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FW: The War Zone Is Too Big
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cearaen
Plus 10 NV
#41 - 2013-08-16 16:16:46 UTC  |  Edited by: cearaen
Bienator II wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
@OP thats actually how planetside 2 fixed the "contesting" chaos and tried to create more battles through bottlenecks

but i am skeptical that it will change anything on the fact that most of the plexing is done with non combat alts. The plexing mechanic itself is still one of the main problems since alts can make progress while running away. Without some form of timer resets there is no incentive to stay and fight, which makes it more efficient to run and contest the next best neighboring system just to come back and finish your job when the combat pilot already left. If you can't hold the line in a plex you should not be able to influence sov - its war after all.


it does not matter if it is alt or not, it is paid account (at least in theory) so no matter who uses time to be in plex.

it does matter. Since only one of both is content. CCP isn't stupid, they know their sandbox. For the same reason they are slowly fixing OGBs since 0 risk boosting is no game content too. Its just an alt in safety. .


I wish I could believe, but the evidence to the contrary is too overwhelming. It will remain an alt in safety. Practically unprobable link ships in safe spots or right next to a pos is no change really.


Bienator II wrote:

Conflict is a main part of all the interaction in eve and plexing is basically conflict avoidance if you want to be efficient (doesn't matter if you are after lp or sov).

why are there timers in the first place? Why can't you just scan a plex down, press a button and receive LP, first come frist served? Exactly... to create conflict, combat, wrecks - its the reason why you are forced to stay in space for all the time but it doesn't work and people got used to it that it doesn't work so they farm.



CCP knew all this before inferno. Yet they did pretty much nothing (other than tone down the npcs) to make plexing more pvp.


Arguablly they went backward. The caldari had more kills per vp when they took over all the systems than the gallente did.

Is it coincidence that the pvp centered mechanics of timer rollbacks and better intel tools re plexing got shelved in favor of lp changes?
cearaen
Plus 10 NV
#42 - 2013-08-16 16:26:38 UTC
Andre Vauban wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
@OP thats actually how planetside 2 fixed the "contesting" chaos and tried to create more battles through bottlenecks

but i am skeptical that it will change anything on the fact that most of the plexing is done with non combat alts. The plexing mechanic itself is still one of the main problems since alts can make progress while running away. Without some form of timer resets there is no incentive to stay and fight, which makes it more efficient to run and contest the next best neighboring system just to come back and finish your job when the combat pilot already left. If you can't hold the line in a plex you should not be able to influence sov - its war after all.


it does not matter if it is alt or not, it is paid account (at least in theory) so no matter who uses time to be in plex.

it does matter. Since only one of both is content. CCP isn't stupid, they know their sandbox. For the same reason they are slowly fixing OGBs since 0 risk boosting is no game content too. Its just an alt in safety. Conflict is a main part of all the interaction in eve and plexing is basically conflict avoidance if you want to be efficient (doesn't matter if you are after lp or sov).

why are there timers in the first place? Why can't you just scan a plex down, press a button and receive LP, first come frist served? Exactly... to create conflict, combat, wrecks - its the reason why you are forced to stay in space for all the time but it doesn't work and people got used to it that it doesn't work so they farm.


The only thing "broken" with FW is that undefended systems that nobody lives in can be easily plexed to vulnerable by plex farmers since they win the pvp fight by default as nobody shows up to fight them. Nobody shows up to fight them because there is no point (ie the would be attacker doesn't care enough to actually defend the system and they won't get a fight). I think the proposed fix (timer roll back) will almost entirely fix the glitch..



I don't think it will be enough.

But it certainly won't fix the glitch until it is implemented. It will not be implemented until someone/team is assigned to implement it. It won't get assigned a team or person to implenent it until someone at ccp acknowledges the broken nature of fw sov and decides to care.

Do you see how far we are?

Andre Vauban wrote:

Plex Mechanics w/ Timer Rollback:
-If only one side is within 30km of button, timer ticks to completion.
-If both sides are within 30km of button, timer stops
-If only one side is on the plex grid (non-cloaked) and timer has excess time on it, it instantly resets to neutral and begins ticking down from the neutral value.



Some form of timer rollback is needed this may just lead to the side with the biggest blob running through systems and effectively destroying everyones plexing work. IMO FW should be a mechanic where the side with fewer pilots can force the enemy to split up their blob.

