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showing up on local has to be removed

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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#121 - 2013-08-13 19:56:35 UTC
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#122 - 2013-08-13 20:00:24 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Gel Musana wrote:
Local should stay.

Why?
Because without it the null lumps will pile into wormholes faster than they can be killed arguing their elite skills the whole time and taking over when everyone that lives there runs out of bullets.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#123 - 2013-08-13 20:42:20 UTC
Zatar Sharisa wrote:
I see a lot of comments about removing local. From a game background logistical point of view, this doesn't make sense. I look at local as the equivalent of a transponder squawk in current air traffic. You come on the controllers grid and he gets a radio signal that tells him a fair amount about your plane. Now, take this to a realm where space travel is not only possible, but so is FTL, instantaneous communication. If you're in system, you're squawking to local control, and all anyone else has to do is tune to the appropriate frequency.

"Ah! But you could just turn that off!" you say. Nope. I know if I were an agency setting up jump gates, which are converting you to energy and then reassembling you at your destination, I know I'm tagging anyone coming through into my system with a squawk tag, whether they turn theirs off or not. I want to know who's in my system. Period. So even if you're not squawking yourself, the tag I just put on you when you came through my gate is doing it for you just fine.

Because of this, local just plain makes sense. For those that don't like the instant intel aspects, well what do you know, it's working as intended from the logistics point of view outlined above. Therefore, no, removing local is a bad idea, and nonsensical with respect to the game setting. This also gets into a valid setting reason for why W-space has no local: no jump gate to go through and get tagged by.



That's all well and good until you get to Null sec.

Or, with all this advanced technology, don't you think that stealth technology would exist as well? Or simply "hey, I don't want to be seen by everyone in the entire solar system, what can we do about this?"

Your argument that local should remain doesn't really make sense. You can't compare civilian flight traffic today to people flying through space is the most advanced technology ever seen 25,000 years in the future.
AstraPardus
Earthside Mixlabs
#124 - 2013-08-13 22:25:58 UTC
Make local an iHub strategic upgrade? Maybe...lvl 3?
Every time I post is Pardy time! :3
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#125 - 2013-08-14 00:58:06 UTC
OP Harry is facing a kind of unusual situation. He (and some other of us, independently) is experimenting as a solo guerilla/bandido operating inside null SOV space. The big advantage RL guerrillas/bandits have is they're working in local territory. They have lots of intel provided by local friends. He has many safe places to run to and can disappear into cover. Their big forces opponents have the opposite situation-- lack of local intel, limited safe places to hide, and they're easily observable to everyone. Basically, the little guys have a huge home field advantage against the big guys. That's their comparative advantage.

But in this situation, it's the opposite. The little bandit guy isn't in his home territory picking at the big guy (a big null alliance). Instead, he has to take the fight to the alliance, inside it's home field. Everybody in Local immediately knows he (a neutral) is in the system. And they of course have the ability to instantly share that information with alliance mates in adjoining systems. Meanwhile the guerrilla guy has no intel being shared with him. He has less physical power than the big opponent, plus less intel. A guerrilla invading, instead of having the home field advantage.

Not a complaint, just some background.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#126 - 2013-08-14 01:25:07 UTC
Khergit Deserters wrote:
OP Harry is facing a kind of unusual situation. He (and some other of us, independently) is experimenting as a solo guerilla/bandido operating inside null SOV space. The big advantage RL guerrillas/bandits have is they're working in local territory. They have lots of intel provided by local friends. He has many safe places to run to and can disappear into cover. Their big forces opponents have the opposite situation-- lack of local intel, limited safe places to hide, and they're easily observable to everyone. Basically, the little guys have a huge home field advantage against the big guys. That's their comparative advantage.

But in this situation, it's the opposite. The little bandit guy isn't in his home territory picking at the big guy (a big null alliance). Instead, he has to take the fight to the alliance, inside it's home field. Everybody in Local immediately knows he (a neutral) is in the system. And they of course have the ability to instantly share that information with alliance mates in adjoining systems. Meanwhile the guerrilla guy has no intel being shared with him. He has less physical power than the big opponent, plus less intel. A guerrilla invading, instead of having the home field advantage.

Not a complaint, just some background.

