Intergalactic Summit

Mr. "Fred".

This response is too long delayed, but I've been busy planet-side. I'd like to deal with a few of your arguments now that I have a brief moment to do so. I have summarized the gist of your various points, each preceded by a number, and will respond to them as able.

1. The Caldari State does not know what is best for it. Tibus Heth proves this.
Actually, I doubt many Caldari will agree with the premise that all of Heth's initial actions were bad. The retraining programs and the focus on meritocracy he promised have not been abandoned. Nor are the Caldari entirely irritated about retaining possession of a good bit more than half of their homeworld. The problem with Heth is that he reneged on his reforms, while expanding his power and repeatedly erring in both the military and economic spheres.

Does this mean that the Caldari do not know what is good for them? Hardly. They selected Heth because of various promises and certain circumstances. When Heth failed to uphold Caldari values, he was deposed, quickly, and with relatively little violence. Now we will see how the new leader of KK and other Caldari CEOs step up to face the challenges of leadership.


2. The Caldari are the playthings of an Empire, specifically, the Amarr.
This would be true, perhaps, if the Amarr managed to dictate a single element of either Caldari external or internal policy. The reality is that the Amarr and Caldari are allies of trade and convenience. While the Federation is a market for Caldari goods, the fact remains that the Federation has continually subsidized its own manufacturers ((TEA)) to ensure that they are more competitive than they would be in a free market. The Amarr, on the other hand, do no such thing, thus providing the Caldari with an excellent export market for heavy machinery and electronics, while importing foodstuffs and raw materials. Furthermore, the military might of the Amarr, combined with our own, means that an attack by the Federation on either of us will result in the destruction of the Federation by the two most powerful navies in the cluster. Conversely, the Amarr are not nearly as threatening to the Caldari as the Federation is.

3. The Caldari are not the most powerful military force because they lost the battle of Caldari Prime.
Well. I must confess that this seems a non-sequitor. It is true that the Caldari lost the battle of Caldari Prime. This would be, in fact, one of the military blunders of Heth, as noted earlier. A very small portion of the Caldari Navy was essentially marooned above CP, with no reinforcements or aid available, while the Gallente were free to continually warp in more dreadnoughts (which they did) until the Caldari were defeated. A reasonable analysis of this situation would be that this was a tactical error, combined with connivance from CONCORD on behalf of the Gallente, leading to a tactical Caldari defeat.

But a tactical defeat that did not end in the loss of the planet, or in the loss of a significant portion of Caldari naval power. One titan hurts, yes, but as we all know, the navies of the Empires possess many, many titans. Moreover, when the Caldari navy has contested space against the Gallente in the past, such as in the invasion of Caldari Prime, the result has been an overwhelming victory. And this is not even bringing in objective military experts who still agree that the Caldari Navy is the superior military force.

4. Selling products is placing oneself in bondage to another nation.
I have no idea why you would believe this. Historically and academically, being an exporter and strong trader is considered a sign of national strength and power. Indeed, the Gallente Federation is also known to be a strong exporter of certain goods, especially entertainment (as you should know). Does the fact that the Caldari love watching CPD Blue make the Gallente Federation a plaything of the Caldari? I somehow doubt that, and you apparently do as well. Does the fact that NOH produces several shows syndicated in the Federation mean that the Caldari State is the vassal of the Federation? Apparently, in your view. But you can't have your double standard and eat it, too, especially when almost all economists disagree with you.

The Caldari trade with whoever they can because trade makes a country stronger and more independent, not less. It's almost certainly true that the Khanid Kingdom could not survive without the Caldari State at this point. But, for us, that's wonderful. And for the Khanid, it's "so what?" They have no reason to want us gone, they profit from our goods, and this relationship makes us friendly towards each other. It's win-win.

But that's not the case with other nations. The Federation still holds to the belief that the Caldari State must be re-absorbed, or, for the more moderate, democratized to a Gallente style system, by force if necessary. The Amarr wish to convert everyone. And the Minmatar appear to believe that the lives and customs of others are completely irrelevant if some good can be obtained for a Minmatar. The last is, perhaps, least objectionable, save that such is also the Caldari view (for Caldari, of course), and conflict is thus inevitable at times.

Reabsorbing the Caldari State has not been part of the Federation's foreign policy for almost a century. People must understand that there is no permanency to a democracy's agenda.

You have some misunderstandings regarding the needs of the Kingdom.

