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Killed running a nullsec mission: Kudos to my killer & maybe a small lesson for others
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Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#1 - 2011-10-27 21:45:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Substantia Nigra
Being killed while running missions in nullsec should come as no surprise. It's part of the risk that makes for both greater rewards and usually more fun. However, I don't lose many people and each loss leads us to review what we do, or did. Each time, we've found that we've departed from our own 'usual' procedures and each time the death serves as a reminder that we'd adopted those procedures for very good reasons ... even if we've subsequently forgotten those reasons or pushed them aside in our haste.

Anyways, this posting is the story of 'my' recent death (one of my mission-runner alts actually) ... and our subsequent investigation to find out how it came to pass. The true credit, in this little tale, goes to the killer who was clever and very well prepared. I hope what we learned will be helpful to others. I know that what we learned will be old-hat to some others, but it will probably also be entirely unknown and unthought-of to many.

I also kinda like the idea of bragging about someone else killing me, when so much of what I read is ppl bragging about their killing of others :-)

The mission was basically go-to-mission-system-kill-some-stuff-and-get-item-from-can-back-to-agent. This was a pirate epic arc mission and always (so far) sends you to a system 8 - 10 jumps from the agent's location along a nullsec pipeline. It's NPC-null, but with no stations for 3 - 4 jumps from the mission system.

This time round we ran a dual-box two-ship convoy of cheetah (scout) and ishkur (DPS-ship). Our usual method of transit in this situation is -

  1. Scout warps to bookmark near next gate.
  2. If the gate is clear and next system not full of recent kills, scout jumps thru and DPS-ship warps to same near-gate bookmark. If the gate is not clear or other reason to not jump into next system right now, then we simply wait and do other things for a little while - reasoning that if they're not being fed kills or near-kills most gate campers have pretty short attention spans and move-on to other locations fairly quickly.
  3. Once scout has jumped thru into next system they check local, near-gate area, & DS. If near-gate area in new system is clear, & nothing too troubling on DS, then scout warps to bookmark near next gate and DPS-ship follows thru. If near-gate area is not clear then scout warps to near-gate bookmark and observes the gate, and DPS-ship watches from the other side, until it seems safe enough for DPS-ship to follow, and to continue.


We were in a bit of a hurry this time and, if the system was entirely empty, we were warping directly gate-to-gate. Our reasoning was that being caught in a bubble in an empty system was unlikely to be much more than a nuisance, that a ship that jumps in after us is not going to be able to attack us or get back to the gate in time to follow us out, and that even a HICtor won't stop us if we commence our warp while the system is empty. We'd been doing this for a number of systems and it was working pretty well: gate-to-bookmark if anyone else in system; gate-to-gate if system empty.

Anyways, and by now you can probably see what's coming, our scout jumps thru into the next system. There is no-one else in system so scout starts warp to next gate and DPS-ship follows thru into system.

Very soon afterwards scout is caught in a small bubble 100km short of destination gate, uncloaked, and target locked by an unfriendly person. Scout's untanked, pointed, and webbed cheetah 'powers' out of bubble to try and at least save pod and dies very quickly.

Our initial analysis was that we'd been caught by a 'spiked' bubble (30 T1 drones) and that our killer had employed some sort of not-show-in-local method ... the sort of thing you read about in these forums. So we petition. CCP doesn't quite laugh at us, but were clearly being very restrained in not doing so. We did learn that bubble-spiking is a legal and entirely legitimate, if nasty, technique.

Our scout (now in their pod) heads back to our home system (9 jumps) and reships (Thankfully we had another setup cheetah waiting there), before quickly returning to the scene of the crime.

Continued next posting ....

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2011-10-27 21:45:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Substantia Nigra
... continued from previous posting


More interested in working out how our scout was killed, than we were in the mission time bonus, we hung around that area for the next few days and watched. Putting all the pieces together, and watching several other similar kills, it now seems that this is what our killer was doing ...


  1. Builds a series of 'tactical' bookmarks near the gate. Most importantly two that are 200km from the gate, one on each side, and along the direct gate-to-gate warp line - A very important component of their tactics.
  2. Sets up bubble between gates at approximately 100km short of the destination gate - So bubble catches gate-to-gate warps.
  3. Warps Ishtar (or any ship with decent drone bay) to bubble and deploys / abandons consecutive flights of small T1 drones - To increase likelihood of uncloaking cloakies caught by bubble.
  4. Buddy / alt moves to previous system, in honking great battleship, and cloaks near the gate - Watches for traffic and identifies ship type as they uncloak to jump thru gate.
  5. Killer / tackler moves to next system (beyond the 'trap' system in the pipeline) and takes up position near the gate - Able to quickly enter the trap system.
  6. When 'victim' jumps thru gate into trap system the cloaked watcher 'relays' ship details and timing to the killer.
  7. The killer waits approximately 10 - 20 seconds (longer when intended victim is a large ship) and then jumps thru gate into trap system.
  8. The killer warps to the bubble, 100km from the gate, by warping-to-100km-from the 200km-from-gate bookmark.
  9. If 'victim' is larger than a frigate then watcher also jumps through from previous system and warps to near the bubble.
  10. If victim lands in bubble, and is uncloaked, then killer tackles. If victim is a frigate then killer despatches them solo, if larger then 'watcher' in battleship, is there in support a few seconds later.
  11. Killer is able to quickly warp the 100km back to the gate if needed, by using the 200km bookmark the far side of the gate.


