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Phoenix/citadel missiles buff for Odyssey 1.1

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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#41 - 2013-08-27 22:45:08 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
PinkKnife wrote:
The problem is that missiles don't miss, they just run out of range.

If you buff the cap missiles too much it becomes a game of insta-blap anything.

The easiest, and messiest way, is to change the phoenix to use hybrids, and give the moros different weapons (capital sentry drones?) to offset it.


Well you can always have two ships use hybrids. But it seems unfair to caldari missile pilots that train all the way down the missile skill line to not be able to train capital stuff like everyone else. Missiles can still be smart-bombed even if you boost the hp (it would just take more people, eliminating the easiness of it) What annoys me is that fozzie has even admitted that the phoenix is underpowered but has not addressed it. It's not as though this is some basic frig; this is the endgame missile boat that cost 3 bill after fitting. Shouldn't they at least TRY to buff the citadel missiles?



Maybe you should wait and see what the capital rebalance brings?

or, reprocess your phoenix and build a real dread.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2013-08-28 01:32:51 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:
PinkKnife wrote:
The problem is that missiles don't miss, they just run out of range.

If you buff the cap missiles too much it becomes a game of insta-blap anything.

The easiest, and messiest way, is to change the phoenix to use hybrids, and give the moros different weapons (capital sentry drones?) to offset it.


Well you can always have two ships use hybrids. But it seems unfair to caldari missile pilots that train all the way down the missile skill line to not be able to train capital stuff like everyone else. Missiles can still be smart-bombed even if you boost the hp (it would just take more people, eliminating the easiness of it) What annoys me is that fozzie has even admitted that the phoenix is underpowered but has not addressed it. It's not as though this is some basic frig; this is the endgame missile boat that cost 3 bill after fitting. Shouldn't they at least TRY to buff the citadel missiles?



Maybe you should wait and see what the capital rebalance brings?

or, reprocess your phoenix and build a real dread.


Funny how your second statement entirely proves my point yet you are trying to zing me.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Tarn Kugisa
Kugisa Dynamics
#43 - 2013-08-28 07:00:47 UTC
The phoenix needs a buff
It's the only dread that can become space bunker, all the others just adjust the length the guns sit from the ship

the simplest way to buff missiles so people would like them more for PvP would be to increase flight speed 2x and decreased flight time proportionately

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Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#44 - 2013-08-28 07:20:27 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
The problem is that missiles don't miss, they just run out of range.

If you buff the cap missiles too much it becomes a game of insta-blap anything.
.
Well, it wouldn't really be an issue for missiles in general actually, if you looked at the countermeasures, (smartbombs/defenders + some new CIWS) at the same time.

Guess I've just never really liked the way the missile system has developed over the years.

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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#45 - 2013-08-28 09:14:32 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:


Funny how your second statement entirely proves my point yet you are trying to zing me.



The whole 'wait and see what they do with the thing' kind of still applies you know.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#46 - 2013-08-28 11:11:41 UTC
as far as raw stat buffs go
60-90m/s explosion velocity (perfect damage application against other other capitals, no more ******** speed tanking) for torps/cruise respectively
1450/1050m explosion radius for torp/cruise respectively (penalises MWD speed tanking battleships somewhat, promote smarter warfare)

To balance against siege module stats on missiles drop slightly to 45-75m/s and 2k/1.75km radius ie slightly better explosion speed but same radius as before

What does this mean? Unsieged dreads can defend themselves a scratch better against sub-caps but return to pretty much the same animal when sieged. As far as volley damage for missiles is concerned I have very little to add. I think their volley damage is nice and from everything I've read the main issue has always been explosion velocity rather than raw damage.
Athena Machina
Akadeimia Keipouron SVK
Apocalypse Now.
#47 - 2013-08-28 12:29:21 UTC
IMO, remove Citadel Missiles and launchers completely. Instead give Swarm Torpedo and Swarm Cruise missile launchers. The ammo is the same size as a regular cruise or torpedo but instead of one, it launches say 6 missiles per launcher. The ship will then be usable at least in combat situations not involving a stationary tower. The ammo range can be in line with other dreadnoughts.

When Swarm weapons are fired on moving targets or smaller ships, not all missiles make contact. So if your launcher fires 6 cruise missiles each for 4 launchers(is that right for dread highs?) then you have 24 missiles per volley but a moving target or a smaller ship does not get hit by all the missiles.

Swarm ammo is sold separately at the same cost as current citadel missiles and costs the same to build.
Markku Laaksonen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#48 - 2013-08-28 12:48:26 UTC
General Guardian wrote:
Well, in one very unlikely (but possible) way. Citadel missiles COULD be considered way overpowered. Although for this to occur there would have to be some major shenanigans involved.

Let's say your Citadel torpedo thas a max range of 65km and rate of fire is 13 seconds.
Total alpha we can average at 140k for this example.

If by some bizarre turn of events you got starbursted or super bumped towards a target from max range at roughly the same speed as your torps (vicinity of 1750m/s?), you would arrive on top of your target at the same time as your first 2 volleys to hit, and 2 seconds before the 3rd volley hits.

This is roughly 420k damage in the space of 3 seconds. Or 140k dps.

This isn't possible with turrets.

:D


Wasn't this a thing with Ravens way back in the day? Cavalry Ravens or something like that.

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Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2013-08-28 20:47:48 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:


Funny how your second statement entirely proves my point yet you are trying to zing me.



The whole 'wait and see what they do with the thing' kind of still applies you know.


Fair, but don't you think this issue has been classified as a "wait and see" for a little too long?

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#50 - 2013-08-28 21:08:39 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:


Funny how your second statement entirely proves my point yet you are trying to zing me.



The whole 'wait and see what they do with the thing' kind of still applies you know.


Fair, but don't you think this issue has been classified as a "wait and see" for a little too long?



Yeah, but given that the capital rebalance is coming soonTM, we at least know it'll be looked at one day.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2013-08-28 21:17:17 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:


Funny how your second statement entirely proves my point yet you are trying to zing me.



The whole 'wait and see what they do with the thing' kind of still applies you know.


Fair, but don't you think this issue has been classified as a "wait and see" for a little too long?



Yeah, but given that the capital rebalance is coming soonTM, we at least know it'll be looked at one day.


I suppose but I was hoping they could do some band-aid work like they did with the nag.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Turelus
Utassi Security
#52 - 2013-08-28 22:06:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Turelus
PinkKnife wrote:
The problem is that missiles don't miss, they just run out of range.

If you buff the cap missiles too much it becomes a game of insta-blap anything.


Isn't this exactly what's happening with other capitals right now? because of their ability to "blap" battleships (with support) they are more viable than the Phoenix. No one is asking for it to be able to one shot a frigate that's moving, only that it strike Captial ships for more than 50% of its damage. To be able to apply some damage to a Battleship with a web/painter support fleet would also give it the chance to join Blap-Dreads.


Danika Princip wrote:

Maybe you should wait and see what the capital rebalance brings?

If we were to wait for this then according to CCP's plan the Phoenix would spend another year (maybe two?) as a complete joke.
No one here is asking for a complete redesign of the ship, only that the missiles be looked at and made more viable for the current state of EVE.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2013-08-28 22:13:39 UTC
Thank you Turelus!

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2013-08-29 23:10:17 UTC
ehhh, bump...

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Alduin666 Shikkoken
Doomheim
#55 - 2013-08-30 02:17:29 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
General Guardian wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:
General Guardian wrote:
Do you realise increasing the explosion radius would be a nerf?


Yeah, it would be wouldn't it? But I said improve. As in make better aka smaller.


Ah my bad, I read "Increase" for some reason. Must have been too early in the morning lol.

Didn't they just buff citadel missiles by changing the penalty on the siege module? Or are they still bad?


Yeah, NP man, I kind of got a bit brisk with you anyways. As for the buff their explosion velocity is now 30. Ok great. so in other words you wont even hit a moving capital for full damage. The moros does like 13-16k dps and the phoenix does like 10k (and thats damage fit faction bcus and ammo) add to that that missiles are inferior anyways cause the damage is delayed, and you have yourself an inferior dread. I say buffs are in order.