Khanid II, magnificent Brother that he is, needed no help beating back the Imperial Navy all by himself.

During the last few hundred years of 'cold war' between the Empire and Kingdom the State was certainly helpful in providing alternative technology and assisting with deterrents against the Empire's repeated border incursions.

Of course nowadays Khanid has retaken a rightful Privy Council seat and the Kingdom and Empire have never been closer (for good or ill).... so the old mathematics for how needed or influential the State was with the Kingdom have changed quite a bit.

I'll have him kneel to me one day of course, but I certainly have always been in love with his sheer force of will.

Note that I could not properly quote everything due to character restraints on this board. However I can assure that everything I felt the need to address was well, addressed.



I'm no expert on how Heth's early policies, however I do know they were extremely nationalistic to the point that the growing trade and cooperation between the State and the Federation was almost completely shot down as soon as he took power. He fanned the flames of the Malkalen incident and ruined a hundred years of peace between our nations.

Heth was not disposed of quickly and with little violence. He had protesters shot and the riots that sprung up after that continued for days, possibly even weeks though heavy censorship will prevent us from knowing for sure. All this before Caldari Prime and the rest of his downfall.




I wouldn't say the Amarr and Caldari are allies of trade and convenience but rather necessity. If anything were to escalate between the Federation and the State, the Federation and Republic would almost certainly begin an embargo. The same could be said if anything were to escalate between the Empire and the Republic. Economically and strategically speaking, the Caldari and Amarr are forced to rely on each other for support, whether they want to or not (which has fluctuated over time). While you are in a lovely circular trade set up with the Amarr, I feel that it favors them. Without the foodstuffs the State would have trouble growing it's population. Without the raw materials producing the machines and technology you export would be a challenge.

Perhaps it is an exaggeration to the Caldari are the playthings of the Amarr. However, it is very clear that the Amarr influence Caldari a lot more than Caldari influence them. The number of State citizens embracing the Amarr religion has been growing, and I highly doubt the Way of the Winds is being adopted by citizens of the Empire. If the State is already beginning to absorb Amarrian religion, how much longer until they absorb other aspects of Amarr culture and maybe even government? This may sound like slippery slope nonsense, but it has been done before, by the Federation. Before we fully annexed other civilizations, Gallente culture was always the first to be adopted enmasse.




I suppose you have a fair argument here. Probably the biggest blunder was Heth's order to move the fleet into low orbit, which made it extremely easy for the Federation to attack. So we are at a partial agreement Part of why I believe the Federation Navy to be superior at the moment (or at the very least, equal to the State's military strength) is because we have corrected most, if not all of the mistakes that caused us to get steamrolled by the State earlier on, mainly being infiltration and State sympathizers sabotaging our defense networks from the inside. While I feel the Black Eagles horribly violate the rights of many Federation citizens, putting everyone in the government under scrutiny, possibly even as high up as the president, ensures that such a thing never happens again.



You are correct, being an exporter is a great benefit to a nation. However, as with anything, you can't do it too much. Unfortunately, I feel the State is doing just that, over exporting. For such a nationalistic nation with powerful enemies and potential rivals, this exporting causes the State to rely on trade with other nations to keep growing.

For example lets say that a major trade partner of the State, say the Amarr, suffer a depression for one reason or another. What this means is that ultimately, the State's economy is damaged by this depression too. Of course the State has plenty of internal trade right? Well, yes and no. The many corporations in the State are always at odds with each other, limiting the domestic trade that takes place. It's this very thing that forces the State to trade with other nations as much as possible.

You could argue that the same calamity could befall upon another nation. Let's take this Amarr depression scenario and look at their second largest trade partner, the Federation. While the Federation would certainly be hurt by this situation, there are plenty of other markets at home and abroad to keep things going. Replace the Amarr with any other situation for both countries and the results would most likely be the same. Exporting is great, but you can't rely on it.

Mr. "Fred"

Since you largely agree with my third point, I'll drop it. Let us continue to discuss 1, 2, and 4.

1. Heth
I'm certainly no fan of Heth. But consider the fact that I said "relatively". Jamyl Sarum killed hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, in her return. Luc Duvalier killed millions, perhaps even billions, before he fell. Heth? Well, yes, Heth retook Home, but trust me when I say that we planned to do that eventually anyway. That some thousands of Caldari fell before Heth did is regrettable, yes, but far less than one might have expected. And here is what is important: the State endured.

