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Phoenix/citadel missiles buff for Odyssey 1.1

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Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2013-08-31 04:11:34 UTC
Xotoxic wrote:
Silvetica Dian wrote:
Can your Moros be speed tanked by a carrier?


yes, at < 10 km.

Turelus wrote:
The limited range and tracking of the Moros however is not hindering it past being used at all. In fact the Moros remains one of the more popular choices as a Dreadnought due to the high damage output and ability to "blap" with tracking modules.

The Phoenix should in theory outperform the Moros past the optimal range of Blasters however a Moros with no tracking modules and perfect skills is 14+31 with Antimatter. Past the optimal you're still working on a chance to hit, just not perfect hits.
The Phoenix however is currently operating under that "not perfect hits" no matter the range as long as the target has speed, and due to missile mechanics has no benefits attacking battleships at all.

The Phoenix has the classical shield tank advantage but also suffers from massive capacitor needs for the tank as well as a lack of any implants to push tank up even higher.

While I am not a fan of breaking arguments or debates down like I am about to your logic in "Missiles are fine because they're better than blasters, Phoenix is better than Moros" is flawed because if were this the case we would see fleets of Phoenix being dropped and not fleets of Moros.

Blasters and the Moros have their limitations but this is part of what EVE should be, some weapons should have situational advantages over others. However the situational advantages of capital guns (even after their tracking nerfs) are still much higher than the citadel missile systems that the Phoenix is reduced to a "structure bashing" ship, a job which the others ships still perform well enough at and have the advantage of fighting should there be a counter drop or engagement.

Once again I will point out that most people are not asking for citadel missiles to become better than any of the capital guns, only that the gap be closed more so there is the option to use them. There are some basic numbers which could be altered on the missiles to get an effect much more in line with what is expected from a Dreadnought in the current state of EVE.

Faster travel times (to the same effect other missiles were recently changed)
More HP to survive firewalls (something capital guns don't have any issues with)
Better damage application to capital ships and battelships. (90% damage vs a moving carrier.


My point was totally not, that the Phoenix is "better" than the Moros or vice versa. The Moros is awesome and tbh I don't have personal experience with the Phoenix. However, looking at Pyfa (using that, since a Dev recently used it as well to prove damage-application, so I assume, it's pretty accurate), you see the following Picture:

a) Moros & Phoenix vs. SCap (Nyx):

http://i.imgur.com/k51GLFA.jpg

b) Moros & Phoenix vs. Large POS Tower:

http://i.imgur.com/ftMIAS4.jpg

c) Moros & Phoenix vs. Carrier (Thanatos):

http://i.imgur.com/VJzIHsL.jpg


(The Moros and Phoenix Fits were taken from actual Killboard-Kills to use "practical examples")

So, the Moros is absolutely superior against "smaller" moving Targets, like Carriers, but e.g. a Supercap is more likely to "outrun" a Moros than a Phoenix.
Additionally, the Phoenix has one more Advantage: switching Damage-Types as needed.

I'd say, both have their Pros and Cons, like everything in Eve and should stay just the way they are.


Firstly, I'd say that you have to experience the pain of the phoenix to truly empathize with the feelings in this thread! (jk lol) but seriously; all the fleet comps are moros's and nags no phoenixes' ; that's not a coincidence.

And did you just say switching damage types?! The Phoenix gets a 25% boost to ONE damage type (kinetic of course) limiting you to that... Are you sure about the outrunning supercap, thing; I'm certain that the other dreads can track better than the phoenix. It is foolish to say ANYTHING in eve should stay the same; eve is always changing and evolving. The phoenix NEEDS to change. Somehow it needs to: its pathetic! I should know, I fly the sucker!

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#62 - 2013-10-26 14:53:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Katrina Oniseki
This thread needs life breathed into it. Citadel missiles need attention. Hopefully for Rubicon 1.1

Yes, I used the search function and necro'd an old thread instead of starting a new one.

