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[Proposal] Make the Abilitiy to Attack Corp Members a Grantable Role.

First post
Author
Mar'Dur Taren
The Copernicus Institute
#1 - 2013-08-12 07:06:03 UTC
The ability to attack members of your own corp is a very powerful right. The newest member can attack anyone he chooses and there are no controls on this ability. With the increasing frequency of Awoxing, this ability is now very dangerous. People joining a corp should earn the right to engage corp members not get it as a basic function of being in the corp.

Proposal : Make the ability to freely engage a corp member a corp role that can be assigned as is or attached to a title.

This would require a few extra colour tags or background colours so that people can tell the difference between a corpie that can be engaged and one that can't.

Reasoning: The ability to attack other corp members is a powerful ability. It is also being exploited mercilessly by people who have a low moral code. This means that in order for a corp to protect themselves they must have recruitment procedures which are very elaborate and verges on paranoid. This turns off a lot of new players and draws out the recruitment process considerably. It is now not safe to recruit someone without a full API, background check and killboard check. That still doesn't protect you fully. If we make the ability a corp role then Awoxers would have to work much harder to do what they do. They wont automagically be allowed to attack anyone in the corp. This gives the CEO and Directors a chance to actually get to know someone before deciding to trust them.

Proud to be a Boffin!

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#2 - 2013-08-12 09:36:33 UTC
Or, rather than by default being mechanically granted protection from allowing bad apples into your corp, you could make the effort yourself to screen out the bad apples

shocking idea, i know
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-08-12 14:32:19 UTC
So, after you get to trust someone, you THEN grant them roles to attack corp mates?

What?

Seems that the better idea is not to accept applications from everyone that applies...



Did you get safari'd by Psychotic Monk? Pirate

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#4 - 2013-08-12 18:06:19 UTC
I hate to use a real-world analogy while talking about a video game, but can you give an example of how a real corporation would be able to limit roles to a person performing some form of corporate espionage?

No? I thought so.

EVE is a sandbox where we're given the opportunity to be about as dark and dirty as we want to be. Unless you've got a way to show how a real world corporation would be able to effectively do the same and how the idea would not ruin the sandbox aspect of the game, I can only suggest going back to some hardcore twink raiding.

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#5 - 2013-08-12 19:39:44 UTC
There is a "control" against AWOXing... it's called blowing him up!
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#6 - 2013-08-12 19:44:20 UTC

AWOXing has a lot of value in EvE, and your suggestion pretty much eliminates it. Why would you do such a thing?

Good recruitment practices already eliminate most AWOX incidents!
samualvimes
Brothers At Arms
#7 - 2013-08-12 20:13:42 UTC
I can see where you're going with this but a little known important side effect you would crush is AWOXin...oh wait I see what you did there.


Tricksy you!

If you've never tried PvP in EvE it's quite possible you've missed out on one of the greatest rushes available in modern gaming.

Mar'Dur Taren
The Copernicus Institute
#8 - 2013-08-13 03:36:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Mar'Dur Taren
Everyone has assumed that I have a very open recruitment process. They are wrong. My recruitment process is very involved and takes time. However new recruits in the game find it daunting and it often puts them off. I have to be completely paranoid to be able to catch the Awoxers. I get about one in three applicants are trying to do something nefarious. I fully expect an upsurge after this post.

Awoxing gives no value at all to Eve. It is just a way to ruin someone else's game. I consider people doing it to have a very poor moral code. If someone was seriously trying to insert a spy into a corp then they need to make a greater effort.

Ok To the real world argument. Seems the poster has not had a real job in the corporate sector. Firstly, the real world corp actually meets the person that they are going to enter into the corp. Next they are on a trial period. No new employee will have access to the corp accounts, the corp secure documents or assets, or to the corp passwords and full info network. It would take months before someone could really work into a position that would harm the corp and that would be only a minor nuisance. Furthermore, in the real world there are actual consequences. A bunch of security guys and police officers will turn up at your desk and cart you away. Your argument that the real world doesn't have greater security is completely invalid.

In my experience, the only people that would support Awoxing are people that enjoy screwing with people's game experience. That's a very twisted view of the world. I want to install some basic security for corporation in empire space. As I said in the original post, the ability to attack corp members in Empire freely is very powerful. It should be controlled.

Eve may be a sandbox but that means I should have ALL the tools to manage my corp that CCP can supply. This is one I believe is necessary.

Proud to be a Boffin!

Sas'Sheren
The Copernicus Institute
#9 - 2013-08-13 04:34:00 UTC
Lykouleon wrote:
I hate to use a real-world analogy while talking about a video game, but can you give an example of how a real corporation would be able to limit roles to a person performing some form of corporate espionage?

No? I thought so.

EVE is a sandbox where we're given the opportunity to be about as dark and dirty as we want to be. Unless you've got a way to show how a real world corporation would be able to effectively do the same and how the idea would not ruin the sandbox aspect of the game, I can only suggest going back to some hardcore twink raiding.