But there are plenty of options. CCP should have implemented this idea with inferno and should have been tweaking it thoughout the following expansions. But it's not too late to start.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#43 - 2013-08-16 16:53:10 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
cearaen wrote:
The caldari had more kills per vp when they took over all the systems than the gallente did.

The ratio was higher because nobody ran plexes. There are many more kills / day in REAL pvp engagements in FW low sec now than there have ever been - by a large margin.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#44 - 2013-08-16 16:56:20 UTC
cearaen wrote:
IMO FW should be a mechanic where the side with fewer pilots can force the enemy to split up their blob.
You can't force anybody in Eve to do anything.
cearaen
Plus 10 NV
#45 - 2013-08-16 17:17:29 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
cearaen wrote:
The caldari had more kills per vp when they took over all the systems than the gallente did.

The ratio was higher because nobody ran plexes. There are many more kills / day in REAL pvp engagements in FW low sec now than there have ever been - by a large margin.



Maybe. But when you seperate it from the ratio of vp it loses its significance to whether fw sov is actually a pvp or pve game.

Sure more people are in plexes and low sec in general thanks to lp in plexes and ending gcc. More people = more kills.

But it seems the percent of people in plexes that will run away if anyone comes in for a fight is much higher than it ever was. If true this means fw sov is more of a pve game than ever.

X Gallentius wrote:
cearaen wrote:
IMO FW should be a mechanic where the side with fewer pilots can force the enemy to split up their blob.
You can't force anybody in Eve to do anything.



Ok add "or lose the sov war" to the end of my sentence. Roll

CCP can give consequences for behavior. Those consequences tends to strongly encourage or discourage behavior. Refusing to acknowledge that and simply stating "You can't force anybody in Eve to do anything" is a defeatist attitude that will never lead to improving the game.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#46 - 2013-08-16 18:37:01 UTC
cearaen wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
cearaen wrote:
The caldari had more kills per vp when they took over all the systems than the gallente did.

The ratio was higher because nobody ran plexes. There are many more kills / day in REAL pvp engagements in FW low sec now than there have ever been - by a large margin.



Maybe. But when you seperate it from the ratio of vp it loses its significance to whether fw sov is actually a pvp or pve game.


No "maybe" about it, it's true.
Quote:


Ok add "or lose the sov war" to the end of my sentence. Roll

CCP can give consequences for behavior. Those consequences tends to strongly encourage or discourage behavior. Refusing to acknowledge that and simply stating "You can't force anybody in Eve to do anything" is a defeatist attitude that will never lead to improving the game.


That's exactly what happens. If blob stays blobbed up in only a few systems, they lose sov in the hinterlands.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#47 - 2013-08-16 21:00:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
cearaen wrote:
[

Some form of timer rollback is needed this may just lead to the side with the biggest blob running through systems and effectively destroying everyones plexing work. IMO FW should be a mechanic where the side with fewer pilots can force the enemy to split up their blob.

thats a possible outcome, but you have to ask yourself:
- is is realistic to maintain fleet motivation to create blobs to scare away plexers who are now willing to fight but they don't because the blob is to big? Fleets without kills is pretty much the worst case scenario for everybody.

- and is is worse to defend your systems with pvp fleets compared to the current alternative where you are forced to use trial accounts, the more the better

not to mention that there are at least 3 versions of timer reset: reset, quick decontest to default (requires player on beacon) and automatic but slow decontest to default state. All reset versions only decontest till default state, they never decontest the system.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
cearaen
Plus 10 NV
#48 - 2013-08-16 21:32:13 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
cearaen wrote:
[

Some form of timer rollback is needed this may just lead to the side with the biggest blob running through systems and effectively destroying everyones plexing work. IMO FW should be a mechanic where the side with fewer pilots can force the enemy to split up their blob.

thats a possible outcome, but you have to ask yourself:
- is is realistic to maintain fleet motivation to create blobs to scare away plexers who are now willing to fight but they don't because the blob is to big? Fleets without kills is pretty much the worst case scenario for everybody.


- and is is worse to defend your systems with pvp fleets compared to the current alternative where you are forced to use trial accounts, the more the better

not to mention that there are at least 3 versions of timer reset: reset, quick decontest to default (requires player on beacon) and automatic but slow decontest to default state. All reset versions only decontest till default state, they never decontest the system.