As for the growing trade and cooperation, apparently you have not read the news articles from before the war. The Federation was performing such actions as sending contingents of Federation marines over the border to occupy Caldari stations under the guise of "aid missions" - a ruse that was discovered when the convoy was attacked by capsuleers. Gallente corporations which exported their products to the State were subsidized in order to try to drive the State towards bankruptcy ((TEA)). Other news articles by the Scope uncover Gallente ultra-nationalists trying to assassinate Caldari sports heroes, in operations probably funded by Roden Industries. And, lastly, there's much evidence for the assertion that the Gallente were supplying and transporting armed terrorist cells into Caldari Space.

Do you really think that we just up and decided to hate you one day? Do you really think that we just "hate you for your freedom", or "are afraid of your culture"? No. Don't be so naive. This goes far deeper, to your government's continual insistence that the Caldari State, even today, is only a collection of rebellious colonies who will eventually be, shall we say, reclaimed.


2. The Amarr.
First, I'd like to know where you are getting this information about the Amarrian religion spreading through the State. Scope News reports tend to portray a State demonstrating a return to original Caldari values, a process that began with Heth and continues after - indeed, is a large part of - his downfall. This seems to be essentially an evidence-less claim by you. A recent article on Gal-Net, Demographics of the Caldari State, repeats my claim: specifically, that the Caldari, while usually tolerant of other ethnicities, are extremely intolerant of non-Caldari cultural practices.

You may be somewhat confused, of course, by the fact that ethnic Intaki and Khanid tend to be exceptions to this rule - the Khanid, because of our close relationship to the Kingdom, are not looked down upon for practicing their religion in private, while the Intaki, composing perhaps 0.5%-1% of our total population, often possess their own enclaves, although most are assimilated into Caldari culture, where they strengthen us. We owe the Intaki, they being the only Federation demographic to seek to understand us during the secession. We have usually treated them well, by Caldari standards, but I do sometimes worry that we have not treated them well enough by Intaki standards. Nonetheless, many of them continue to immigrate to the State and live here, so perhaps there's something to be said in that.

That said, you seem to miss a few things in your understanding of the State. The State has massive tracts of land that could be used for agriculture, and being the smallest empire in terms of population, we would have no trouble easily feeding ourselves. The question is, why should we do so, when we can use our workforce to make more profit by exercising it in more industrial capacities?

Nor do we desire to export our culture, something which the Federation does not seem to understand. We co-exist, not conquer. An Amarrian who decided to convert to the Way of the Winds, or another Caldari belief system, would not be viewed by I and my fellow Caldari as a "convert" so much as a curiosity. Why would an Amarrian want to convert? If he wishes to be a Caldari, he can immigrate to the State. Otherwise, what's the point of adopting our culture, or our beliefs?

What we want is to have our beliefs over here, yours over there, and if any of you want to have our beliefs, you can come over here and be a part of us, if you truly are willing to be one of us.

3. Exporting
While it is true that the Empire is the largest trade partner of the State, I in no way intended to give the impression that it was the only trade partner of the State. If one examines station placement alone, it should be very obvious that the State conducts a massive amount of trade with the Republic, and some with the Federation, even with the war. Also, this goes both ways: do you really believe that the Federation is better off not trading with the State, Empire, and Kingdom?

That aside, the State also has a great deal of internal trade, since the Megacorporations cannot create a vertical production line for every product. Lai Dai cannot build every component of a warship - it needs parts from Ishukone, Wiyrkomi, and others. This is true for most complex products. The leaders of the Caldari Megas are not foolish - comparative advantage is understood.

Moreover, it should be noted that the State is also known for being willing to trade with some cartels and less-than-legal organizations, especially the Angel Cartel, which usually keeps out of State territory. This provides additional markets and flexibility to the State's economy which is denied to other nations.

Regarding the fall of Heth, that's a bit of an apologist approach, but you do have a point, the State Endured and with no long term political, economic, or social strife that I can see being a possibility so you've convinced me on that.

Forgive me for my ambiguity over trade and cooperation but I was referring to before the Malkalen Incident or"Malkalen Attack as I've heard some more nationalistic folks call it. The whole reason numerous Federation officials were in Malkalen that dark day was solely for the purpose of creating a new trade agreement with Ishukone, that would open up more trade to the State unrivaled since the Gallente-Caldari war. Once that mess happened, tensions began to rise once more between our two countries.

