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Foundations of Freedom: An Open Essay

Author
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#21 - 2013-08-11 17:10:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Stitcher wrote:
I always interpreted "liberty" something like as follows: if Meritocracy is an orchestra, then there's a critical difference between being handed a violin and told to sit down, and being ushered into a room full of instruments, hearing a demonstration of them all, getting the chance to learn a little bit about each, and then being asked "Which do you wish to play? Incidentally, we don't have enough violins at the moment..."

Which is better? Doing what your people need because you weren't given the alternative, or making the informed decision to set aside your own interests and do what your people need because you know they need it?

I'd argue that the latter is the essence of Heiian. Running the risk that some people will neglect their duty is the price we pay for having the word "duty" mean anything.


Comrade-citizen Hakatain,

If Heiian is the art of introspection then I find my analogy apt for it is in Heiian where is found the simple principle of continued self-questioning as to how we may best serve the Greater Good of society. You appear to be implying that I am advocating the denial of choice or freedom of thought. I am not. Indeed, the ability to engage in sustained rational argument and debate among ones own peers and comrades is fundamental in ensuring ones own actions best serve society for if one is unaware of the thoughts, demands and requirements of those one is obligated towards then it becomes impossible to make decisions that fulfill ones own responsibilities. There is no greater virtue in life to me than the ability to engage in constructive dialogue and debate for it both at once makes leaders accountable and subordinates able to freely express their concerns.

Freedom to me is the ability to indeed make those informed decisions according to the principles I hold dear: Service to my State. Loyalty to my family, my company and comrades. To act in the best interests of my fellow comrade-citizens and society at large. My decisions are informed because they are guided by free and open discussion among my contemporaries and it is through those discussions that we best decide what are the appropriate actions to take in life. As a Caldari citizen however, free and open discussion is tempered by the fact that we do in fact adhere to the same principles of Heiian and a commitment to the Greater Good of the State and our people. We may have many different paths we walk in life but we all seek the same goals.

My fundamental disagreement with Gallentean - and particularly Caillean Liberalism - philosophical concepts of Freedom and Liberty is that the extreme focus on what they describe as "individual liberty" leads to the very destruction of cultural values and societal integrity. According to such philosophies, individual liberty is incompatible with the Caldari way of life for adherence to Heiian, service to the State and acceding to the demands of society for the Greater Good are all tyrannical impositions upon the individual to be destroyed and abolished so that the individual may be "free".

And that I will not abide by, nor accept as a truth to be held.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#22 - 2013-08-11 17:30:28 UTC
I hold the essay above to be ample answer to the question I am sometimes asked "Why do you follow that Gesakaarin woman?"

Kirjuun - she doesn't just write essays on this question. She runs her Corporation according to these principles.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-08-12 09:13:39 UTC
Wait what?
You follow this traitor, because she tries to apply gallentean methodology to "Caldari" corporation?

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#24 - 2013-08-12 09:47:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Diana Kim wrote:
Wait what?
You follow this traitor, because she tries to apply gallentean methodology to "Caldari" corporation?


I might personally put it down to possessing a degree of charisma and intelligence.

However you have readily displayed that since you possess the personal appeal of syphilitic-ridden prostitute and the mental capacity to match, then they are foreign concepts for one such as you.

I can but wish upon the traitor Heth to live at least awhile longer so that he may grant you the fulfillment of the desire you seem to have to kneel before him with your mongrel-dog of a mouth agape and he can finally do at least one favour to the State by inflicting your final end through a fellatio-induced asphyxiation.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-08-12 10:37:19 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Wait what?
You follow this traitor, because she tries to apply gallentean methodology to "Caldari" corporation?


I might personally put it down to possessing a degree of charisma and intelligence.

However you have readily displayed that since you possess the personal appeal of syphilitic-ridden prostitute and the mental capacity to match, then they are foreign concepts for one such as you.

I can but wish upon the traitor Heth to live at least awhile longer so that he may grant you the fulfillment of the desire you seem to have to kneel before him with your mongrel-dog of a mouth agape and he can finally do at least one favour to the State by inflicting your final end through a fellatio-induced asphyxiation.