I admit I am not sure whether a quick reset would be better. As a neutral in fw space I would definitely benefit from having more fights if there were an auto reset.

Would fw players often form blobs to defeat the purpose of those who formed smaller plexing gangs? I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Give players real time plexing intel combined with some form of a rollback (to be tweaked over time) and being good at pvp would actually be helpful when it comes to winning fw sov.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#49 - 2013-08-16 22:27:43 UTC
cearaen wrote:

Would fw players often form blobs to defeat the purpose of those who formed smaller plexing gangs? I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me.

don't forget that the amarr-min warzone has at least 70 systems and the gal-cal almost 100. There will be always low traffic systems left where fleets won't roam. No blob will cycle through them 24/7 - there will be always space where you are alone or could get your small fights. Not to mention that you would require a blob who could fight in all three plex sizes.

Without any kind of incentive to stay in a plex and fight the system remains broken at the very foundation.

(i would even donate LP at the plex beacon to reset the timer, X LP per minute)

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Zen Guerrilla
CTRL-Q
Ushra'Khan
#50 - 2013-08-17 08:19:15 UTC
Lucius Regall wrote:
You can only contest systems if they are adjacent to a system your faction controls.

I always thought this was exactly the way it should be. Systems need to be connected. It would form actual frontlines and as a sideeffect would keep the farmers at bay.

You should still be able to run and contest backwater systems, but only to a certain limit and for reduced LP payouts.

pew pew
Philpip
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
#51 - 2013-08-17 09:40:06 UTC
I know it has probably already been said but I'm still of the opinion that plexes shouldn't give LP.

If you want LP, run missions or kill wartargets.

And as a side note, can people stop moaning about f*!king blobs, what the hell is the point of the whole Corporation, Alliance and Faction if not to get people to fly together!

While you're at it, remove the 'Fleet' option from the game.

No, you were not blobbed, you just didn't bring enough people to the fight!
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#52 - 2013-08-17 16:26:35 UTC
Philpip wrote:
I know it has probably already been said but I'm still of the opinion that plexes shouldn't give LP.
pvp'ers wouldn't be able to stay fighting 23/7. They'd have to spend more of their time farming. That means less pew.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#53 - 2013-08-17 16:32:13 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Zen Guerrilla wrote:
Lucius Regall wrote:
You can only contest systems if they are adjacent to a system your faction controls.

I always thought this was exactly the way it should be. Systems need to be connected. It would form actual frontlines and as a sideeffect would keep the farmers at bay.

You should still be able to run and contest backwater systems, but only to a certain limit and for reduced LP payouts.

Instead of "frontlines", there could be some "texture" to the map. Add Sov point multipliers and LP point multipliers. Something like:

Mlitia Station Systems (2.0) > Station Systems (1.0) > Non-station Systems (0.5)
cearaen
Plus 10 NV
#54 - 2013-08-17 19:16:25 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
cearaen wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
cearaen wrote:
The caldari had more kills per vp when they took over all the systems than the gallente did.

The ratio was higher because nobody ran plexes. There are many more kills / day in REAL pvp engagements in FW low sec now than there have ever been - by a large margin.



Maybe. But when you seperate it from the ratio of vp it loses its significance to whether fw sov is actually a pvp or pve game.


No "maybe" about it, it's true.



I see you are still cutting out my posts and not addressing the reasoning I give. Yes, whatever, it may be true but its still irrelevant.


Quote:


Ok add "or lose the sov war" to the end of my sentence. Roll

CCP can give consequences for behavior. Those consequences tends to strongly encourage or discourage behavior. Refusing to acknowledge that and simply stating "You can't force anybody in Eve to do anything" is a defeatist attitude that will never lead to improving the game.


That's exactly what happens. If blob stays blobbed up in only a few systems, they lose sov in the hinterlands.[/quote]


No one cares about sov in 90% of systems because sov is a moronic pve mechanic. XG you susan black can keep the rose colored glasses on and think there is nothing wrong with stabs being the main module used by plexers.

http://www.gamerchick.net/2013/08/confessions-of-stabbed-farmer.html


But as each month passes more players realize that the fw sov mechanics promote rabbit plexing.