For me this little episode has reminded me of a couple of lessons that we all learn early in our eve-life, and taught me a new one:

  • In nullsec gate-to-gate warps are always dangerous. Even an apparently empty system is not necessarily safe. I only save time, by warping gate-to-gate, if I don’t get killed.
  • Some of my intending killers are more clever, more dedicated, more skilled, and more savvy to game dynamics than I am. Some are not, but it's wiser for me to assume that they all know more than I do.
  • A bubble being 100km from a gate does not mean someone cannot warp to it from the gate. Having a bubble 100km from a gate is intended to maximise the inconvenience to the intended victim, but if the killer has built some decent tactical bookmarks then they have no trouble making short tactical warps.


My killer was able to enter the trap system, and warp to the 100km bubble, so quickly that it appeared to me that they were there all the time ... and that they must have been employing some sort of method to not appear in local. Congratulations to my killer, that was a very good job well done. I will now work harder at not providing you with any more such kills.


p.s. My Killer

The killer here is a very experienced nullsec PvP character. His published record shows around 2000 kills but he clearly has many, many more.

I suspect he does not post his killmails, and he almost certainly does not have his API recording kills automatically ... even on his corp / faction killboards. My alt's death does not show on any killmail recording sites I know of, or on his corp/faction killboards, and it's over two days ago now. Similarly a couple of other kills that I witnessed do not show anywhere.

If, as seems to be the case, he eschews the braggadocio of killmail-whoring then he is all the more impressive to me.

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.
iRommel
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3 - 2011-10-27 22:46:00 UTC
Shocked oh wow, learn something (or in my case lots of things) new every day in eve

thanks for taking the time to post that, well worth the read
RGB Dragon
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2011-10-27 22:54:50 UTC
Great posts, thanks for sharing!
Cthulhu F'taghn
Perkone
Caldari State
#5 - 2011-10-27 23:19:27 UTC
PL calls this no man bubble camp. Very effective until some babby sits in the middle system warning everyone who jumps in not to warp to gate.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2011-10-27 23:30:42 UTC
Bummer, but thanks for the info.

Sad

Would using the BM's in the support packages have prevented getting caught in the trap?

If you didn't have support bm's and just warped to another object first, like a planet or asteroid belt, then warped to the next gate, would you have bypassed the trap?

Also if you had warped to a planet or asteroid belt, local chat would have spiked by then since they were trying to catch you in the trap, right?

Would that have given you enough advanced notice to just bounce around and make safe spots instead of continuing to the next gate?

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2011-10-27 23:31:34 UTC
Cthulhu F'taghn wrote:
PL calls this no man bubble camp. Very effective until some babby sits in the middle system warning everyone who jumps in not to warp to gate.


Thanks Cthulhu. I had no doubt that what he appeared to be doing would also be being used by savvy others ... and that the missing factor was just my knowledge.

Is my description of how such a no-man-bubble-camp is setup close to the mark, or is there some important aspect that I have missed from watching him?

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2011-10-27 23:39:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Substantia Nigra
DeMichael Crimson wrote:

Would using the BM's in the support packages have prevented getting caught in the trap?


Using near-gate bookmarks (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=12973&find=unread) would have certainly avoided this ignominious fate ... but I was hurrying and ignoring all my own best safety efforts Sad

DeMichael Crimson wrote:

If you didn't have support bm's and just warped to another object first, like a planet or asteroid belt, then warped to the next gate, would you have bypassed the trap?


In this case, yes. The bubble was a small one and was setup between the gates, not as a behind-gate drag bubble, so was only going to catch hurrying idiots who were warping gate-to-gate.


DeMichael Crimson wrote:

Also if you had warped to a planet or asteroid belt, local chat would have spiked by then since they were trying to catch you in the trap, right?


Again yes. If I had first warped to some other location I would have both avoided the bubble and have seen him jump into the system. Another 'haste makes waste' scenario.


DeMichael Crimson wrote:

Would that have given you enough advanced notice to just bounce around and make safe spots instead of continuing to the next gate?


Absolutely. It was not for wont of having great bookmarks that I died. It was that I did not fully use the tools that were available to me. I took a "she'll be right" approach, warped gate-to-gate and got caught-out as a result.

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2011-10-27 23:47:49 UTC
Hehe,

I was going to say you managed, without trying, to sell me on your uber bookmark pirate arc guide. To be fair I was planning on buying it anyhow, but this just solidified the deal.

Thanks for sharing your insights. I too have found that i die horrible deaths when i stop following my own tried and true plans. It is usually because i either get lazy or rushed.

Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2011-10-27 23:51:02 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
I was going to say you managed, without trying, to sell me on your uber bookmark pirate arc guide.



LOL. Not a marketing ploy ... honest ... altho last post link was a bit of gratuitous advertising. Last thing I want now is more CCP-beatings for abusing this channel by too-vigorous marketing efforts.

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2011-10-28 00:02:52 UTC
Substantia Nigra wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
I was going to say you managed, without trying, to sell me on your uber bookmark pirate arc guide.



LOL. Not a marketing ploy ... honest ... altho last post link was a bit of gratuitous advertising. Last thing I want now is more CCP-beatings for abusing this channel by too-vigorous marketing efforts.




Oh I know you weren't and sorry if it got you in trouble. Thanks again for the insight. It is nice seeing someone with a wilingness to share, and also a good attitude about getting killed (all part of the game).


On a sort of related, but not exactly related note, after you ran the arcs for the first time, do you just leave some ships and a jump clone at the null sec starting point? or is it not that bad just flying your way there when you run them?
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2011-10-28 00:18:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Substantia Nigra
Derath Ellecon wrote:

On a sort of related, but not exactly related note, after you ran the arcs for the first time, do you just leave some ships and a jump clone at the null sec starting point? or is it not that bad just flying your way there when you run them?


I run them fairly often.

The first time I ran them I left jump-clones in a station in the main mission system, and since then I have established corp hangars in those stations.

Now, whenever I want to run one, I access the starter mission and clone jump the character(s) into the nullsec system to continue the arc. Once I'm thru I leave everything in the corp hangar and clone jump back out to hisec. Sometimes I also clone jump out on weekends, when those areas of nullsec tend to turn into wannabe-PvPer madhosues.

Periodically, in between times, I fly a covops / nullifier-T3 in and courier the collection of goodies back out to hisec.

btw. don't worry about the CCP-beating ... I just got a bit of a reminder from CCP re my 'package' posting in this forum. It was nothing to do with this trhead, or your cheeky comment.

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.
Aggressive Nutmeg
#13 - 2011-10-28 00:49:20 UTC
Very useful. I learnt something. One 'Like' issued.

Never make eye contact with someone while eating a banana.
Caliban Calvaluna
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2011-10-28 20:19:06 UTC
I find this when I same time find posting about your pirate arch packages. Very good to have updating of difficulty like this. Is new knowledge for me so I make likes and thank you.
Cunane Jeran
#15 - 2011-10-28 21:53:14 UTC
Nice write up and heads up, thanks :D
Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#16 - 2011-10-28 23:35:18 UTC
Substantia Nigra wrote:


My killer was able to enter the trap system, and warp to the 100km bubble, so quickly that it appeared to me that they were there all the time ... and that they must have been employing some sort of method to not appear in local. Congratulations to my killer, that was a very good job well done. I will now work harder at not providing you with any more such kills.




Perhaps they logged off in or near the bubble and pulled a loginski when their alt saw you enter the system.
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#17 - 2011-10-28 23:46:17 UTC
Anya Ohaya wrote:
Perhaps they logged off in or near the bubble and pulled a loginski when their alt saw you enter the system.


I'm not sure that'd be quicker, but anyways it wasn't what he was doing. As I mentioned in the OP, we watched for a couple days after the kill and saw how he was operating.

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.
Will Strafe
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#18 - 2011-10-29 05:03:40 UTC
Duo of Death.
Kaptain Kruncher
Gemini Technologies
#19 - 2011-10-29 11:40:43 UTC
Thanks for your post SN, it confirmed some methods used against me recently.

As much as I hate getting ganked, I do really appreciate a truly cunning adgversary. I got caught in a losec system while dual boxing exploration- lost both ships and decided to ride it out at the station in system. I could have let myself get podded or self destructed to get back to my home system 46 jumps away- but I was determined to work my out of the situation. I lost a Rapier, 2 Covops, a Drake and a shuttle before I figured out their tactics and made my escape. This corp was the most disciplined corp I have ever seen.

Anyway- It was a great challange and worth the expensive lesson.

On the other hand- sometimes we win. There is nothing more entertaining than having pirates chase you around the system for an hour and leave frustrated.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2011-11-01 07:39:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Hungry Eyes
awesome story. this is exactly why i dont run L4's. nullsec PVE is so exhilarating. high risk, high profit.

a few days ago, i was doing one of these gate warps, 3 people in system. thought no big deal. 2 drakes missed the lock, im warping to the next gate. scan. oh shi... bubble and thorax ahead of me. drakes behind me. im in a paper thin plexing Ishtar. i drop out of warp, bubble pulls me 70km behind the gate. thorax scrams me, drakes are now on top as well. i had some ogres by chance, released them on the thorax, activated gurista-specific hardeners. tanked the 3 kin-therm ships like a bauss. thorax dead, i burn back to the gate, the drakes are too slow. i tank the drakes for an extra 30 seconds as i wait for my ogres to return. jump through, and back to empire with my loot. MWD is a must.

a few days later, i lost this beautiful ship due to my clumsy butterfingers. jump through, proteus jumps with me, ashimmu warping in. no bubble. s'all good i think. then i simply stumbled and didnt mwd-cloak as well as i usually do. i got instalocked by the proteus and neuted by his ashimmu friend. what they dont know is that my 150mill ship made me about a billion in their space over about 2 days. Big smile

love nullsec.
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