Please refrain from using quotation marks in such a matter as it could be interpreted as something I said or believe, which I do not. I can understand why the Caldari are hostile towards us and I wholeheartedly disagree with many members of government who believe the State should be reclaimed. While I believe the State should embrace (or reembrace) many of the Federation ideals they threw away when they separated from us, they should remain their own independent nation with a unique national identity. However, the Caldari often fail to understand why we are hostile towards them. It would be foolish to believe that all this conflict is solely because one nation was an aggressor (that's part of why the conflict began in the first place). Hell, we had to create something akin to the Amarr Inquisition just to keep all the spies and traitors the State has littered our country with. I'm surprised a terrorist plot hasn't been unveiled, especially when Heth was in control.



I do recall reading something regarding the spread of the Amarrian faith in the State quite a long time ago, yet I've had trouble finding it. I may have misread the Galnet page or it could of been removed for inaccuracy. Until I can find it (assuming it still exist or existed in the first place) I will have heed the floor to you and say you proved me wrong. And I think we can agree that the Intaki and Khanid are treated properly in the State. However, keep in mind that most Intaki still prefer life in the Federation. Despite the qualms the Federation have had with the Intaki over the years, the fact that our unity remains is something to be attested to. Remember, our last President was an Intaki.

Exactly, you could feed yourselves, but you chose not too (for obvious and admittedly good reasons). You certainly possess the capacity to do so but keep in mind that it's hard to convert a planet dedicated to manufacturing into a planet that centers around agriculture. You could easily make the switch in a year or so, maybe even less however if you needed to do so in a pinch, then problems occur. The State lacks balance within their own production, and a slight nudge is all it would take to cause it to tip over.

I must apologize again if I was being ambiguous. The statement regarding Amarrians converting to the Way of the Winds was purely a rhetorical and used to reaffirm my previous (though invalid until further notice) point.




No, I do not believe the Federation would be better off not trading with the State, Empire, Kingdom, or Republic. However, if we were forced to cease trade with one or more of those entities, we would not suffer as much if the State were to, simply because we are not as reliant on trade with these nations as the State is. The Federation maintains a healthy balance of imports, exports, and domestic trade. The State leans too heavily on exports, if that collapses I doubt that they would be able to hold it together. Then again, I've been wrong before.

You are correct, there is a great deal of internal trade, yet the imbalance between domestic and international trade could make things difficult if the international market suffers. Especially considering that the mega corps aren't exactly all on good terms with each other right now. They all stick to their corporate blocs and are rather aggresive towards the other blocs.

While I would imagine deals with criminal organizations would be profitable, I doubt they would be able to compensate for a decline in trade with other nations.

You say Ethan Veron is a true friend Stitcher. What he is, is a viscious crimelord. Boss of the Veto crime syndicate, and a Gurista mercenary cell. I am staggered you would call Ethan Veron true friend.

Ethan Veron is a kidnapper,extortionist,hijacker,drug smuggler,unlicensed arms trader,murderer, has brought untold pain and misery upon thousands of citizens throughout New Eden. An enemy of the Caldari State these things he is.

Ethan Veron stands for everything you speak out against, corruption, murder, the pain and misery of citizens. If you say Ethan Veron is a true friend you are a hypocrite Stitcher. If you say Ethan veron is a true friend you are an enemy to all the nations of New Eden.

Ethan Veron is a criminal who should be hunted down arrested brought before a court of law to be judged for his crimes. He is no friend of the law abiding citizens of New Eden.

Verone was, is, and will always be, one of my closest friends.

Oh, dear. I hope that doesn't ruin people's opinion of me...

Not really, no. Doesn't matter how you spin it, the Guristas are a criminal organisation, and as someone who formerly worked for the Cartel, and have in the past worked with a number of Guristas-aligned pilots, it's pretty cut and dried that nobody was under any illusions that what they did was illegal.

So unless you actually have a point you'd like to make instead of trying to sound clever...

For the record, Mr Shutaq has a point. An ironic point, given his own past activities, but a point nonetheless. There's no law saying that you cannot have friendship with a criminal or a psychopath. Just make sure you do so knowing who you are dealing with.

Because they all have a little check box for religion on their personnel files. Wayist and Other. None of them are ticked 'Other'. I'm also aware of the movements of my crew and marines and none of them visit Amarrian Faith ministries in their down time.