Decreasing the size of the war zone would help in this regard but it also promotes null sec blobbery. There are other, better, options and ccp has even expressed an interest in pursuing those options. But they were shelved and ccp moved away from fw. Players need to support eachother in getting ccp to take those options off the shelf. We should not try to live in a fantasy land thinking fw sov is fine.
cearaen
Plus 10 NV
#55 - 2013-08-17 19:28:52 UTC
Andre Vauban wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
@OP thats actually how planetside 2 fixed the "contesting" chaos and tried to create more battles through bottlenecks

but i am skeptical that it will change anything on the fact that most of the plexing is done with non combat alts. The plexing mechanic itself is still one of the main problems since alts can make progress while running away. Without some form of timer resets there is no incentive to stay and fight, which makes it more efficient to run and contest the next best neighboring system just to come back and finish your job when the combat pilot already left. If you can't hold the line in a plex you should not be able to influence sov - its war after all.


it does not matter if it is alt or not, it is paid account (at least in theory) so no matter who uses time to be in plex.

it does matter. Since only one of both is content. CCP isn't stupid, they know their sandbox. For the same reason they are slowly fixing OGBs since 0 risk boosting is no game content too. Its just an alt in safety. Conflict is a main part of all the interaction in eve and plexing is basically conflict avoidance if you want to be efficient (doesn't matter if you are after lp or sov).

why are there timers in the first place? Why can't you just scan a plex down, press a button and receive LP, first come frist served? Exactly... to create conflict, combat, wrecks - its the reason why you are forced to stay in space for all the time but it doesn't work and people got used to it that it doesn't work so they farm.


The only thing "broken" with FW is that undefended systems that nobody lives in can be easily plexed to vulnerable by plex farmers since they win the pvp fight by default as nobody shows up to fight them. Nobody shows up to fight them because there is no point (ie the would be attacker doesn't care enough to actually defend the system and they won't get a fight). I think the proposed fix (timer roll back) will almost entirely fix the glitch...



I don't think that is the only problem. Even where people live an enemy can run several plexes with no fight. Why? Because after the enemy leaves the defender can just set an alt in an atron and dplex.

Why will work for the defender? Because the enemy that can't even dock in the system won't even know the alt is in the plex unduing the work they did.

Plexes need to be treated like, well, military complexes. When they are attacked there should be the opportunity to muster some response. Now its only after several dozen plexes have been taken that anyone in the militia can bother doing something. And since the vast majority of the enemy militia will not even be aware you will be trying to undue the damage done, you will likely be plexing all alone without a fight. Why bother? This cycle repeats.

Letting players know where the plexes are being taken is the first step to having them fight for them.

X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#56 - 2013-08-18 06:17:08 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
cearaen wrote:

X Gallentius wrote:

That's exactly what happens. If blob stays blobbed up in only a few systems, they lose sov in the hinterlands.


No one cares about sov in 90% of systems because sov is a moronic pve mechanic. XG you susan black can keep the rose colored glasses on and think there is nothing wrong with stabs being the main module used by plexers.

http://www.gamerchick.net/2013/08/confessions-of-stabbed-farmer.html

But as each month passes more players realize that the fw sov mechanics promote rabbit plexing.

Decreasing the size of the war zone would help in this regard but it also promotes null sec blobbery. There are other, better, options and ccp has even expressed an interest in pursuing those options. But they were shelved and ccp moved away from fw. Players need to support eachother in getting ccp to take those options off the shelf. We should not try to live in a fantasy land thinking fw sov is fine.

Hey, I just thought of something. Why don't we have a notification system to make the FW sov warfare a pvp mechanic instead of a pve mechanic?

But in any case, thanks for using a blog by Susan Black to validate MY opinion on plexing alts (even though our opinions are not the same).
Irsam Samri
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#57 - 2013-08-18 16:48:45 UTC
Hey, after reading this thread I have a few points to put forward.
First of all, blobs of ships are clunky and NO ONE would roll around in a blob chasing down and resetting plexes if the timer mechanics were changed. They would get no kills and nothing out of it. On the other hand, it would benefit small groups, I think you would see a huge increase in small gangs.
I've ran plexes on 4 accounts simultaneously with warp stabs and made 75mil an hour per account with no risk, this sucks that anyone can do this, including myself. Literally if someone shows up you just warp your ship to a safe and wait for them to leave nd you go back because they have no way to time down the plex faster than you can just capture anothe