Katrina Oniseki
Luc Chastot
#63 - 2013-10-26 16:29:59 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
This thread needs life breathed into it. Citadel missiles need attention. Hopefully for Rubicon 1.1

Yes, I used the search function and necro'd an old thread instead of starting a new one.

Good. Thank you. Have a cookie.

Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#64 - 2013-10-26 16:50:55 UTC
Luc Chastot wrote:
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
This thread needs life breathed into it. Citadel missiles need attention. Hopefully for Rubicon 1.1

Yes, I used the search function and necro'd an old thread instead of starting a new one.

Good. Thank you. Have a cookie.


Nomnomnom!

Katrina Oniseki
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2013-10-29 22:05:57 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
This thread needs life breathed into it. Citadel missiles need attention. Hopefully for Rubicon 1.1

Yes, I used the search function and necro'd an old thread instead of starting a new one.


Did I just get acknowledgment from a credible member of the EVE community? I'm in shock!

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Turelus
Utassi Security
#66 - 2013-11-04 10:12:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Turelus
I used my Phoenix in a fleet the other day and people made fun of me.

We're not asking for OMGWTFPWN Phoenix or Citadel missiles, just that our ship not be a COMPLETE joke and another year of gathering dust while we wait for the full Capital rebalance.

*edit*
I did the dirty deed and tweeted this thread directly to CCP Fozzie and CCP Rise, I want some Dev attention... Cry

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#67 - 2013-11-04 12:21:38 UTC
The specifics of this mechanic make it a fairly risky balance task. The line between "useless" and "superpowerful when combined with webs and painters" is actually quite narrow.

So although we're not currently happy with the performance of the Phoenix in all areas, we are also going to be moving cautiously. That means you'll see us wait a while between tweaks to let things settle and get a good grasp on how the cleverest players are using the systems involved.

I expect that's not the answer you were hoping to hear, but it's the best we have to offer at this time. We're choosing our steps carefully here with good reason.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Sentient Blade
Crisis Atmosphere
Coalition of the Unfortunate
#68 - 2013-11-04 12:37:51 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The specifics of this mechanic make it a fairly risky balance task. The line between "useless" and "superpowerful when combined with webs and painters" is actually quite narrow.


But nobody is going to bother webbing and painting, because by the time you've launched your missiles, and waited for them to hit the target necessitating holding said webs and painters, you could have blapped 3 other ships using a moros.

A phoenix is "good" for one thing; structure bashing.. and its citadel torp ammo capacity even makes that fairly laughable.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#69 - 2013-11-04 12:41:01 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
That will kill missile pvp. The immunity to ewar compensates for the delayed damage. Instead ccp should just create a separate module similar to TE's for missiles. This would also help the phoenix.


But wouldn't that be just another TP? Aside frome the thing that TP's have limited effective range.

I have to ask, because unfortunately or maybe luckily for me, I do not fly Dreadnaughts, what's the average range of citadel missiles? Depending on that, a TP bonus might be a better option than a new "Missile Tracking enhancement" module.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Brib Vogt
Doomheim
#70 - 2013-11-04 13:01:10 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The specifics of this mechanic make it a fairly risky balance task. The line between "useless" and "superpowerful when combined with webs and painters" is actually quite narrow.

So although we're not currently happy with the performance of the Phoenix in all areas, we are also going to be moving cautiously. That means you'll see us wait a while between tweaks to let things settle and get a good grasp on how the cleverest players are using the systems involved.

I expect that's not the answer you were hoping to hear, but it's the best we have to offer at this time. We're choosing our steps carefully here with good reason.


in cap vs cap how would you use your TPs and Webs?

I have a Phoenix on the way to ALL V and the real damage to a large POS is so much lower then it is on paper, even shot into 0% resist. My Nags damage is very close to the one on the paper
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#71 - 2013-11-04 13:47:25 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The specifics of this mechanic make it a fairly risky balance task. The line between "useless" and "superpowerful when combined with webs and painters" is actually quite narrow.