First you talked like a gallentean.
Then you acted like a gallentean.
And now you are even trying to insult like a gallentean.

Even Hakatain-haan couldn't disgrace Caldari blood greater, than you did.

You are a shame to our people, Gesakaarin, and I will look forward to remove all of Caldari blood from your filthy body.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Anja Suorsa
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#26 - 2013-08-12 11:05:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Anja Suorsa
I'll not get in the way of the argument, Gesakaarin-haani does not need me to defend her afterall, though I thought I would suggest you try actually reading the earlier statements again, in full this time, Kim. It would spare you embarrasment (though I suspect you are incapable of feeling shame) in future. How you have misunderstood her words quite so badly is beyond me.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-08-12 11:58:40 UTC
Anja Suorsa wrote:
I'll not get in the way of the argument, Gesakaarin-haani does not need me to defend her afterall, though I thought I would suggest you try actually reading the earlier statements again, in full this time, Kim. It would spare you embarrasment (though I suspect you are incapable of feeling shame) in future. How you have misunderstood her words quite so badly is beyond me.

Well, this is highly incorrect speaking like this about me. I am quite capable of feeling shame, and I feel shame every time when people like Gesakaarin tell that she is "Caldari".
And I will give you counter advice: it would spare you embarrassment in the future if you stop unprovoked personal attacks on peoples. And maybe even spare your life, if people whom you attack hold weapons.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-08-12 12:20:56 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
it would spare you embarrassment in the future if you stop unprovoked personal attacks on peoples.

The sheer irony of this statement made me light-headed.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-08-12 12:38:13 UTC
Why is that, gallentean child? I don't see any irony in here.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#30 - 2013-08-12 12:42:36 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Well, this is highly incorrect speaking like this about me. I am quite capable of feeling shame, and I feel shame every time when people like Gesakaarin tell that she is "Caldari".

That's not shame you're feeling, Puppy. That's jealousy.

Diana Kim wrote:
And I will give you counter advice: it would spare you embarrassment in the future if you stop unprovoked personal attacks on peoples. And maybe even spare your life, if people whom you attack hold weapons.

Given your track record with Pyre Falcon pilots, I'm pretty sure Ms. Suorsa has absolutely nothing to worry about when it comes to you.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-08-12 12:47:00 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Why is that, gallentean child? I don't see any irony in here.

You, a person who - were there a monarchy for such a thing - would be the queen of unwarranted personal attacks, criticising others for making unwarranted personal attacks. Which is in and of itself an unwarranted personal attack.

Did you know that incapacity to perceive irony is a sign of many forms of mental disorder?

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#32 - 2013-08-12 13:00:31 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Why is that, gallentean child? I don't see any irony in here.

You, a person who - were there a monarchy for such a thing - would be the queen of unwarranted personal attacks, criticising others for making unwarranted personal attacks. Which is in and of itself an unwarranted personal attack.

Did you know that incapacity to perceive irony is a sign of many forms of mental disorder?

Well, I never actually started a personal attack on anyone, who didn't personally attack myself or my State.

That I do personal attacks on you and other scum, this is a consequence of your own actions. And that you are unable to retrieve information about my replies and talk like that only proves your ignorance.

My personal attack are very much warranted, and you deserve them the most.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Steffanie Saissore
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#33 - 2013-08-12 13:05:23 UTC
Every post you make Kim is a personal attack against someone and the majority of these attacks have been unwarranted.

Criticism, done with the intent to help, is not a personal attack. You, however, start off, or finish, every single post of yours by ridiculing a person and labeling them with racial slurs.

We travel in the dark of the new moon,

A starry highway traced on the map of the sky

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-08-12 13:14:34 UTC
Steffanie Saissore wrote:
Every post you make Kim is a personal attack against someone and the majority of these attacks have been unwarranted.

Criticism, done with the intent to help, is not a personal attack. You, however, start off, or finish, every single post of yours by ridiculing a person and labeling them with racial slurs.