In a competitive game, it is entirely reasonable that he should be able to learn skills, combined with the right equipment, to be completely undetected.

Maybe not an overwhelming threat in an up front fight, and in EVE that is already balanced in. Cloaked vessels are already nerfed in combat.

But no cloaked and stealthy ship hides from local, that universal lowering of the intel bar telling everyone about everyone else present.
It could be considered wise to raise the bar on game play, you know, enough to reward effort beyond the watching of a list of chat channel.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2013-08-14 01:26:05 UTC
I was a little surprised to see the vitriolic reactions to the idea of the removal of local in 0-sec. I had a chat with a few of my corp mates about it, and we felt that gameplay would be more dynamic and interesting if (as I think mentioned before):

1. chat is by default not enabled, because there is no communications infrastructure.
2. That infrastructure could be built and,
3. that infrastructure could be destroyed.

This would provide a future role for covert ops forward scouts, black ops demolition teams etc.

At this point I have to hold my hand up and say that I live in WH-space, where one of the things I really like about it is that hunters and hunted (I am both) need to work and play intelligently to be successful.

Whenever I jump into 0-sec it all seems so... easy. You know where everyone is, who they are, which team they belong to. To me it seems uninteresting.

However I understand that people want a safe place to make isk. And that would be available with a player-made communications infrastructure.

When I get a 0-sec entrance, I often help myself to havens and sanctums because it's easy money. I just make a safe spot, warp to the sanctum and whenever someone enters the system, warp to my safe. If I did not have that option I'd have to be cleverer and work harder to take the ISK that 0-sec dweller's hard work has made available.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Calypso Warsmith
Strata Dynamics
Power Absolute Inc.
#128 - 2013-08-14 02:25:37 UTC
Valry Maulerant wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:


they don't need local chat to defend

the game would be much more interesting if people can sneak into territory without that local chat visibility



If it doesn't show up in local, and you cant scan for it cause it's cloaked, How do you defend your sov against it?









if its cloaked you don't have to as its cloaked and can cause no harm.
Humang
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#129 - 2013-08-14 05:26:10 UTC
How about "You can disable local chat; you don't show up to others, but you can't see who is in local yourself"
Crazy idea no?

AFK cloaking thread Summary - Provided by Paikis Good Post Etiquette - Provided by CCP Grayscale
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#130 - 2013-08-14 06:04:08 UTC
Sometimes being in Local in Null gets people out of their ISK troughs to come looking for you. Not showing up in Local would mean, obviously, you would have to go gank them to get attention...but would any of these carebears undock knowing that they only know about that one dude who ganked their village idiot? That the only way they would know what the raider was flying was to use d-scan or look at the lossmail?

You can see why they wouldn't want Local removed. Its so much easier, and easier to complain about AFK Cloakers, than having to learn skills more hardcore than set Alliance intel channel to flash (and ***** when people discuss their cats in the Intel channel).

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
TheBlueMonkey
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2013-08-14 09:03:52 UTC  |  Edited by: TheBlueMonkey
Harry Forever wrote:
TheBlueMonkey wrote:
I too joined an mmo so I could play on my own


its called P vs. P for a reason, not P + P


It's called a massively multiplayer online game, not a single player game.

It baffles me, it'd be like me turning up to a football game and insisting that I'm going to sit in the middle of the field and stare at the sky. Sure I could do that, and others even do it from time to time, but if that's all I do I'm going to be missing out on a whole load of more interesting stuff.
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#132 - 2013-08-14 09:52:07 UTC
TheBlueMonkey wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
TheBlueMonkey wrote:
I too joined an mmo so I could play on my own


its called P vs. P for a reason, not P + P


It's called a massively multiplayer online game, not a single player game.

It baffles me, it'd be like me turning up to a football game and insisting that I'm going to sit in the middle of the field and stare at the sky. Sure I could do that, and others even do it from time to time, but if that's all I do I'm going to be missing out on a whole load of more interesting stuff.


do I tell you how to play it? its called massivlely because of the massive amount of opponents, nothing more

if I prefer playing solo against everybody, thats it

you don't make the rules how this has to be played

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2013-08-14 10:05:24 UTC
I wanted to make one last post in this topic on the subject of local chat.

I do a lot of pve and pvp in wormhole space. Our corp is not large so we don't have the option to blob people.

