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Cloaking device with fuel

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Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#221 - 2013-08-15 16:29:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Nag'o wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
If not active, at lest exposed to some risk.


And how is that different\applied to a ship in a POS bubble? There is no risk for them going AFK for a bio or whatever. Would you eject them for 15 minutes of inactivity as they are deemed to be "AFK"?


They re not in open space. Their ship is 'parked' in an owned space.


But they are still "AFK" or not active and you don't know if they are cloaked or not if you don't try and find out by D-Scan, Scouting, Intel Channels. You want to force people to be active so why not auto-eject people from POS Bubbles? And Stations?

Define "owned" space? If I 'parked' my Prowler or Manticore with cloak at my SafeSpot I am parked in my owned space. I won it cos I was there first. To own it yourself you would have to remove me to take ownership would you not? Therefore I can park anywhere I choose as I will own that space I believe.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Onomerous
KARNAGE
Ghostbirds
#222 - 2013-08-15 16:33:26 UTC
This thread is winning!! You guys have it to 12 pages. Keep on peeps.. gogogogogo!!!! 12 pages of solving a problem which isn't a problem!!!
Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#223 - 2013-08-15 16:34:35 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
If not active, at lest exposed to some risk.


And how is that different\applied to a ship in a POS bubble? There is no risk for them going AFK for a bio or whatever. Would you eject them for 15 minutes of inactivity as they are deemed to be "AFK"?


They re not in open space. Their ship is 'parked' in an owned space.


But they are still "AFK" or not active and you don't know if they are cloaked or not if you don't try and find out by D-Scan, Scouting, Intel Channels. You want to force people to be active so why not auto-eject people from POS Bubbles? And Stations?

Define "owned" space? If I 'parked' my Prowler or Manticore with cloak at my SafeSpot I am parked in my owned space. I won it cos I was there first. To own it yourself you would have to remove me to take ownership would you not? Therefore I can park anywhere I choose as I will own that space I believe.


The safespot is not yours, it's public space. The bubble can only be entered by whoever the owner of the POS allows.

I'm starting to think the ones really risk-averse here are the afk cloakers.


Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#224 - 2013-08-15 16:35:19 UTC
Onomerous wrote:
This thread is winning!! You guys have it to 12 pages. Keep on peeps.. gogogogogo!!!! 12 pages of solving a problem which isn't a problem!!!


Hi Jesus, I knew you would come up sometime. Please save me.


Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#225 - 2013-08-15 16:54:25 UTC
Nag'o wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
But they are still "AFK" or not active and you don't know if they are cloaked or not if you don't try and find out by D-Scan, Scouting, Intel Channels. You want to force people to be active so why not auto-eject people from POS Bubbles? And Stations?

Define "owned" space? If I 'parked' my Prowler or Manticore with cloak at my SafeSpot I am parked in my owned space. I won it cos I was there first. To own it yourself you would have to remove me to take ownership would you not? Therefore I can park anywhere I choose as I will own that space I believe.


The safespot is not yours, it's public space. The bubble can only be entered by whoever the owner of the POS allows.

I'm starting to think the ones really risk-averse here are the afk cloakers.

To be risk averse, you must demonstrate a desire to avoid risk.
To do this, your actions would be the most convincing demonstration.

Primary, or initial risk being avoided: PvE pilot detects threat, retreats to safe / secured point.
Secondary, in response to target being unreachable: Cloak capable pilot engages cloak to wait for prey.
(Why not leave and return later? The mechanic called local creates an obstacle where this is perpetually ineffective. Local needs to be desensitized or bypassed for any opportunity to exist)

Well, if we are going to tag risk averse as being bad, we don't have solid evidence of this AFK cloaked pilot trying to avoid risk at all.

Oh, I am sure that some of them are, yes, but not necessarily ALL of them.
There is solid motive for them to cloak simply to catch their target, as the target has demonstrated defensive action when their name is added to local, but not necessarily when it simply remains listed. The target, over time, has been shown to expose themselves if the cloaked pilot is simply patient, therefore explaining the cloaked persistence.