So although we're not currently happy with the performance of the Phoenix in all areas, we are also going to be moving cautiously. That means you'll see us wait a while between tweaks to let things settle and get a good grasp on how the cleverest players are using the systems involved.

I expect that's not the answer you were hoping to hear, but it's the best we have to offer at this time. We're choosing our steps carefully here with good reason.



Read as "We don't have a clue what to do with the missile dreads, but know they suck, so deal with it. Can we interest you in shiny objects like OP interceptors to keep you interested?"
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#72 - 2013-11-04 14:32:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The specifics of this mechanic make it a fairly risky balance task. The line between "useless" and "superpowerful when combined with webs and painters" is actually quite narrow.


I believe the point being referred to obliquely here is the potential for a Phoenix to start laying down unavoidable 150k volley damage to subcaps, given sufficient painter/web support. In contrast, an arty Nag only gets 91k volley, and a blaster Moros gets 60k or so. The difference between the damage formulae means that a ship could still hope to mitigate some turret damage by orbiting close enough, but against the properly-supported Phoenix, it could do nothing. So you have to make that level of support very hard to achieve.

So don't go near this. Don't make the Phoenix better at the blap game, don't increase its ease of damage application. Instead, make it do what it's supposed to be good at - smashing capitals and structures. Right now it's no good at this, because:

It has less raw damage than Moros and Naglfar against structures and capitals;
The interaction of siege mode and missile flight time reduces applied DPS over a siege cycle in a fashion not experienced by turret dreads;
The kinetic-only damage bonus is hopelessly vulnerable to in-combat refitting to kinetic hardeners, meaning that you have to mix damage types, further reducing your raw DPS.

Therefore:

Change Phoenix to omni-damage bonus.
Increase raw DPS (via ROF, to avoid silly volley damage) to exceed that of Naglfar and Moros.
Don't alter ease of damage application.
Increase citadel missile velocity to reduce DPS lost at the start and end of siege cycles.

Result:

A hard-tanking dread specialised in killing capitals and structures in smaller-scale fights. What it lacks in the blap game, it makes up for as a capital whacker. If the enemy brings in a Moros or Naglfar to blap your subcaps, you should bring in a Phoenix to nuke their capitals - not just another Naglfar or Moros.

Oh, and sort out the excessively homogeneous ranges of capital turrets to make the Revelation a role other than a dread for those too lazy to reload.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#73 - 2013-11-04 16:02:30 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The specifics of this mechanic make it a fairly risky balance task. The line between "useless" and "superpowerful when combined with webs and painters" is actually quite narrow.

So although we're not currently happy with the performance of the Phoenix in all areas, we are also going to be moving cautiously. That means you'll see us wait a while between tweaks to let things settle and get a good grasp on how the cleverest players are using the systems involved.

I expect that's not the answer you were hoping to hear, but it's the best we have to offer at this time. We're choosing our steps carefully here with good reason.


you could make it so capital ships cannot shoot subcapital ships
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#74 - 2013-11-04 16:31:09 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The specifics of this mechanic make it a fairly risky balance task. The line between "useless" and "superpowerful when combined with webs and painters" is actually quite narrow.

So although we're not currently happy with the performance of the Phoenix in all areas, we are also going to be moving cautiously. That means you'll see us wait a while between tweaks to let things settle and get a good grasp on how the cleverest players are using the systems involved.

I expect that's not the answer you were hoping to hear, but it's the best we have to offer at this time. We're choosing our steps carefully here with good reason.



Read as "We don't have a clue what to do with the missile dreads, but know they suck, so deal with it. Can we interest you in shiny objects like OP interceptors to keep you interested?"


