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Warfare & Tactics

 
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FW: The War Zone Is Too Big

Author
Seraph Castillon
In Control
Neon Nightmares
#21 - 2013-08-14 12:24:07 UTC
HankMurphy wrote:
This is huge and goes back to what many of us would see as a missing mechanic to recognize system weight with system activity.


The problem is that area's of concentrated activity do not always coincide with systems that can be objectively measured as good in quality.

Just look at the Dotlan map for killboard activity in the Gallente-Caldari war zone. Area's of activity are clearly concentrated around home systems. However the location of those home systems seems to often be chosen arbitrarily or for reasons that may have made sense at some point in time (war zone borders) but no longer do. This means fighting occurs where the players have (indirectly) decided to make it occur. Player driven game mechanics is what CCP want.

Moons, systems security status, system location (high sec adjacency, trade hub accessibility, connection to the rest of the war zone), LP store, FW agents, other agents, ... If you would base system weight off of these and other objectively measurable parameters you would end up with very different home or core systems than we have now.

Machiavelli's Nemesis wrote:
It would be hilarious, the mass slaughter of unskilled spy alts being used to exploit the mechanic (or leet pvp as the amarr call it) would cause me no end of giggles


This is the very reason why there will be no player driven system weights unless someone comes up with a genius idea that can't be exploited.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-08-14 12:58:20 UTC
Lucius Regall wrote:
CCP phasing systems in and out of the war zone based upon their activity level is another good idea. The remote farming systems would be phased out and active systems like Egghelende would be phased in.


LOL they are active because of not being in FW

Believe it or not, people dont like to move all their stuff from low sec base to another and do it with targets everywhere who know your going to move.

Mess with this and you will end up with a lot of pirates and no pvp FWers

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.

Tetsuo Tsukaya
Perkone
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-08-14 15:55:41 UTC
Eh, we just abandoned our home system because the Chinese Caldari farming pressure became too much for a 34 person corp to deplex and still have fun but I'd still rather have held a home system and get fights one warp from undock than hide in a non FW low sec because of a lack of confidence in being able to defend the system.

If all Amarr hid away in Egg, there'd be no way to force fights with plexing pressure, and then you guys would cry that there's no content in FW
JAF Anders
Adenosine Inhibition
#24 - 2013-08-14 16:29:34 UTC
Tetsuo Tsukaya wrote:


If all Amarr hid away in Egg, there'd be no way to force fights with plexing pressure, and then you guys would cry that there's no content in FW


We found plenty of fights just fine before docking rights. Hell, we found fights after we took all the systems anyway. Plexing is a driver for the solo / small-gang fights low-sec is known for, sure, but it's not exclusive.

The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts.

Logical Chaos
Very Italian People
The Initiative.
#25 - 2013-08-14 20:18:21 UTC
Lucius Regall wrote:


You can only contest systems if they are adjacent to a system your faction controls.

If that is too radical

You can only contest systems to above 50% if they are adjacent to a system your faction controls.


I like the idea but you know what the outcome will be, right? Blobs!
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Snuffed Out
#26 - 2013-08-14 21:48:22 UTC
Pannax Ni wrote:
Quote:
I fully agree, it makes no sense to have so many systems with no "front" or area of concentrated conflict.

This is EVE, you make your own areas of concentrated conflict. YOU decide where and who to fight.
Go siege a system, go out there and take the fight you want.
This suggestion seems kinda "meh" to me.


You can have up to something like 8-10 (or whatever) different "front" systems. I just dislike having 70+ systems, all of which can be plexed / captured....spreads out fighting and leads to overall weirdness.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Snuffed Out
#27 - 2013-08-14 21:50:20 UTC
Logical Chaos wrote:
Lucius Regall wrote:


You can only contest systems if they are adjacent to a system your faction controls.

If that is too radical

You can only contest systems to above 50% if they are adjacent to a system your faction controls.


I like the idea but you know what the outcome will be, right? Blobs!