On the other hand, the PvE pilots who run for safety? 100%, or ALL of them, are doing this to avoid risk.

Let's take the confirmed risk averse off the table first, and see what happens then.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#226 - 2013-08-15 17:22:04 UTC
Summary: Nag wants one set of rules for himself, and another for people who pose a threat to him

baby
Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#227 - 2013-08-15 17:25:12 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
But they are still "AFK" or not active and you don't know if they are cloaked or not if you don't try and find out by D-Scan, Scouting, Intel Channels. You want to force people to be active so why not auto-eject people from POS Bubbles? And Stations?

Define "owned" space? If I 'parked' my Prowler or Manticore with cloak at my SafeSpot I am parked in my owned space. I won it cos I was there first. To own it yourself you would have to remove me to take ownership would you not? Therefore I can park anywhere I choose as I will own that space I believe.


The safespot is not yours, it's public space. The bubble can only be entered by whoever the owner of the POS allows.

I'm starting to think the ones really risk-averse here are the afk cloakers.

To be risk averse, you must demonstrate a desire to avoid risk.
To do this, your actions would be the most convincing demonstration.

Primary, or initial risk being avoided: PvE pilot detects threat, retreats to safe / secured point.
Secondary, in response to target being unreachable: Cloak capable pilot engages cloak to wait for prey.
(Why not leave and return later? The mechanic called local creates an obstacle where this is perpetually ineffective. Local needs to be desensitized or bypassed for any opportunity to exist)

Well, if we are going to tag risk averse as being bad, we don't have solid evidence of this AFK cloaked pilot trying to avoid risk at all.

Oh, I am sure that some of them are, yes, but not necessarily ALL of them.
There is solid motive for them to cloak simply to catch their target, as the target has demonstrated defensive action when their name is added to local, but not necessarily when it simply remains listed. The target, over time, has been shown to expose themselves if the cloaked pilot is simply patient, therefore explaining the cloaked persistence.

On the other hand, the PvE pilots who run for safety? 100%, or ALL of them, are doing this to avoid risk.

Let's take the confirmed risk averse off the table first, and see what happens then.


The timed cloak adds a risk no cov-ops except for me has showed a disposition to take.
There is your afk cloaker risk aversion exposed.

Let's say the time is 30 minutes or something like that. Let's say the time is not fixed, and based on fit, so we add some uncertainty to it. What changed in the situation you described except for the fact that the cloaker will not be allowed to stay afk for more than that time?
Did the risk for the said PvE pilot disappeared? It did not.




Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#228 - 2013-08-15 17:31:53 UTC
Nag'o wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
To be risk averse, you must demonstrate a desire to avoid risk.
To do this, your actions would be the most convincing demonstration.

Primary, or initial risk being avoided: PvE pilot detects threat, retreats to safe / secured point.
Secondary, in response to target being unreachable: Cloak capable pilot engages cloak to wait for prey.
(Why not leave and return later? The mechanic called local creates an obstacle where this is perpetually ineffective. Local needs to be desensitized or bypassed for any opportunity to exist)

Well, if we are going to tag risk averse as being bad, we don't have solid evidence of this AFK cloaked pilot trying to avoid risk at all.

Oh, I am sure that some of them are, yes, but not necessarily ALL of them.
There is solid motive for them to cloak simply to catch their target, as the target has demonstrated defensive action when their name is added to local, but not necessarily when it simply remains listed. The target, over time, has been shown to expose themselves if the cloaked pilot is simply patient, therefore explaining the cloaked persistence.

On the other hand, the PvE pilots who run for safety? 100%, or ALL of them, are doing this to avoid risk.

Let's take the confirmed risk averse off the table first, and see what happens then.


The timed cloak adds a risk no cov-ops except for me has showed a disposition to take.
There is your afk cloaker risk aversion exposed.

Let's say the time is 30 minutes or something like that. Let's say the time is not fixed, and based on fit, so we add some uncertainty to it. What changed in the situation you described except for the fact that the cloaker will not be allowed to stay afk for more than that time?
Did the risk for the said PvE pilot disappeared? It did not.

The timed cloak changes the dynamic, specifically in a manner that only favors the PvE pilot seeking to avoid risk.

Currently: If you do not know if a potential hostile is paying attention, you may risk exposure for activities.

After the change: A hostile by necessity is always alert and present. No chance of them being AFK. Additionally, it is much more difficult for them to remain in system cloaked over long periods, so waiting is almost always rewarded, and consequently always the default choice.

PvE wins, stalemate over.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#229 - 2013-08-15 17:34:58 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:

The timed cloak changes the dynamic, specifically in a manner that only favors the PvE pilot seeking to avoid risk.

Currently: If you do not know if a potential hostile is paying attention, you may risk exposure for activities.

After the change: A hostile by necessity is always alert and present. No chance of them being AFK. Additionally, it is much more difficult for them to remain in system cloaked over long periods, so waiting is almost always rewarded, and consequently always the default choice.

PvE wins, stalemate over.

It changes the dynamic in favor of everyone that wants more activity in the game.

Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#230 - 2013-08-15 17:35:44 UTC
Nag'o wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
But they are still "AFK" or not active and you don't know if they are cloaked or not if you don't try and find out by D-Scan, Scouting, Intel Channels. You want to force people to be active so why not auto-eject people from POS Bubbles? And Stations?

Define "owned" space? If I 'parked' my Prowler or Manticore with cloak at my SafeSpot I am parked in my owned space. I won it cos I was there first. To own it yourself you would have to remove me to take ownership would you not? Therefore I can park anywhere I choose as I will own that space I believe.


The safespot is not yours, it's public space. The bubble can only be entered by whoever the owner of the POS allows.

I'm starting to think the ones really risk-averse here are the afk cloakers.

To be risk averse, you must demonstrate a desire to avoid risk.
To do this, your actions would be the most convincing demonstration.

Primary, or initial risk being avoided: PvE pilot detects threat, retreats to safe / secured point.
Secondary, in response to target being unreachable: Cloak capable pilot engages cloak to wait for prey.
(Why not leave and return later? The mechanic called local creates an obstacle where this is perpetually ineffective. Local needs to be desensitized or bypassed for any opportunity to exist)

Well, if we are going to tag risk averse as being bad, we don't have solid evidence of this AFK cloaked pilot trying to avoid risk at all.

Oh, I am sure that some of them are, yes, but not necessarily ALL of them.
There is solid motive for them to cloak simply to catch their target, as the target has demonstrated defensive action when their name is added to local, but not necessarily when it simply remains listed. The target, over time, has been shown to expose themselves if the cloaked pilot is simply patient, therefore explaining the cloaked persistence.

On the other hand, the PvE pilots who run for safety? 100%, or ALL of them, are doing this to avoid risk.

Let's take the confirmed risk averse off the table first, and see what happens then.


The timed cloak adds a risk no cov-ops except for me has showed a disposition to take.
There is your afk cloaker risk aversion exposed.

Let's say the time is 30 minutes or something like that. Let's say the time is not fixed, and based on fit, so we add some uncertainty to it. What changed in the situation you described except for the fact that the cloaker will not be allowed to stay afk for more than that time?
Did the risk for the said PvE pilot disappeared? It did not.


But then you just put all all the cloaked recon scouts\bombers\cov-ops haulers people using emergent gameplay tactics to good use off the field completely (I won't say which ships but people use ships in all kinds of inventive ways) but now they won't because you just timed them out from using a hull which is bonused for using a Cov-Ops Cloaking Device or one that isn't but someone has been ingenius and used it outside of the box.

Why? Because you don't like the risk of someone being in your system that you cannot see...simple! And how do you know they are there: LOCAL. SImple again. I thought you were leaving this thread anyway Nag'o?

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#231 - 2013-08-15 17:36:49 UTC
Plus the risk is not avoided by that.

Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#232 - 2013-08-15 17:38:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Nag'o wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:

The timed cloak changes the dynamic, specifically in a manner that only favors the PvE pilot seeking to avoid risk.

Currently: If you do not know if a potential hostile is paying attention, you may risk exposure for activities.

After the change: A hostile by necessity is always alert and present. No chance of them being AFK. Additionally, it is much more difficult for them to remain in system cloaked over long periods, so waiting is almost always rewarded, and consequently always the default choice.

PvE wins, stalemate over.

It changes the dynamic in favor of everyone that wants more activity in the game.


And you are the one to demand that people who pay are active? Really? And you speak for everyone now do you? Really again?

Now make up your mind: Do you want:

  • ACTIVE PLAYERS
  • No AFK CLOAKERS
  • NO CLOAKED VESSELS
  • FUEL DRIVEN CLOAKS
  • TIMED CLOAKS

Which cos I've lost track? Oh that's right, you don't want risk while you PvE in Null...

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#233 - 2013-08-15 17:39:14 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:

But then you just put all all the cloaked recon scouts\bombers\cov-ops haulers people using emergent gameplay tactics to good use off the field completely (I won't say which ships but people use ships in all kinds of inventive ways) but now they won't because you just timed them out from using a hull which is bonused for using a Cov-Ops Cloaking Device or one that isn't but someone has been ingenius and used it outside of the box.

Why? Because you don't like the risk of someone being in your system that you cannot see...simple! And how do you know they are there: LOCAL. SImple again. I thought you were leaving this thread anyway Nag'o?


The ONLY thing that will change is the time the ship is able to stay cloaked.
From infinite to fit based, relevantly long.

Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#234 - 2013-08-15 17:40:22 UTC
Nag'o wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:

But then you just put all all the cloaked recon scouts\bombers\cov-ops haulers people using emergent gameplay tactics to good use off the field completely (I won't say which ships but people use ships in all kinds of inventive ways) but now they won't because you just timed them out from using a hull which is bonused for using a Cov-Ops Cloaking Device or one that isn't but someone has been ingenius and used it outside of the box.

Why? Because you don't like the risk of someone being in your system that you cannot see...simple! And how do you know they are there: LOCAL. SImple again. I thought you were leaving this thread anyway Nag'o?


The ONLY thing that will change is the time the ship is able to stay cloaked.
From infinite to fit based, relevantly long.


Again not admitting the real issue here..

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#235 - 2013-08-15 17:41:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Nag'o
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:

The timed cloak changes the dynamic, specifically in a manner that only favors the PvE pilot seeking to avoid risk.

Currently: If you do not know if a potential hostile is paying attention, you may risk exposure for activities.

After the change: A hostile by necessity is always alert and present. No chance of them being AFK. Additionally, it is much more difficult for them to remain in system cloaked over long periods, so waiting is almost always rewarded, and consequently always the default choice.

PvE wins, stalemate over.

It changes the dynamic in favor of everyone that wants more activity in the game.


And you are the one to demand that people who pay are active? Really? And you speak for everyone now do you? Really again?

Now make up your mind: Do you want:

  • ACTIVE PLAYERS
  • No AFK CLOAKERS
  • NO CLOAKED VESSELS
  • FUEL DRIVEN CLOAKS
  • TIMED CLOAKS
Which cos I've lost track? Oh that's right, you don't want risk while you PvE in Null...


I'm not demanding anything. I am giving a suggestion that can improve the game for people who PLAY.

Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#236 - 2013-08-15 17:41:50 UTC
Nag'o wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:

The timed cloak changes the dynamic, specifically in a manner that only favors the PvE pilot seeking to avoid risk.

Currently: If you do not know if a potential hostile is paying attention, you may risk exposure for activities.

After the change: A hostile by necessity is always alert and present. No chance of them being AFK. Additionally, it is much more difficult for them to remain in system cloaked over long periods, so waiting is almost always rewarded, and consequently always the default choice.

PvE wins, stalemate over.

It changes the dynamic in favor of everyone that wants more activity in the game.