Ah, another ignorant gallentean loudmother.
Maybe you will educate us and show such attack, eh?
So your words won't be such empty lie as your empty gallentean head!

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-08-12 13:40:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Comrade-citizen Hakatain, ... You appear to be implying that I am advocating the denial of choice or freedom of thought.


Quite the reverse, I understood what you were saying and was in fact echoing and supporting you, contributing my own reflections on the subject in the process.

I apologise if I phrased myself in a way that was open to such misunderstanding.

Quote:
Freedom to me is the ability to indeed make those informed decisions according to the principles I hold dear: Service to my State. Loyalty to my family, my company and comrades. To act in the best interests of my fellow comrade-citizens and society at large. My decisions are informed because they are guided by free and open discussion among my contemporaries and it is through those discussions that we best decide what are the appropriate actions to take in life.


On this, you and I are in total agreement. The point I sought to make was that the freedom to serve must necessarily contain the freedom not to, or else it is not freedom at all. Heiian is defined by sacrifice, choice and free agency, it is the virtue of choosing to look beyond yourself to embrace collective need over personal desire.

I meant only to say that I believe that service without the willing rejection of a selfish alternative contains nothing to celebrate. At no point did I intend to imply that you felt or were advocating differently.

As a rule I try not to imply at all. I find forthright communication to be far better than circumspect insinuation.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#36 - 2013-08-12 13:55:39 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
I meant only to say that I believe that service without the willing rejection of a selfish alternative contains nothing to celebrate.


As good a definition of duty as any.
Steffanie Saissore
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#37 - 2013-08-12 14:39:27 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Steffanie Saissore wrote:
Every post you make Kim is a personal attack against someone and the majority of these attacks have been unwarranted.

Criticism, done with the intent to help, is not a personal attack. You, however, start off, or finish, every single post of yours by ridiculing a person and labeling them with racial slurs.

Ah, another ignorant gallentean loudmother.
Maybe you will educate us and show such attack, eh?
So your words won't be such empty lie as your empty gallentean head!


Kim,
Grow up.
You run your little mouth and nothing but the same words keep falling from your lips. You have nothing new to say, so until you have learned more than "Gallente must wallow in their own blood" and "Federation must be destroyed" I strongly suggest you keep silent.

You throw around insults and decry other people all the time, but what amazes me is the moment anyone attempts to call you on your crap, you dismiss them and continue pandering to your own ego. Also, I find it most interesting that the moment anyone calls you on your threat of violence against them, you hide behind more words. Either step up to the plate and man up, or shut up.

We travel in the dark of the new moon,

A starry highway traced on the map of the sky

Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#38 - 2013-08-12 16:36:07 UTC
Alright, I'll play this game. I'll start with this thread.

Diana Kim wrote:
Ah, another ignorant gallentean loudmother.
Maybe you will educate us and show such attack, eh?
So your words won't be such empty lie as your empty gallentean head!


Both of the bolded and underlined portions are unwarranted personal attacks and insults.

Steffanie is neither ignorant nor a loudmouth. Nor, for that matter, is her head empty.

Moving on to the Kaalakiota Okusaika thread. Because of limitations on use of 'quote' blocks, I'll just be linking your posts and highlighting parts of them.

  1. Responding to Repentence Tyrathlion: "rotten gallentean-infused minds", "incompetent barkers"
    • You're saying she's incompetent without any evidence to back you up, as well as claiming her mind is "rotten" due to... y'know, I don't even know if you can "infuse" a mind in the way implied.
  2. Responding to Alex Etolle: "gallenteans can't see beyond their own nose", "your deranged 'peoples'"
    • You have no grounds to make statements like these given your position.
  3. Responding to Repentence Tyrathlion: "lovely rotted Federation", "gallentean lapdog",
    • While she may not be insulted by either of these, they are both unwarranted and unfounded personal attacks and insults.
  4. Responding to Repentence Tyrathlion: "slow-witted", "Only in your inefficient incompetent gallentean-infused brain."
    • These attacks were both unwarranted and unfounded. Repentence is anything but slow-witted, and is neither inefficient nor incompetent. You may also want to check your eyes: she's Khanid. Her brain is not "gallentean-infused."
  5. Responding to Vikarion: "you are either blind or stupid."
    • Vikarion, while in my opinion a person too bitter for his own good at times, is neither blind, nor is he stupid. He spoke to you civilly, and you responded with unwarranted and unfounded insults and personal attacks.
  6. Responding to Verin Hakatain: "weakling", "Pathetic."
    • Yet again, unwarranted and unfounded insults and personal attacks. Verin is neither of these. The fact that he stands up and speaks his mind makes him stronger than a lot of people I know.