I highly doubt you would see enough blobs to cover every adjacent system. I hate the blob too, but there should be more concentration. It would make the warfare more tactical, especially knowing exactly which systems are being invaded and how to react appropriately. Imagine how many more fights there would be.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#28 - 2013-08-14 22:38:03 UTC
Phaade wrote:

I highly doubt you would see enough blobs to cover every adjacent system. I hate the blob too, but there should be more concentration. It would make the warfare more tactical, especially knowing exactly which systems are being invaded and how to react appropriately. Imagine how many more fights there would be.

Fights occur when both sides think they can win (or both sides think they will have fun). If there is a dominant side and the losing side no longer has fun getting roflstomped, then the other side will bail and not play. No fights.

With a larger field, there are more opportunities for the weaker side to get fights where they think they can win.

If you, personally, want more concentration, then go attack the other side's home systems - which you would do under your proposed system anyways.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Snuffed Out
#29 - 2013-08-15 21:57:25 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Phaade wrote:

I highly doubt you would see enough blobs to cover every adjacent system. I hate the blob too, but there should be more concentration. It would make the warfare more tactical, especially knowing exactly which systems are being invaded and how to react appropriately. Imagine how many more fights there would be.

Fights occur when both sides think they can win (or both sides think they will have fun). If there is a dominant side and the losing side no longer has fun getting roflstomped, then the other side will bail and not play. No fights.

With a larger field, there are more opportunities for the weaker side to get fights where they think they can win.

If you, personally, want more concentration, then go attack the other side's home systems - which you would do under your proposed system anyways.


Well I roll through FW neutral currently, I still don't see as many fights as I'd like.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#30 - 2013-08-15 22:07:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Flyinghotpocket
remove isk for fw, problem solved then the typical can go back to 'o i dont care about sov' when some1 looses their home or 'we so gud at sov' when one takes a system.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro

Logical Chaos
Very Italian People
The Initiative.
#31 - 2013-08-15 23:05:00 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
The problem with farmers has far more to do with the plexing mechanics than anything else. Resetting a plex to neutral requires a substantial time investment at absolutely no reward

A plex that has been partially captured by one faction should degrade to neutral over time with no one next to the plex button, and degrade to neutral extremely rapidly (say, 10-20x the normal rate). So, if someone sits on a plex for 10 minutes and then gets chased out, the attacker should only need to spend 30s-1 minute in the plex to revert it to neutral.

Thus, your plexing can be interrupted and 10-20 minutes of time wasted if you decide not to fight for your plex.


I like this idea.

The farming of FW is an abomination that needs to be taken care of.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#32 - 2013-08-15 23:30:47 UTC
Phaade wrote:
Well I roll through FW neutral currently, I still don't see as many fights as I'd like.
Some perspective for you.
Back in the day any corporation with 1k kills/month was considered extremely active. Now that threshold is 3k or more.






Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#33 - 2013-08-15 23:49:20 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Well I roll through FW neutral currently, I still don't see as many fights as I'd like.
Some perspective for you.
Back in the day any corporation with 1k kills/month was considered extremely active. Now that threshold is 3k or more.









but xg back in the day it was 1k kills in battleships. now its 3k kills in destroyers n stabbed frigates

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro

X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#34 - 2013-08-15 23:52:30 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Well I roll through FW neutral currently, I still don't see as many fights as I'd like.
Some perspective for you.
Back in the day any corporation with 1k kills/month was considered extremely active. Now that threshold is 3k or more.
but xg back in the day it was 1k kills in battleships. now its 3k kills in destroyers n stabbed frigates

Drakes and Canes, not Battleships. :)
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#35 - 2013-08-16 01:31:45 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
war zones are fine, just split your forces and things stat to roll better.


Basically this. In the Gal/Cal warzone you had Khan try to take all the systems for total caldari domination by sitting 50 talwars in a single plex in a system that would be instantly deplexed.