Reduction in fw size and changes to the timer mechanic would make it fun to pvp and disrupt other people. Its to the point of boring arm and I wonder why I am subscribing :(
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#58 - 2013-08-18 16:57:39 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
@OP thats actually how planetside 2 fixed the "contesting" chaos and tried to create more battles through bottlenecks

but i am skeptical that it will change anything on the fact that most of the plexing is done with non combat alts. The plexing mechanic itself is still one of the main problems since alts can make progress while running away. Without some form of timer resets there is no incentive to stay and fight, which makes it more efficient to run and contest the next best neighboring system just to come back and finish your job when the combat pilot already left. If you can't hold the line in a plex you should not be able to influence sov - its war after all.


it does not matter if it is alt or not, it is paid account (at least in theory) so no matter who uses time to be in plex.

it does matter. Since only one of both is content. CCP isn't stupid, they know their sandbox. For the same reason they are slowly fixing OGBs since 0 risk boosting is no game content too. Its just an alt in safety. Conflict is a main part of all the interaction in eve and plexing is basically conflict avoidance if you want to be efficient (doesn't matter if you are after lp or sov).

why are there timers in the first place? Why can't you just scan a plex down, press a button and receive LP, first come frist served? Exactly... to create conflict, combat, wrecks - its the reason why you are forced to stay in space for all the time but it doesn't work and people got used to it that it doesn't work so they farm.


Your vision about good FW pvp content is that everyone who enter plex should stay there and die when YOU want to kill them, but you are not willing to stay in plex and wait that someone who manage to kill you comes in. So you are as faulty player than those farmers who you blaim.

Idea is to take so many plexes and systems that enemy comes and kills you continously in plex, but as you have said you are not interested about FW, you just want easy pvp.
Irsam Samri
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#59 - 2013-08-18 17:07:52 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
@OP thats actually how planetside 2 fixed the "contesting" chaos and tried to create more battles through bottlenecks

but i am skeptical that it will change anything on the fact that most of the plexing is done with non combat alts. The plexing mechanic itself is still one of the main problems since alts can make progress while running away. Without some form of timer resets there is no incentive to stay and fight, which makes it more efficient to run and contest the next best neighboring system just to come back and finish your job when the combat pilot already left. If you can't hold the line in a plex you should not be able to influence sov - its war after all.


it does not matter if it is alt or not, it is paid account (at least in theory) so no matter who uses time to be in plex.

it does matter. Since only one of both is content. CCP isn't stupid, they know their sandbox. For the same reason they are slowly fixing OGBs since 0 risk boosting is no game content too. Its just an alt in safety. Conflict is a main part of all the interaction in eve and plexing is basically conflict avoidance if you want to be efficient (doesn't matter if you are after lp or sov).

why are there timers in the first place? Why can't you just scan a plex down, press a button and receive LP, first come frist served? Exactly... to create conflict, combat, wrecks - its the reason why you are forced to stay in space for all the time but it doesn't work and people got used to it that it doesn't work so they farm.


Your vision about good FW pvp content is that everyone who enter plex should stay there and die when YOU want to kill them, but you are not willing to stay in plex and wait that someone who manage to kill you comes in. So you are as faulty player than those farmers who you blaim.

Idea is to take so many plexes and systems that enemy comes and kills you continously in plex, but as you have said you are not interested about FW, you just want easy pvp.


Umm.. Faction warfare is pvp? Why wouldn't we want easy pvp?
You can still leave the plex.. You'll just lose out if you don't want to contest it. You have a really poor attitude and you are attacking someone for wanting pvp over no risk farming... I feel like you've already lost your arguement by attacking pvp
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#60 - 2013-08-18 17:10:15 UTC
Irsam Samri wrote:
Hey, after reading this thread I have a few points to put forward.
First of all, blobs of ships are clunky and NO ONE would roll around in a blob chasing down and resetting plexes if the timer mechanics were changed. They would get no kills and nothing out of it. On the other hand, it would benefit small groups, I think you would see a huge increase in small gangs.
I've ran plexes on 4 accounts simultaneously with warp stabs and made 75mil an hour per account with no risk, this sucks that anyone can do this, including myself. Literally if someone shows up you just warp your ship to a safe and wait for them to leave nd you go back because they have no way to time down the plex faster than you can just capture anothe

Reduction in fw size and changes to the timer mechanic would make it fun to pvp and disrupt other people. Its to the point of boring arm and I wonder why I am subscribing :(


thanks for commenting from the other side's point of view. This has probably more weight as a comment form a pvp pilot since you don't see it very often.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value