Every corporation i have worked for has massive security down to door cards to access the lunch room and restricted access to different site buildings. your access is given based on your roll, trust and length of service. But back to "in game". why do you have the ability to stop corp members from accessing a pos force field or even joining certain fleets. i think is is a good idea to help maintain a corps integrity and trust in their toons.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#10 - 2013-08-13 10:44:13 UTC
Remember when there was an advertisement for EVE, and the entire premise of the advertisement was that you can infiltrate a corporation and wreck it from the inside.

Remember how that ability, that freedom, was literally used to promote the game

and then OP comes along and says it adds no value and needs to be removed

hahahahahahahahhaha
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-08-13 13:28:15 UTC
Mar'Dur Taren wrote:


Awoxing gives no value at all to Eve. It is just a way to ruin someone else's game. I consider people doing it to have a very poor moral code. If someone was seriously trying to insert a spy into a corp then they need to make a greater effort.


Awoxing is a very valuable tool. This game is ABOUT being able to do things like infiltrate and destroy a corp from the inside.

http://www.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/707481/huge-eve-online-theft-amazes-45000-worth-of-in-game-cash-looted/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8132547.stm

Just a few examples, and Im not trying to be negative here. There are corporations who exist JUST to take others over, steal their resources, and kill their leadership.

Its taken me a bit to get my footing in this game, but at its heart, its mean, its nasty, and its devious. And most of us love it for that reason.

THIS is the best example I can find...

http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-7-biggest-****-moves-in-history-online-gaming/

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Mag's
Azn Empire
#12 - 2013-08-13 13:53:02 UTC
Mar'Dur Taren wrote:
Reasoning: The ability to attack other corp members is a powerful ability. It is also being exploited mercilessly by people who have a low moral code.
Sorry but what do morals have to do with it? Using that argument is like saying you are against chess, due to regicide.

Ridiculous.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-08-13 16:32:56 UTC
I disagree with the proposal.

I don't do awoxing and I have had it done to a corp I was in . . . but I don't think that granting internal kill roles is the solution.

I will be very surprised if you find any support from any members of the CSM on this one.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

umbora
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-08-15 01:07:17 UTC
5mil says i can have a spy in his corp inside 3 weeks

who's AWOXing who

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#15 - 2013-08-15 12:17:39 UTC
Why not cut to the heart of the actual problem and make it so that accepting new players into the corp is a grantable role. That way only responsible, accountable individuals who can be trusted to investigate applicants properly will be able to bring new people in.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

umbora
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-08-15 22:02:10 UTC
It is already a Directors job/CEOs job to accept new members into a corp if you dont trust your director to do the job then why are they there. bad proposal!!!

who's AWOXing who

Kyon Rheyne
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2013-08-16 16:39:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyon Rheyne
All those who are trying to retort with real world examples miss (I hope unintentionally) one very important thing. In real world the corporation in fact has ways to retaliate. Some corporations, not so law abiding as others, like different crime syndicates, could actually get the spy's family, gut his childrens in front of his wife, than make her eat their intestines, after what they would probably kill him.. or not. The spy knows it and, you see, this greatly discourage him from such actions. Even in case of corporatons of more widespread type, spy can easly hit the jail after being caught and get his life basically ruined. And he won't be able to change his body as easly as one can in EVE. So basically trying to refer to RL examples in case of EVE is horribly wrong way to put it. And thats why we have a full bunch of artificial restrictions. Like, one isn't allowed to impersonate other player or corporation. Why won't you object that descision then? In RL no one can forbid you do that. But still you (usually) won't do that, for some reason. For the reason named "dire consiquences" which EVE universe devoid of. Well, almost any mmo, even almost any computer game, devoid of. Thats why the topic starter's proposal makes some sense. Though, I don't think the way he's chosen is apropriate to deal with it.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#18 - 2013-08-17 00:30:05 UTC
No.

The Tears Must Flow

Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#19 - 2013-08-18 21:57:27 UTC
Sas'Sheren wrote:
Every corporation i have worked for has massive security down to door cards to access the lunch room and restricted access to different site buildings. your access is given based on your roll, trust and length of service. But back to "in game". why do you have the ability to stop corp members from accessing a pos force field or even joining certain fleets. i think is is a good idea to help maintain a corps integrity and trust in their toons.

All of which mitigate but do not prevent. Corporation roles prevent things from being done, not mitigate. You can throw as many fancy-smancy keyfobs on a lunchroom door as you want, it's not going to change the person who uses the keycard.

Quote:
All those who are trying to retort with real world examples miss (I hope unintentionally) one very important thing. In real world the corporation in fact has ways to retaliate.

War decs, locator agents, mail spam about former wrongdoings, bounties (HEH, bad joke), hiring NOIR, posting about them...yeah, we have no way to retaliate against people who do naughty things in EVE.

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword

umbora
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-08-20 00:23:32 UTC
Mar'Dur Taren wrote:


Eve may be a sandbox but that means I should have ALL the tools to manage my corp that CCP can supply. This is one I believe is necessary.


This is a tool that no one in eve besides a few highsec carebears want the majority of players know and understand that AWOXing is a good part of eve and it allows you to get targets that you would not normally be able to get. I am guessing that you have had a rash of AWOXing incidents in your corp or this wouldn't even be an issue for you. Go put your big boy pants on and fight back against AWOXers if it means that much to you or go away cause crying on the forums is not going to get you anywhere.

who's AWOXing who

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