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Xotoxic
Guns and Babes Inc.
#56 - 2013-08-30 08:50:32 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
The moros does like 13-16k dps and the phoenix does like 10k (and thats damage fit faction bcus and ammo) add to that that missiles are inferior anyways cause the damage is delayed, and you have yourself an inferior dread. I say buffs are in order.


You realize, that Blasters (Moros) are pretty limited in Range and Tracking, while you apply damage evenly in your Phoenix?

The Phoenix is able to apply even damage at about 0-58 km, while the Moros only outperforms it at 5-35 km (in other words, the Phoenix outperforms the Moros at about half of it's range).

Besides of that, the Phoenix has the classical shield tank advantage: on the Moros you have to sacrifice tank for damagemods, while the Phoenix can fit more tank, while still being able to fit damagemods in the low-slots.
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2013-08-30 11:27:05 UTC
Xotoxic wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:
The moros does like 13-16k dps and the phoenix does like 10k (and thats damage fit faction bcus and ammo) add to that that missiles are inferior anyways cause the damage is delayed, and you have yourself an inferior dread. I say buffs are in order.


You realize, that Blasters (Moros) are pretty limited in Range and Tracking, while you apply damage evenly in your Phoenix?

The Phoenix is able to apply even damage at about 0-58 km, while the Moros only outperforms it at 5-35 km (in other words, the Phoenix outperforms the Moros at about half of it's range).

Besides of that, the Phoenix has the classical shield tank advantage: on the Moros you have to sacrifice tank for damagemods, while the Phoenix can fit more tank, while still being able to fit damagemods in the low-slots.


Can your Moros be speed tanked by a carrier?

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Turelus
Utassi Security
#58 - 2013-08-30 17:20:30 UTC
Xotoxic wrote:

You realize, that Blasters (Moros) are pretty limited in Range and Tracking, while you apply damage evenly in your Phoenix?

The Phoenix is able to apply even damage at about 0-58 km, while the Moros only outperforms it at 5-35 km (in other words, the Phoenix outperforms the Moros at about half of it's range).

Besides of that, the Phoenix has the classical shield tank advantage: on the Moros you have to sacrifice tank for damagemods, while the Phoenix can fit more tank, while still being able to fit damagemods in the low-slots.


The limited range and tracking of the Moros however is not hindering it past being used at all. In fact the Moros remains one of the more popular choices as a Dreadnought due to the high damage output and ability to "blap" with tracking modules.

The Phoenix should in theory outperform the Moros past the optimal range of Blasters however a Moros with no tracking modules and perfect skills is 14+31 with Antimatter. Past the optimal you're still working on a chance to hit, just not perfect hits.
The Phoenix however is currently operating under that "not perfect hits" no matter the range as long as the target has speed, and due to missile mechanics has no benefits attacking battleships at all.

The Phoenix has the classical shield tank advantage but also suffers from massive capacitor needs for the tank as well as a lack of any implants to push tank up even higher.

While I am not a fan of breaking arguments or debates down like I am about to your logic in "Missiles are fine because they're better than blasters, Phoenix is better than Moros" is flawed because if were this the case we would see fleets of Phoenix being dropped and not fleets of Moros.

Blasters and the Moros have their limitations but this is part of what EVE should be, some weapons should have situational advantages over others. However the situational advantages of capital guns (even after their tracking nerfs) are still much higher than the citadel missile systems that the Phoenix is reduced to a "structure bashing" ship, a job which the others ships still perform well enough at and have the advantage of fighting should there be a counter drop or engagement.

Once again I will point out that most people are not asking for citadel missiles to become better than any of the capital guns, only that the gap be closed more so there is the option to use them. There are some basic numbers which could be altered on the missiles to get an effect much more in line with what is expected from a Dreadnought in the current state of EVE.

Faster travel times (to the same effect other missiles were recently changed)
More HP to survive firewalls (something capital guns don't have any issues with)
Better damage application to capital ships and battelships. (90% damage vs a moving carrier.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2013-08-30 23:45:43 UTC
Alduin666 Shikkoken wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:
General Guardian wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:
General Guardian wrote:
Do you realise increasing the explosion radius would be a nerf?