Wouldn't buffing dreads just play into the hands of the nullsec cartels? We must be eternally vigilant to avoid their dark tendrils of corruption.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#75 - 2013-11-04 16:43:04 UTC
it would be nice if CCP fixed HAMS and small missiles first and introduce the much desired missile mods we were promised a couple of years ago that still haven't turned up yet

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#76 - 2013-11-04 18:53:57 UTC
Seconding the HAM fix. It's much more important to fix them because they're accessible to nearly every player unlike citadel weapons which are an extremely specifix training path.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#77 - 2013-11-04 19:22:41 UTC
inb4 rapid heavy torp launchers

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2013-11-04 20:29:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Vassal Zeren
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The specifics of this mechanic make it a fairly risky balance task. The line between "useless" and "superpowerful when combined with webs and painters" is actually quite narrow.

So although we're not currently happy with the performance of the Phoenix in all areas, we are also going to be moving cautiously. That means you'll see us wait a while between tweaks to let things settle and get a good grasp on how the cleverest players are using the systems involved.

I expect that's not the answer you were hoping to hear, but it's the best we have to offer at this time. We're choosing our steps carefully here with good reason.


I'm calling you on the "all areas," Fozzie. The Phoenix performs significantly worse than all other dreads. Period. There is no circumstance where it is preferable to have a Phoenix. Even its max dps (which is mostly theoretical when factoring in damage application) is about 2k below Moros and company. There is no logical reason to use this ship over its competitors.

And you would not feeding into the demands of nullsec cartels (who are largely happy with the status quo) because you are not buffing as you put it "dreads" (emphasis on the plural). You would be buffing the one that sees little use, giving missile users a viable cap.

I don't think mentioning nullsec cartels is not a valid point; blobs and a proliferation of capitals are another can of worms.

As for long range capital missiles: Citadel Tops are bad enough. Cit Cruise missiles are ridiculous to the point of insanity. I mean, you buffed regular cruise which were bad; try the Cit variant lol.

If you aren't going to fix it before more balancing ok. But I think you are sugarcoating this ships condition.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#79 - 2013-11-04 21:16:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Vassal Zeren wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The specifics of this mechanic make it a fairly risky balance task. The line between "useless" and "superpowerful when combined with webs and painters" is actually quite narrow.

So although we're not currently happy with the performance of the Phoenix in all areas, we are also going to be moving cautiously. That means you'll see us wait a while between tweaks to let things settle and get a good grasp on how the cleverest players are using the systems involved.

I expect that's not the answer you were hoping to hear, but it's the best we have to offer at this time. We're choosing our steps carefully here with good reason.


I'm calling you on the "all areas," Fozzie. The Phoenix performs significantly worse than all other dreads. Period. There is no circumstance where it is preferable to have a Phoenix. Even its max dps (which is mostly theoretical when factoring in damage application) is about 2k below Moros and company. There is no logical reason to use this ship over its competitors.

And you would not feeding into the demands of nullsec cartels (who are largely happy with the status quo) because you are not buffing as you put it "dreads" (emphasis on the plural). You would be buffing the one that sees little use, giving missile users a viable cap.

I don't think mentioning nullsec cartels is not a valid point; blobs and a proliferation of capitals are another can of worms.

As for long range capital missiles: Citadel Tops are bad enough. Cit Cruise missiles are ridiculous to the point of insanity. I mean, you buffed regular cruise which were bad; try the Cit variant lol.

If you aren't going to fix it before more balancing ok. But I think you are sugarcoating this ships condition.


Perhaps we should just take this quote literally "we're not currently happy with the performance of the Phoenix in all areas", and assume it applies to players and developers alike.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Kasumi 'Goto
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2013-11-05 02:26:32 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The specifics of this mechanic make it a fairly risky balance task. The line between "useless" and "superpowerful when combined with webs and painters" is actually quite narrow.

So although we're not currently happy with the performance of the Phoenix in all areas, we are also going to be moving cautiously. That means you'll see us wait a while between tweaks to let things settle and get a good grasp on how the cleverest players are using the systems involved.

I expect that's not the answer you were hoping to hear, but it's the best we have to offer at this time. We're choosing our steps carefully here with good reason.


i am just glad to see CCP acknowledging the Phoenix isn't balanced properly compared to other dreads. I am curious to see what changes CCP makes in the future to address this. Thanks for acknowledging this Fozzie.