And you are the one to demand that people who pay are active? Really? And you speak for everyone now do you? Really again?

Now make up your mind: Do you want:

  • ACTIVE PLAYERS
  • No AFK CLOAKERS
  • NO CLOAKED VESSELS
  • FUEL DRIVEN CLOAKS
  • TIMED CLOAKS
Which cos I've lost track? Oh that's right, you don't want risk while you PvE in Null...


I'm not demanding anything. I am giving a suggesting that can improve the game for people who PLAY.


No you're changing the game to suit you...and killing cloaking as a form of play.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#237 - 2013-08-15 17:42:02 UTC
Nag'o wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:

The timed cloak changes the dynamic, specifically in a manner that only favors the PvE pilot seeking to avoid risk.

Currently: If you do not know if a potential hostile is paying attention, you may risk exposure for activities.

After the change: A hostile by necessity is always alert and present. No chance of them being AFK. Additionally, it is much more difficult for them to remain in system cloaked over long periods, so waiting is almost always rewarded, and consequently always the default choice.

PvE wins, stalemate over.

It changes the dynamic in favor of everyone that wants more activity in the game.

The pilot hunting does not get more activity, they get less.

They must leave the system in order to refuel, or be exposed.

At no point do they get the activity for which they made such effort.
In fact, they have such diminished expectations of success, that the risks to PvE activity vanish in null.

If a fleet arrives to take the system, they evacuate. Anything short of that is waited out patiently.
A hostile pilot aware of this, is far less likely to bother trying, since they will know before hand that they will get no kills, and only annoy their would be targets.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nag'o
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#238 - 2013-08-15 17:44:11 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:

The timed cloak changes the dynamic, specifically in a manner that only favors the PvE pilot seeking to avoid risk.

Currently: If you do not know if a potential hostile is paying attention, you may risk exposure for activities.

After the change: A hostile by necessity is always alert and present. No chance of them being AFK. Additionally, it is much more difficult for them to remain in system cloaked over long periods, so waiting is almost always rewarded, and consequently always the default choice.

PvE wins, stalemate over.

It changes the dynamic in favor of everyone that wants more activity in the game.

The pilot hunting does not get more activity, they get less.

They must leave the system in order to refuel, or be exposed.

At no point do they get the activity for which they made such effort.
In fact, they have such diminished expectations of success, that the risks to PvE activity vanish in null.

If a fleet arrives to take the system, they evacuate. Anything short of that is waited out patiently.
A hostile pilot aware of this, is far less likely to bother trying, since they will know before hand that they will get no kills, and only annoy their would be targets.


It doesn't need to be fuel, could be based on cap.

Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#239 - 2013-08-15 17:48:25 UTC
Nag'o wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Nag'o wrote:
It changes the dynamic in favor of everyone that wants more activity in the game.

The pilot hunting does not get more activity, they get less.

They must leave the system in order to refuel, or be exposed.

At no point do they get the activity for which they made such effort.
In fact, they have such diminished expectations of success, that the risks to PvE activity vanish in null.

If a fleet arrives to take the system, they evacuate. Anything short of that is waited out patiently.
A hostile pilot aware of this, is far less likely to bother trying, since they will know before hand that they will get no kills, and only annoy their would be targets.


It doesn't need to be fuel, could be based on cap.

It doesn't change the need to leave the system, or remain active constantly.

They only have a shot at their targets when their targets believe them to be AFK, as it is.
This eliminates that, so it eliminates their chance to get targets.

Risk to PvE = zero.

Understand, I am a null miner. I don't want zero risk, because CCP kills my rewards when my risk drops.
They already limited my ice availability. After your change, high sec will be the go-to place for mining.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
RoAnnon
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#240 - 2013-08-15 17:49:47 UTC
Nag'o wrote:
It doesn't need to be fuel, could be based on cap.


Cloaks are ALREADY powered by the ship's cap. It's amazing to see how someone can be so focused on something as bad simply because they don't want it in game they can so completely and constantly deny facts and turn a blind eye to logic and reason.

So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter.

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