Now, to the "Blue-on-blue" thread. Same deal as above.

  1. Responding to Shintoko Akahoshi: "EM are tribals, it is their habit to whack each other head for stupid reasons."
    • Racist, and insulting beyond being a personal attack on any member of Electus Matari.
  2. Responding to Veikitamo Gesakaarin: "gallentean bootlicking scum like you"
    • Personal attack, and entirely backwards at that. She wears the boots that get licked clean by others, after she shoves them up someone's ass. Not the other way around.
  3. Responding to Steffanie Saissore: "show doll"
    • This was pretty clearly intended as an insult and personal attack, regardless of what you intend to define by it.
  4. Responding to Repentence Tyrathlion: "such ignorant gallentean bootlickers as you"
    • Yeah, uh... starting to get a little repetitive aren't these? As before, unwarranted and unfounded.
  5. Responding to iyammarok: the entire last paragraph
    • Self-explanatory.


Right, now that that's done with, back to whatever holo Repentence pulled out of the library for us to watch for a bit while we wait for you to come up with something else funny.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#39 - 2013-08-12 16:46:36 UTC
Steffanie Saissore wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

Ah, another ignorant gallentean loudmother.
Maybe you will educate us and show such attack, eh?
So your words won't be such empty lie as your empty gallentean head!


Kim,
Grow up.
You run your little mouth and nothing but the same words keep falling from your lips.

Grow up? No, really? From you?...
I have just asked you to provide any proofs to your words, which, I have to say, weren't just argument, but silly insult, and you acted as a True Gallentean: replied with more insults.

Quote:

You have nothing new to say, so until you have learned more than "Gallente must wallow in their own blood" and "Federation must be destroyed" I strongly suggest you keep silent.

Maybe nothing new, but look up, since it is you, among others, who prove that my position against gallenteans is properly justified.
Besides, you don't have an authority for such suggestion for me, and I thank the Maker and all the winds that you and peoples like you will never have an authority over me.

Quote:

You throw around insults and decry other people all the time, but what amazes me is the moment anyone attempts to call you on your crap, you dismiss them and continue pandering to your own ego.

You are perfectly describing what are you doing just now.

Quote:

Also, I find it most interesting that the moment anyone calls you on your threat of violence against them, you hide behind more words. Either step up to the plate and man up, or shut up.

Shush, gallentean.
I never hide myself, and you can easily browse my combat record.
Last time you asked, it was a participation in a wicked gallentean show to boost your own self-importance, or whatever you gallenteans do with shows like this.
But as I have said, I don't hide. You can easily find me in space, killing your kind, or, if you feel not competent enough to face me in space, you can always find me in my quarters in station.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#40 - 2013-08-12 17:07:41 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Wait what?
You follow this traitor, because she tries to apply gallentean methodology to "Caldari" corporation?


What?

Veikitamo Gesakaarin-kirjuun wrote:

My fundamental disagreement with Gallentean - and particularly Caillean Liberalism - philosophical concepts of Freedom and Liberty is that the extreme focus on what they describe as "individual liberty" leads to the very destruction of cultural values and societal integrity. According to such philosophies, individual liberty is incompatible with the Caldari way of life for adherence to Heiian, service to the State and acceding to the demands of society for the Greater Good are all tyrannical impositions upon the individual to be destroyed and abolished so that the individual may be "free".


You did read to that bit, right?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.