Nevertheless, we run all our pve as if it was pvp. We take a squad of cruisers or battlecruiser, logistics and put scouts on all exits.

Then, if someone does show up we have the option to either run, wait or attack them as we see fit.

It means that we are not frightened to go out and make money, even without local. We make our own defensive networks which makes our gameplay style feel professional and rewarding.

Losing local in 0-sec would change the world, but would not make it any worse. It would actually encourage corporation members to work together, and possibly enjoy the game more.

Wouldn't you like to be in a situation where you are not afraid to peek out of the station, despite there being neutrals in system?

This is what we do in W-space - and doing so, because of good communications and practice, we have not lost a single ship while doing pve in many months.

Our killboard is here if you'd like some evidence (please ignore the green spam from the bombers bar roams):
http://www.toha-conglomerate.org/killboard/?a=home

Note, we're not amazing at pvp. We just know how to create situational awareness.

Food for thought anyway.

Fly Dangerously,

/MC

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#134 - 2013-08-14 10:05:29 UTC
SmokinDank wrote:
How does one add to the topic? By agreeing? Yeah that's a great discussion.

Dammit why do I let this loser keep trolling me?


Just saying no isnt adding to the topic

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#135 - 2013-08-14 10:07:44 UTC
Anyway local is a terrible easy mode mechanic. It makes intel gathering need 0 effort and solo pvp ****. If these big groups have so much coordination why not have one member watch the gates cloaked?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Gel Musana
LOL a Sticky Situation
#136 - 2013-08-14 12:13:20 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Gel Musana wrote:
Local should stay.

Why?


I am ok to remove local chat, but not the overview. I don't want to scan things down. There should be a way to see who of your corp/alliance mates are in the same system or nearby.

But I suspect that removing the local chat will remove some of the fun and will make the game look different... i need to try it to feel comfortable with it.

Ideology  s-h-i-t  list https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/Gel%20Musana
Orti Dian
Xybercon Laboratories
#137 - 2013-08-14 12:32:24 UTC
Harry Forever wrote:
do I tell you how to play it? its called massivlely because of the massive amount of opponents, nothing more

if I prefer playing solo against everybody, and losing, and crying like a girl, thats it

you don't make the rules how this has to be played

Uh, yes... You do...
You are asking for a change to allow you to play YOUR way, while stopping us playing OUR way.
You also do not make the rules on how the game should be played, not matter how special you think you are.
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#138 - 2013-08-14 13:08:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Harry Forever
Orti Dian wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
do I tell you how to play it? its called massivlely because of the massive amount of opponents, nothing more

if I prefer playing solo against everybody, and losing, and crying like a girl, thats it

you don't make the rules how this has to be played

Uh, yes... You do...
You are asking for a change to allow you to play YOUR way, while stopping us playing OUR way.
You also do not make the rules on how the game should be played, not matter how special you think you are.


it would not stop you from playing your way at all, you would just need to put a bit more effort into looking at the gates, instead of easy alts at safespots... you people playing in alliances seem to prefer the lacy playstyle... just bringing a bit of challange to you guys, got the feeling you need it

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#139 - 2013-08-14 13:10:42 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
Sometimes being in Local in Null gets people out of their ISK troughs to come looking for you. Not showing up in Local would mean, obviously, you would have to go gank them to get attention...but would any of these carebears undock knowing that they only know about that one dude who ganked their village idiot? That the only way they would know what the raider was flying was to use d-scan or look at the lossmail?

You can see why they wouldn't want Local removed. Its so much easier, and easier to complain about AFK Cloakers, than having to learn skills more hardcore than set Alliance intel channel to flash (and ***** when people discuss their cats in the Intel channel).



Isn't Nullsec supposed to be the space where you can easily find pew? Mean, 30 man gang coming through, go after or ignore? Wormholes without local partially work so well cause no cyno. You come in through the wormholes or you don't, that's a huge difference.

All it would do is most likely get people to run highsec incursions instead of anom-ratting.
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#140 - 2013-08-14 13:17:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Harry Forever
some of those nullsec alliances feel more like a retirement club to me, they handle their space like a spa where they can mine and rat without distraction... my grandpa has more action playing golf in his resort

somebody wants to bring more people to null and they scream like babies all the time

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm