Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Where exactly do you come up with this from?

At what point do these blops fleets and wormhole groups have better intel than you do, in your own space?!

Here is something that is difficult for many to grasp, but is an important detail that those hunting will not have an advantage because of local being missing.

The advantage will always belong to whoever has sov, simply because the intel channels and patrols supplying them will be a huge advantage.

Those hunting in hostile territory will be on their own, and with no local to artificially tell them where everyone is, chances are they will have no idea.
They can, of course, guess, or do research to learn where people usually hang out, but unless someone spies for them and tips them where to look, they will be effectively blind.

Local is never the friend of PvE. PvE has a far more obvious advantage trading it in for an intel channel while the hunters are blind.

And hot dropping??

Especially after trimming the BS from it, hot dropping is a desperate tactic, and one to avoid except when absolutely necessary.

Hot Dropping: Bridging is intended to bypass reinforced blockades and travel time. Here, it has been fine tuned to avoid advertising the presence of a fleet to the free intel tool as well by delaying the easily recognizable population spike till the last possible moment. The intention is to deny the warning local provides, although it still reports the presence of the cyno boat enough to be associated with AFK Cloaking instead.
Quite simply, while PvE pilots would never resume regular activities with a hostile fleet present, they are sometimes willing to gamble over whether a cloaked vessel represents that level of threat at a given time.[/quote]
I don't really know what you want me to comment on here...
How does this have any bearing on what I was saying? WH space can't by jumped into. Null space can. If you couldn't see anyone on local, and couldn't dscan out the covops dropping it, you could have an entire fleet of bombers and blops jumped into a null system with 0 warning. This can't happen in WH space. This is one reason the lack of local matters less.
[/quote]
Noone in their right mind would ever hot drop, unless that was the only way to catch them.

And seriously, if you are not being instantly told for free about exactly who is in the system, how would you know if a roam just rushed in?
How would you know if a covert cyno went off beyond your scan range?

Considering you have no way of being instantly warned, the whole point of hot dropping vanishes.

Only a fool brings a gate equivalent onto grid, in firing range no less, of a pilot or group of pilots who are the most motivated to shoot at it.
And then add, if they kill the cyno ship BEFORE the others jump through, the others never show up at all.

Hot dropping simply is no longer justified, in this most common version referred to.

Edit: I liked your post, simply because I appreciated the honesty of your perspective.
I hope you can view my response in a constructive manner as well.


I'm sorry, I even telegraphed that play for you.

Now then, I underlined the key point above.

This point, the impossibility to completely secure a system from intrusion on an absolute level, would be exactly what is needed.
Black ops exist in name only without this ability.

The game play starts, when you realize they can do NOTHING without making significantly more effort than you do, when attacking your space.
It is a proverbial uphill effort for them, with you holding the high ground against this attack.
YOU have the advantage.

Yes, they can get in, maybe even look around before you have a chance to spot them. This would be GOOD for gameplay.
But, depending on who makes more effort, either you will spot them before or after they take a hostile action. This too would be GOOD for gameplay.
It is hardly unreasonable to assume any allied player would immediately jump on the intel channel and point out any activity that happened around them, and this would be a PASSIVE detection, since that player was not even looking for hostiles. If your side had PRO-ACTIVE detection in place, the hostile could be spotted well before they took any actions at all.
This is really GOOD for gameplay, since it has opposing efforts in place to compete with each other, not the game simply handing out the answers for everyone.

You are supposed to have never ending effort as the price for holding space, and this is exchanged for the advantages it brings you as well as the advantages in any struggle placing you in a position where you are defending it.

The rewards in null, as I have first hand knowledge about, are being reduced because the risk is proving to little, and they needed harder limits on them in other areas.

lol harry

No, but taking away local means you now have the same costs PLUS you need 24/7 eyes on every entrance + wormholes into your space.


Anyone logged off in your space, or coming through a wormhole wouldn't have to get through your outer gates to get in. This means you have to watch ALL gates, at ALL times. Once you see him come in, you then don't know where he's gone, so at best you could report shiptype and one location. This is an unreasonable amount of effort to have to put in to secure the space that you are already paying BILLIONS OF ISK for, while all they have to do is get one pilot in and jump to him, costing you billions in losses.

Please go and get an understanding of how much effort and how much time it ALREADY TAKES to form up home defense for sov before suggesting a ludicrous amount more effort to be added. You are all for adding more effort to holding sov, but you don;t seem to have an understanding of how much effort it already takes. You seem to be under the impression that one guy comes and plonks down some structures, then everyone can carebear about safely sitting behind their intel channels. That's not how it works. Intel channels are sketchy at best, and there are constant groups and/or individuals responding to reports of hostiles in pipes trying to ensure the space is clear. Bigger fleets result in a CTA, which involves a lot of pinging about on comms, grabbing an FC, picking a tactic, forming up and moving to location.

What you are suggesting would mean you need hundreds more roams, and would need to pretty much blanket all of your space in pilots, then when a large fleet is seen, trying to get everyone into a fleet without disrupting your web of intel gatherers.

And I know, you're going to come back again about how sov space is too easy and how we should have to work our asses of day and night to hold it. CCP will never make this change though, so there's literally no point continuing this endless back and forth. The second CCP make null into a career, I drop 6 accounts and move back to a WH, and I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one.

lmao

if you all bit any harder you'd have broken your teeth

ZOMG, learn to read!
I said you are ALREADY PAYING BILLIONS for the space.
I said removal of local would add TOO MUCH MORE EFFORT to hold your space.
Effort is a cost. You even said yourself: "You are supposed to have never ending effort as the price for holding space"
So for that, NO LOCAL = MORE EFFORT = HIGHER PRICE.

And I'm not saying local is the automated system for intel. It currently needs to be watched, and needs to be entered into an intel channel. What you want though is for someone to have to click scan every 3 seconds for eternity in hopes of catch someone between cloak cycles.

What is a Key gate? Since WHs can open anywhere, and any single covops can get a whole blops fleet in the back door? You are saying we need a 24/7 watch of all gates, with round the clock patrols for wormholes. This makes EVE a job, not a game.

The whole point here is that if you make null take that much effort it will no longer be worth holding. People would simply live in WH space and high sec, since they can make much more there safely. Nobody wants EVE to be a second career, yet you seem to think anyone that wants sov space should get exactly that.

Of course you get bottlenecks. There are a limited number of ships that can fit a Cov Ops cyno. If you know what those are you can provide that intel and work to counter it. The Cov Ops cyno ship still has to jump through gates and is visible before it can cloak. You should see it coming just as you would see another roaming soloer. Whether or not their gang is cynoed in to your space isn't too much of a worry. They aren't likely to start jumping BlOps BS, recons, and SBs through gates. They are going to wait for their cyno to tackle something. If you keep track of their cyno and get people safe then you have little to worry about.

Imo instead of removing showing on local in low sec and 0.0 - add an delay . So you jump into new system and you're not instantly visible, but after some time. The time should vary based on the ss of the system - so biggest delay in 0.0, smaller in 0.4 etc.

That's not a bad start, and I could live with local delayed to be honest.

I have two links in my sig below, as I spent a lot of time trying to work out a balanced answer to this myself.
You might find them of interest.

At least this could prove the point about it being possible.