Yeah, it would be wouldn't it? But I said improve. As in make better aka smaller.


Ah my bad, I read "Increase" for some reason. Must have been too early in the morning lol.

Didn't they just buff citadel missiles by changing the penalty on the siege module? Or are they still bad?


Yeah, NP man, I kind of got a bit brisk with you anyways. As for the buff their explosion velocity is now 30. Ok great. so in other words you wont even hit a moving capital for full damage. The moros does like 13-16k dps and the phoenix does like 10k (and thats damage fit faction bcus and ammo) add to that that missiles are inferior anyways cause the damage is delayed, and you have yourself an inferior dread. I say buffs are in order.


WHY CAN'T MORE INTERNET MISUNDERSTANDINGS BE LIKE THIS!!


I guess because people can say the things that are frustrating them without any reprisal; I've been overly harsh too sometimes just because there is the opportunity. But I'm trying to do better!

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Xotoxic
Guns and Babes Inc.
#60 - 2013-08-31 01:28:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Xotoxic
Silvetica Dian wrote:
Can your Moros be speed tanked by a carrier?


yes, at < 10 km.

Turelus wrote:
The limited range and tracking of the Moros however is not hindering it past being used at all. In fact the Moros remains one of the more popular choices as a Dreadnought due to the high damage output and ability to "blap" with tracking modules.

The Phoenix should in theory outperform the Moros past the optimal range of Blasters however a Moros with no tracking modules and perfect skills is 14+31 with Antimatter. Past the optimal you're still working on a chance to hit, just not perfect hits.
The Phoenix however is currently operating under that "not perfect hits" no matter the range as long as the target has speed, and due to missile mechanics has no benefits attacking battleships at all.

The Phoenix has the classical shield tank advantage but also suffers from massive capacitor needs for the tank as well as a lack of any implants to push tank up even higher.

While I am not a fan of breaking arguments or debates down like I am about to your logic in "Missiles are fine because they're better than blasters, Phoenix is better than Moros" is flawed because if were this the case we would see fleets of Phoenix being dropped and not fleets of Moros.

Blasters and the Moros have their limitations but this is part of what EVE should be, some weapons should have situational advantages over others. However the situational advantages of capital guns (even after their tracking nerfs) are still much higher than the citadel missile systems that the Phoenix is reduced to a "structure bashing" ship, a job which the others ships still perform well enough at and have the advantage of fighting should there be a counter drop or engagement.

Once again I will point out that most people are not asking for citadel missiles to become better than any of the capital guns, only that the gap be closed more so there is the option to use them. There are some basic numbers which could be altered on the missiles to get an effect much more in line with what is expected from a Dreadnought in the current state of EVE.

Faster travel times (to the same effect other missiles were recently changed)
More HP to survive firewalls (something capital guns don't have any issues with)
Better damage application to capital ships and battelships. (90% damage vs a moving carrier.


My point was totally not, that the Phoenix is "better" than the Moros or vice versa. The Moros is awesome and tbh I don't have personal experience with the Phoenix. However, looking at Pyfa (using that, since a Dev recently used it as well to prove damage-application, so I assume, it's pretty accurate), you see the following Picture:

a) Moros & Phoenix vs. SCap (Nyx):

http://i.imgur.com/k51GLFA.jpg

b) Moros & Phoenix vs. Large POS Tower:

http://i.imgur.com/ftMIAS4.jpg

c) Moros & Phoenix vs. Carrier (Thanatos):

http://i.imgur.com/VJzIHsL.jpg


(The Moros and Phoenix Fits were taken from actual Killboard-Kills to use "practical examples")

So, the Moros is absolutely superior against "smaller" moving Targets, like Carriers, but e.g. a Supercap is more likely to "outrun" a Moros than a Phoenix.
Additionally, the Phoenix has one more Advantage: switching Damage-Types as needed.

I'd say, both have their Pros and Cons, like everything in Eve and should stay just the way they are.