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Sarum Family Heir recommends assault on Republic

Author
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#261 - 2013-08-28 02:01:33 UTC
Vikarion wrote:
Mr. "Fred",

You are actually interesting to talk to, even fun. If you should want, at some point, to bring a Caldari nationalist on your show - not to presume you would, of course - please feel free to contact me.


I will keep this in mind. One thing my show has been lacking were guests speakers and view points other than my own. I would be more than happy to contact you should I feel your opinion on a subject would add a lot to the episode.

Quote:
First, please understand that I don't intend to be an apologist for Heth, but rather for the State. Heth is deposed, the State endures. I do not make the mistake - as Heth did - of thinking that any particular Caldari life, including my own, is more important than the whole. So it may seem heartless, but it is the Caldari way to consider the sacrifice reasonable, if the State is made stronger.


I suppose this is where cultural differences come into play. Simply put, the Caldari would be willing to sacrifice one person if it meant saving a hundred. The Gallente on the other hand would not be willing to do so and possibly even let a hundred people die to avoid letting one person be singled out. In the State the group makes up the individual, in the Federation the individual makes up the group. Both philosophies can easily be debated though I don't feel this is the time to do so.

After careful thinking, I can see your point regarding the economics of the State. You've convinced me that they are more sound and reliable than I initially thought. So we can drop the topic and move on. I'm not sure how they would stack up to the economics of say, the Federation, but that's another topic for another day.

Quote:
In response to some of your first words, I did not use "aid missions" to mock you, but rather because that is the label they were given by the Federation before someone peeled open one of the freighters.


I'm not trying to defend the decision to send out this false aid mission, but you must remember that our two nations are at war, to an extent of course. Nothing full scale but conflict certainly erupts quite often. I wouldn't call it a cold war but it does have that atmosphere. That being said calling that shipment an aid mission was just your typical cloak and dagger type operation. Personally I think it's a bit scummy to claim you are sending aid when it's really a military operation, a number of other fronts could of been used in lieu of an aid mission.

Though keep in mind the State has done something similar recently. After the Battle for Caldari Prime it was revealed that one of several prototype variants of the scorpion battleships were stolen from Ishukone. Mind you that these battleships were in low orbit so they were not merely escorting the relief convoys. Apparently they were tracking Provist troops from orbit to make the evacuation go smoothly, but I find it more likely they were gathering data on Gallente positions. Of course, it's possible a Gallentean stole the ship as well. Even to this day, cold war cloak and dagger operations are still taking place.

Quote:
In regards to Malkanen, with the way you speak of it, one would think that the Caldari were responsible. We were not, although I hesitate to think it necessary to say so. Either a Gallente Admiral piloted a Nyx into one of our stations, or the Gallente Navy let someone else do it, through intention or incompetence. Either way, it is also true that the Gallente Navy opened fire ((TEA)) on Caldari forces around the station. While I understand why that might have happened, it's not exactly a shining testament to either discipline or your innocence.

Let us put the shoe on the other foot: If a Caldari Wyvern was directed into a Gallente station, say one containing your president, and then the surrounding Caldari ships opened fire on the Gallente escort, how reasonable would you be feeling afterwards?


Rest assured I was not trying to make the Caldari sound responsible. At best the incident occurred due to Federation incompetence, or it was a deliberate attack at worst. Booster induced conspiracy theorist claim it was some special agent hired by Heth but I doubt that was the case.

If the shoe was on the other foot I would not be very reasonable. However, the fervent anti-gallente attitude that swept across the State (especially after Heth added fuel to the fire) was completely unnecessary. The actions of one man and a few panicked subordinates suddenly defined the Gallente as crazed terrorist who want to destroy everything Caldari. While I personally would be very upset with the Caldari if such a thing happened to us, I doubt we would see the extreme hatred and even calls to commit genocide here in the Federation.

Quote:
Lastly, I can assure you that the Caldari, and the Caldari State, are not interested in adopting Gallente ideals. Nonetheless, because this is not an area I do explore, I'm interested in knowing what you would want us to adopt, and why?


I feel a representative body similar to that of the Gallente Senate could be easily and effectively incorporated into the Caldari State. The Chief Executive Panel could be expanded to not only include CEOs but also major shareholders. For example, if a

In otherwords, where one share would equal one vote in corporate decisions, why not expand that into national decisions? It wouldn't be universal suffrage, however it would allow many folk to have a voice in national decisions. The Caldari people's willingness to protest even when guns are pointed at them show that they have a voice that is aching to be heard.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#262 - 2013-08-28 03:33:03 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

Rest assured I was not trying to make the Caldari sound responsible. At best the incident occurred due to Federation incompetence, or it was a deliberate attack at worst. Booster induced conspiracy theorist claim it was some special agent hired by Heth but I doubt that was the case.

If the shoe was on the other foot I would not be very reasonable. However, the fervent anti-gallente attitude that swept across the State (especially after Heth added fuel to the fire) was completely unnecessary. The actions of one man and a few panicked subordinates suddenly defined the Gallente as crazed terrorist who want to destroy everything Caldari. While I personally would be very upset with the Caldari if such a thing happened to us, I doubt we would see the extreme hatred and even calls to commit genocide here in the Federation.


A Federation Admiral stuffed a Federation Capital Ship into a Caldari Station. The ONLY thing that makes me think it might NOT have been a decapitation strike is that the Federation negotiating team was in place. Of course, you're right, the Gallente Navy escort immediately started attacking the Caldari Navy security picket, but I wouldn't like to lay money on who fired first. Under the circumstances, I understand their reaction.

On the other hand, when somebody took out a few Dreadnoughts and we've seen outbreaks of racially fuelled violence against Matari within the Federation in EXACTLY the same way that the Caldari have responded to embedded Gallente populations after Federation atrocities.

Don't think you're different to us, just because nobody's done to you what has been done to us.



Fredfredbug4 wrote:
I feel a representative body similar to that of the Gallente Senate could be easily and effectively incorporated into the Caldari State. The Chief Executive Panel could be expanded to not only include CEOs but also major shareholders.

In otherwords, where one share would equal one vote in corporate decisions, why not expand that into national decisions? It wouldn't be universal suffrage, however it would allow many folk to have a voice in national decisions. The Caldari people's willingness to protest even when guns are pointed at them show that they have a voice that is aching to be heard.


Those people protested to preserve our way of life, not because they wanted it destroyed. I was one of those who tried to protect the protesters and I didn't do it because I wanted democracy, trust me! They did it because Heth's meritocracy was collapsing into nepotism and oligarchy.

As for the idea of a Senate - why do you want a central government in the State? Heth was the only truly centralised power figure we've had since the exodus from Home and you certainly didn't like the changes HE made. Perhaps the State is best left the way it is now? The way it runs best? Eight Corporations. A Comittee of CEOs. One vote per share. The Shareholders DO have a voice in national affairs, as they can vote to replace a CEO that doesn't act in their interests.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#263 - 2013-08-28 04:21:52 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:


Don't think you're different to us, just because nobody's done to you what has been done to us.


It's interesting how Caldari Nationalist claim to be so different from the Gallente, yet also argue that we would respond the same as they would in the same situation. While I personally believe the Gallente and the Caldari are more similar than one might think, our cultural differences alone can influence our behaviors more than you might think.

Quote:
Those people protested to preserve our way of life, not because they wanted it destroyed. I was one of those who tried to protect the protesters and I didn't do it because I wanted democracy, trust me! They did it because Heth's meritocracy was collapsing into nepotism and oligarchy.

As for the idea of a Senate - why do you want a central government in the State? Heth was the only truly centralised power figure we've had since the exodus from Home and you certainly didn't like the changes HE made. Perhaps the State is best left the way it is now? The way it runs best? Eight Corporations. A Comittee of CEOs. One vote per share. The Shareholders DO have a voice in national affairs, as they can vote to replace a CEO that doesn't act in their interests.


My reference to the protest was more around the fact that the Caldari people actually do have voices, yet they are not being adequately represented within their government. Not that they want democracy.

There's a massive difference between putting all the power in one person and spreading it out among other people. If there was a Senate or other type of representative body, men like Heth would be out voiced and significantly less of a threat to the nation. I feel that the State is running well with the CEP, yet could run even better. A representative body would allow for the government to be centralized without giving someone too much power, as well as allowing all the megacorps to retain their independence. Being able to replace a CEO that doesn't act in shareholder interest is not enough I'm afraid. A step in the right direction yes, but could be expanded upon.

Of course, this is all the talk of a loyal Gallente citizen. While I do trace half my ancestry to the State, I am for all intents and purposes, full Gallente.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#264 - 2013-08-28 04:27:42 UTC
Dear God, I hope the Empire conquers you all just so you lot will shut up.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#265 - 2013-08-28 04:36:47 UTC
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
Dear God, I hope the Empire conquers you all just so you lot will shut up.


The Gallente and Caldari have proper intellectual debates, the Minmatar try to have proper intellectual debates (though regrettably get derailed by the Amarr), and the Amarr just throw temper tantrums hoping that someone takes them seriously.

Hmm, this gives me an episode idea...

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#266 - 2013-08-28 05:08:16 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
Dear God, I hope the Empire conquers you all just so you lot will shut up.


The Gallente and Caldari have proper intellectual debates, the Minmatar try to have proper intellectual debates (though regrettably get derailed by the Amarr), and the Amarr just throw temper tantrums hoping that someone takes them seriously.

Hmm, this gives me an episode idea...


Give Aldrith a break. The man's had a trying five or ten years.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#267 - 2013-08-28 05:18:38 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
Dear God, I hope the Empire conquers you all just so you lot will shut up.


The Gallente and Caldari have proper intellectual debates, the Minmatar try to have proper intellectual debates (though regrettably get derailed by the Amarr), and the Amarr just throw temper tantrums hoping that someone takes them seriously.

Hmm, this gives me an episode idea...


Using "temper tantrums" to describe the Amarr is a statement much farther from the truth than you could make.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#268 - 2013-08-28 09:00:44 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
Dear God, I hope the Empire conquers you all just so you lot will shut up.


The Gallente and Caldari have proper intellectual debates, the Minmatar try to have proper intellectual debates (though regrettably get derailed by the Amarr), and the Amarr just throw temper tantrums hoping that someone takes them seriously.

Hmm, this gives me an episode idea...


Oh, the irony...

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Confliktus
Perkone
Caldari State
#269 - 2013-08-28 10:00:26 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
Dear God, I hope the Empire conquers you all just so you lot will shut up.


The Gallente and Caldari have proper intellectual debates, the Minmatar try to have proper intellectual debates (though regrettably get derailed by the Amarr), and the Amarr just throw temper tantrums hoping that someone takes them seriously.

Hmm, this gives me an episode idea...


Oh, the irony...


Well when your Amarrian Council comes out with inflamable coments on the Com Net. and other high placed dignitaries come out with contradictory statments and lastly pleading for calm then i'd say that the joke and the irony of the situation is fully on your side Amarrian.
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#270 - 2013-08-28 11:45:34 UTC
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
You'd be amazed at what a charming smile and a few random acts of kindness and loyalty can achieve. Apparently it makes theives into gaurdians, crime lords into saints, and torturers into friends. This fact is rooted in the rather selfish notion that as long as someone treats you and those you care about well, they are good. 'Of course it does not matter what complete strangers are suffering for at Mr. Verone's hands, they must have done something to deserve it!'

It is no secret that most capsuleers are morally blind as bats. It is the default setting for them, it seems.

And yes, you too Ava.


Funny, coming from a man who is fighting to place the whole cluster into a torturer's chains.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"

Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#271 - 2013-08-28 16:08:10 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
And yes, you too Ava.


Funny, coming from a man who is fighting to place the whole cluster into a torturer's chains.


Are you saying he doesn't have a point, Starfire?

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#272 - 2013-08-28 17:15:37 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
Dear God, I hope the Empire conquers you all just so you lot will shut up.


The Gallente and Caldari have proper intellectual debates, the Minmatar try to have proper intellectual debates (though regrettably get derailed by the Amarr), and the Amarr just throw temper tantrums hoping that someone takes them seriously.

Hmm, this gives me an episode idea...


Using "temper tantrums" to describe the Amarr is a statement much farther from the truth than you could make.


I fear that describing them in the manner they deserve to be described in would be too inflammatory for this setting, no matter how fitting.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#273 - 2013-08-28 17:36:54 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Eran Mintor wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
Dear God, I hope the Empire conquers you all just so you lot will shut up.


The Gallente and Caldari have proper intellectual debates, the Minmatar try to have proper intellectual debates (though regrettably get derailed by the Amarr), and the Amarr just throw temper tantrums hoping that someone takes them seriously.

Hmm, this gives me an episode idea...


Using "temper tantrums" to describe the Amarr is a statement much farther from the truth than you could make.


I fear that describing them in the manner they deserve to be described in would be too inflammatory for this setting, no matter how fitting.


You may have an issue with how Amarr do business but there's no sense in making insults about how they act, especially when they're false, should you hope to debate or negotiate.

Or perhaps you're just another one of those tiresome pundits with no interest in talking but simply want to gain ratings and cheap points.

-Eran
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#274 - 2013-08-28 17:58:46 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Eran Mintor wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
Dear God, I hope the Empire conquers you all just so you lot will shut up.


The Gallente and Caldari have proper intellectual debates, the Minmatar try to have proper intellectual debates (though regrettably get derailed by the Amarr), and the Amarr just throw temper tantrums hoping that someone takes them seriously.

Hmm, this gives me an episode idea...


Using "temper tantrums" to describe the Amarr is a statement much farther from the truth than you could make.


I fear that describing them in the manner they deserve to be described in would be too inflammatory for this setting, no matter how fitting.


You may have an issue with how Amarr do business but there's no sense in making insults about how they act, especially when they're false, should you hope to debate or negotiate.

Or perhaps you're just another one of those tiresome pundits with no interest in talking but simply want to gain ratings and cheap points.

-Eran


Ahem, I beg your pardon? No need to act tough when (I think) we are more or less on the same page.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#275 - 2013-08-28 18:06:05 UTC
On the same page? What would you mean by that?

-Eran
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#276 - 2013-08-28 18:07:34 UTC
You all do know I was making a sarcastic joke, right? Jeez, nobody can take a hint.

On another note, good to see you alive Eran! It has been quite a long time. I'd offer to get a drink with you but I am slightly preoccupied at the moment. Perhaps in a week or so?

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu

Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#277 - 2013-08-28 18:13:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Anabella Rella
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:

Are you saying he doesn't have a point, Starfire?


Not to speak for Ava but in my opinion he has no point. He's made a biased, self-serving, overly broad generalization and attempted to pass it off as fact. I have no idea who Shutaq knows or associates with but, the vast majority of the pilots that I'm personally acquainted with have quite strong morals and strive to behave in ways that benefit others beyond themselves.

Perhaps you should both broaden your circles of friends and/or re-evaluate your perceptions if you see the majority of people as evil. I may be sarcastic, pessimistic and jaded but, even I can still see the good that exists in most people, including capsuleers.

Edit: Ah, I see that he was making a humorous attempt as I was composing this response. Nevermind, please carry on your normally scheduled bickering.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#278 - 2013-08-28 18:26:55 UTC
Good to see you're alive as well Aldrith. The drink will have to wait a bit longer than that, I'm afraid.

And Rella, the point is that just because you make friends with someone doesn't mean they're a good person. His bit about the Empire was a joke but the part about Ethan, I believe, was not. He can be your friend or he can be your enemy, but pray you're not a crew member aboard a neutral ship should you ever cross his path. Capsuleers tend to overlook these details, and that was the point.

-Eran
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#279 - 2013-08-28 18:32:25 UTC
Not all of us do, Mintor. That was my point.

I don't pal around with criminals or other immoral types nor call them friends.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#280 - 2013-08-28 18:36:37 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
TomHorn wrote:
Quote:
I consider them to be true friends, even if I don't really know where Verone's got to of late.


You say Ethan Veron is a true friend Stitcher. What he is, is a viscious crimelord. Boss of the Veto crime syndicate, and a Gurista mercenary cell. I am staggered you would call Ethan Veron true friend.

Ethan Veron is a kidnapper,extortionist,hijacker,drug smuggler,unlicensed arms trader,murderer, has brought untold pain and misery upon thousands of citizens throughout New Eden. An enemy of the Caldari State these things he is.

Ethan Veron stands for everything you speak out against, corruption, murder, the pain and misery of citizens. If you say Ethan Veron is a true friend you are a hypocrite Stitcher. If you say Ethan veron is a true friend you are an enemy to all the nations of New Eden.

Ethan Veron is a criminal who should be hunted down arrested brought before a court of law to be judged for his crimes. He is no friend of the law abiding citizens of New Eden.



Verone was, is, and will always be, one of my closest friends.

Oh, dear. I hope that doesn't ruin people's opinion of me...


So then next time don't speak for your comrade, Rella.

-Eran