus to the tractor range but cannot drag in things you don't own. There is no penalty for salvaging another players things so why not add the suspect flag to both tractor beams and salvage but let us tractor other players stuff?

Drag a can far away, then salvage / loot it and run -OR- Pick a fight by dragging miners cans around.


I realize that jet-can mining would be a pain if someone could move your cans around but the suspect flag would help mitigate this.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#5 - 2013-08-16 17:44:52 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Huh... haven't seen someone complain about this in awhile.

Per CCP Mitnal:
CCP Mitnal wrote:
"Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."

Per GM Faolchu :
GM Faolchu wrote:
Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.

Per Senior GM Ytterbium :
GM Ytterbium wrote:
Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.

Per CCP Prism X :
CCP Prism X wrote:
Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.

Per CCP Incognito :
CCP Incognito wrote:
Had a chat with some designers this evening.
Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private.
They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.

(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)

How did you Veterans start?
Michael Loney
Skullspace Industries
#6 - 2013-08-16 17:54:20 UTC
Well...

Given the obvious and overwhelming CCP response on the topic, salvaging should not give a suspect flag -BUT- We should be able to drag this "space-junk" around no matter who 'owns' it.

Let us tractor wreaks at all times !
Kyon Rheyne
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2013-08-16 18:42:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyon Rheyne
ShahFluffers , people sometimes make bad decisions, even if they are EVE game designers. This happened in past, this will happen in future, sad thing. As for this condtradicting qoute,

GM Faolchu wrote:
Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.


see, how easly it can be transformed:

Stealing other peoples loot.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People stealing your loot from npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are stealing what is effectively floating in a rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this stuff.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If stealing some loot gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.

Still, stealing loot is a no-go, why?. Its simply rediculous. Yes, salvaging can be a mini-profession, and many conclude agreements with mission runners and split the profit. But ninja-salvaging is stealing, from any point of view. And it calls for suspect flag being set on perpetrator. That won't stop those who are going to do it the harsh way, but there should be some consequences for them. All this contradictions make me think the reason CCP don't want to fix it is more of techincal nature, than of game design.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#8 - 2013-08-16 21:10:24 UTC
EVE's salvage laws mirror RL salvage laws if you want to bring "from any point of view" into it.

The other "point of view" is that CCP originally introduced salvage as the basis of a new profession, not simply to increase the rewards from missioning.

Still, no doubt you're bringing a fresh new perspective that the other 1000 salvage whine threads lack.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-08-16 21:24:33 UTC
Michael Loney wrote:
Well...

Given the obvious and overwhelming CCP response on the topic, salvaging should not give a suspect flag -BUT- We should be able to drag this "space-junk" around no matter who 'owns' it.

Let us tractor wreaks at all times !


This? NO

As a mission runner (at times) I can imagine someone grabbing the ship carrying the McGuffin I need to complete the mission and towing it way the hell off and demanding ransom.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Mag's
Azn Empire
#10 - 2013-08-16 21:48:34 UTC
Kyon Rheyne wrote:
ShahFluffers , people sometimes make bad decisions, even if they are EVE game designers. This happened in past, this will happen in future, sad thing. As for this condtradicting qoute,

GM Faolchu wrote:
Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.


see, how easly it can be transformed:

Stealing other peoples loot.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People stealing your loot from npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are stealing what is effectively floating in a rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this stuff.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If stealing some loot gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.

Still, stealing loot is a no-go, why?. Its simply rediculous. Yes, salvaging can be a mini-profession, and many conclude agreements with mission runners and split the profit. But ninja-salvaging is stealing, from any point of view. And it calls for suspect flag being set on perpetrator. That won't stop those who are going to do it the harsh way, but there should be some consequences for them. All this contradictions make me think the reason CCP don't want to fix it is more of techincal nature, than of game design.
But the reason why loot stealing is flagged, is because it already exists. Therefore a theft has taken place.

Salvage on the other hand, is completely different and was made this way by design from the start. You need to run a salvager first on a wreck, in order to create the salvage. If someone then somehow manages to steal your salvage, then this too would be flagged.

It's a mini profession and as such you are competing with others to run your salvager on the wrecks. If you run your salvager well, then you are rewarded with the newly created salvage. If you fail, then your competitor wins.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#11 - 2013-08-20 08:19:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Jint Hikaru
Kyon Rheyne wrote:
. All this contradictions make me think the reason CCP don't want to fix it is more of techincal nature, than of game design.



You couldn't be more wrong. CCP made a decision that Salvaging is a profession. And much like Maritime Law, and pretty much the definition of the word 'Salvage' , it is first come, first served.

maybe, rather than crying on the forums about it, you should fly with a friend who salvages for you (this is an MMO).

or, Fit a salvager to your missioning ship.... but that might impact your isk/hour mission setup.. Oh noes!

or, Don't mission in a busy mission hub,


To be honest, I'm quite surprised that a 2007 character is complaining about this.

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-08-20 11:56:33 UTC
You're right, can stealing should go back to not flagging you like it used to be.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#13 - 2013-08-21 08:19:20 UTC
Jint Hikaru wrote:

To be honest, I'm quite surprised that a 2007 character is complaining about this.


Looking at the number of salvage whinethreads in the 2007 forums, I'm not.

Incidentally, as long as we're being all "real life" about it, shooting empire faction rats should incurr a criminal flag should it not?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Michael Loney
Skullspace Industries
#14 - 2013-08-21 13:15:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Loney
Mike Azariah wrote:
As a mission runner (at times) I can imagine someone grabbing the ship carrying the McGuffin I need to complete the mission and towing it way the hell off and demanding ransom.


Normally when this happens it drops in a can next to the wreck ( I know not always )

What if all wrecks that drop loot dropped it into a can siting beside the wreck?

Salvage hunters can freely drag and salvage wreck's while the mission runner's 'McGuffin' is protected from being moved.

I realize it will cause more server load as if effectively doubles the objects in space after a battle but it means my shiny Noctis actually has a purpose when cleaning up a battle / mission I was not part of.