As per usual, its not the game that is broken, its the players.
GreenSeed
#36 - 2013-08-16 03:07:21 UTC
the warzone is fine, its lowsec the one that's too small, and highsec the one that's too big.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#37 - 2013-08-16 04:46:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
@OP thats actually how planetside 2 fixed the "contesting" chaos and tried to create more battles through bottlenecks

but i am skeptical that it will change anything on the fact that most of the plexing is done with non combat alts. The plexing mechanic itself is still one of the main problems since alts can make progress while running away. Without some form of timer resets there is no incentive to stay and fight, which makes it more efficient to run and contest the next best neighboring system just to come back and finish your job when the combat pilot already left. If you can't hold the line in a plex you should not be able to influence sov - its war after all.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#38 - 2013-08-16 11:48:53 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
@OP thats actually how planetside 2 fixed the "contesting" chaos and tried to create more battles through bottlenecks

but i am skeptical that it will change anything on the fact that most of the plexing is done with non combat alts. The plexing mechanic itself is still one of the main problems since alts can make progress while running away. Without some form of timer resets there is no incentive to stay and fight, which makes it more efficient to run and contest the next best neighboring system just to come back and finish your job when the combat pilot already left. If you can't hold the line in a plex you should not be able to influence sov - its war after all.


it does not matter if it is alt or not, it is paid account (at least in theory) so no matter who uses time to be in plex.

Alts are easy to chase away and keep them away, you can also use defensive alts with empty frigates, so things are even, it is just who want to do most stuff gets and hold systems.

Without doing anything you will get nothing.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#39 - 2013-08-16 12:58:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
Bad Messenger wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
@OP thats actually how planetside 2 fixed the "contesting" chaos and tried to create more battles through bottlenecks

but i am skeptical that it will change anything on the fact that most of the plexing is done with non combat alts. The plexing mechanic itself is still one of the main problems since alts can make progress while running away. Without some form of timer resets there is no incentive to stay and fight, which makes it more efficient to run and contest the next best neighboring system just to come back and finish your job when the combat pilot already left. If you can't hold the line in a plex you should not be able to influence sov - its war after all.


it does not matter if it is alt or not, it is paid account (at least in theory) so no matter who uses time to be in plex.

it does matter. Since only one of both is content. CCP isn't stupid, they know their sandbox. For the same reason they are slowly fixing OGBs since 0 risk boosting is no game content too. Its just an alt in safety. Conflict is a main part of all the interaction in eve and plexing is basically conflict avoidance if you want to be efficient (doesn't matter if you are after lp or sov).

why are there timers in the first place? Why can't you just scan a plex down, press a button and receive LP, first come frist served? Exactly... to create conflict, combat, wrecks - its the reason why you are forced to stay in space for all the time but it doesn't work and people got used to it that it doesn't work so they farm.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2013-08-16 13:41:19 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
@OP thats actually how planetside 2 fixed the "contesting" chaos and tried to create more battles through bottlenecks

but i am skeptical that it will change anything on the fact that most of the plexing is done with non combat alts. The plexing mechanic itself is still one of the main problems since alts can make progress while running away. Without some form of timer resets there is no incentive to stay and fight, which makes it more efficient to run and contest the next best neighboring system just to come back and finish your job when the combat pilot already left. If you can't hold the line in a plex you should not be able to influence sov - its war after all.


it does not matter if it is alt or not, it is paid account (at least in theory) so no matter who uses time to be in plex.

it does matter. Since only one of both is content. CCP isn't stupid, they know their sandbox. For the same reason they are slowly fixing OGBs since 0 risk boosting is no game content too. Its just an alt in safety. Conflict is a main part of all the interaction in eve and plexing is basically conflict avoidance if you want to be efficient (doesn't matter if you are after lp or sov).

why are there timers in the first place? Why can't you just scan a plex down, press a button and receive LP, first come frist served? Exactly... to create conflict, combat, wrecks - its the reason why you are forced to stay in space for all the time but it doesn't work and people got used to it that it doesn't work so they farm.


The only thing "broken" with FW is that undefended systems that nobody lives in can be easily plexed to vulnerable by plex farmers since they win the pvp fight by default as nobody shows up to fight them. Nobody shows up to fight them because there is no point (ie the would be attacker doesn't care enough to actually defend the system and they won't get a fight). I think the proposed fix (timer roll back) will almost entirely fix the glitch.

Plex Mechanics w/ Timer Rollback:
-If only one side is within 30km of button, timer ticks to completion.
-If both sides are within 30km of button, timer stops
-If only one side is on the plex grid (non-cloaked) and timer has excess time on it, it instantly resets to neutral and begins ticking down from the neutral value.

.