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What is wrong with wormhole space?

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Winthorp
#121 - 2013-08-11 12:30:15 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
I want to cut WH's off from the rest of eve and i think my ideas are so drastic that they will never be considered by CCP


Fixed
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#122 - 2013-08-11 12:33:04 UTC
Jason Shaishi wrote:

I think what might be a good idea is to have a few lower class anoms spawn in C5/C6s. This will get day trippers into holes as well as give more incentives for medium sized corps to join higher class wormhole space. The lower class anoms shouldn't spawn as frequently as the higher class sites (maybe for every 2-3 Core Bastions/Citadels, Mirrors etc there is one lower class anom)


The problem with trying to draw daytrippers into high class WHs is that they are often too deep into W-Space for most. Why bother going 3 systems in, risking getting trapped, just for the same anoms you can get in a C3 static Lowsec?

I think what C6 WHs need is a conflict driver, something that would be attractive enough to draw in large alliances again, and maybe get some of the ex-C6-current-C5 holders to move back up.

C5 space is populated but there's over 500 systems, nobody wants to waste their time rolling for PVP in that, especially when most C5 occupants are farmers not interested in anything but making isk.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2013-08-11 12:42:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Vassal Zeren
So this idea occurred to me while reading the black hole thread and since I think it is actually a good idea, (both from a game-play standpoint and a ease of implementation standpoint) unlike most of the other fantasies that spew from my fingers, I'm going to post it in this thread.

The idea is to give holding a hole more meaning. I own J### you'd say. Joe would say he doesn't give a damn. Then you say to Joe: "yeah, but I get a chance of looting THIS module from this wh, and nowhere else can it be found!" "Oh that's interesting," Joe would say. Joe would then proceed to roll his static until he finds you, melts you, and steals your wh, special module chance and all.

Each wormhole in the game should have the chance to spawn its own J### sleeper. This special sleeper drops some sort of item, (a gun, a tanky thing, something) but the item is unique to your wh! Perhaps you get parts that need to be combined with some salvaged components also unique to your wh, or maybe a small group of whs, giving you the module. In any case, that definitely makes you want to hold a specific whs and gives you more of a sense of ownership for that hole.

Cool, right? Though I'm more likely to be on the receiving end of Joe's antics, I admit.

EDIT: To keep things balanced and add even more flavor to this new idea, CCP could make it so that the special item could only be used in your wormhole, or a wh constellation, or a wh class, or just wormhole space generally, giving the item more flavor. The home field advantage could be very different. Maybe the item helps your pos or boosts other people. There are tons of possibilities. In any case, this was the jackpot idea I was forming earlier. Faction spawns, Deadspace loot, Officer loot, all make the null farmer's life more exiting. This would be the wormhole jackpot, to make wormholes more exciting.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Winthorp
#124 - 2013-08-11 12:43:14 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
C5 space is populated but there's over 500 systems, nobody wants to waste their time rolling for PVP in that, especially when most C5 occupants are farmers not interested in anything but making isk.


Well to be fair they roll all the time for PVP, the difference being that they don't often continually roll to do evictions (that happens but not to the ease of effort that you have in C6 space that has made C6 residents abuse it). To say that C5 is full of farmers is pretty ridiculous and this is half the reason you lot in C6 space have become delusional.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#125 - 2013-08-11 12:55:20 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
Winthorp wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
C5 space is populated but there's over 500 systems, nobody wants to waste their time rolling for PVP in that, especially when most C5 occupants are farmers not interested in anything but making isk.


Well to be fair they roll all the time for PVP, the difference being that they don't often continually roll to do evictions (that happens but not to the ease of effort that you have in C6 space that has made C6 residents abuse it). To say that C5 is full of farmers is pretty ridiculous and this is half the reason you lot in C6 space have become delusional.


Stop bashing C6s and start proposing stuff to help W-Space. Roll

Also, I've never evicted anyone from a C6, a few merc ops in low class WHs, but there's no point in evicting someone who will provide a fight.
Farmers, however, you have been warned. Twisted

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#126 - 2013-08-11 12:57:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Winthorp wrote:
I think to fix WH space is to boost the number of people




The #1 reason more people don't come to w-space is the time sink. The other main reasons I've heard tossed around frequently is risk versus reward. Corp theft. And of my own opinion w-space is not a noob friendly place.

W-space requires way too much time to do anything. We often joke on TS that if you don't have 3 hours to blow, you don't have time to play in w-space. 3 hours!


  • Depending on how many people you have online it's going to take 5 - 45 minutes to roll the static looking for pew. And seeing how a lot of systems don't have people or people willing to pew or people you can pew you roll your static often.

  • Then there's probing for everything. That's 5 - 45 minutes or longer with good skills for every system you open up.

  • The only thing producible in w-space from start to finish is a T3. You've always got to go back to k-space. So you have to go there eventually.


Risk versus reward: Up to and including C4's, HS Incursion income is way too competitive. Sure, you can make 200mil/hr in a C4. But you can make 100mil/hr in a HS Incursion without risk of being jumped and losing your shiny fleet to gankers or losing your POS and assets to sieges. Mining, do we even need to discuss why it's just so bad for income in w-space?

Corp theft: The POS system is one of those things that we should be protesting at every fanfest at every presentation as to why CCP has not yet fixed it. It takes extra-ordinary measures to work around it's dysfunction. Even giving someone the ability to fuel a pos can have disastrous consequences.

Noob friendliness: W-space requires that a player be able to probe efficiently since you do it for everything you want to do. With the new probing system, I have a toon with all level 5 probing skills, implants and a specifically fitted ship and I still lose sigs, it's rather ridiculous. If a player can't fly scout or DPS cloaked they're basically sitting at POS waiting for the rest of us to find something. If they can't field rather highskilled ship fits they're not farming and relegated to salvager position or stuff for a few months relying on PI for income.

I have rather lax standards for recruitment but still, if a player can't probe or fly dps cloaked I generally tell them they're going to be bored as hell out here.

Don't ban me, bro!
Winthorp
#127 - 2013-08-11 12:58:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Winthorp
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Winthorp wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
C5 space is populated but there's over 500 systems, nobody wants to waste their time rolling for PVP in that, especially when most C5 occupants are farmers not interested in anything but making isk.


Well to be fair they roll all the time for PVP, the difference being that they don't often continually roll to do evictions (that happens but not to the ease of effort that you have in C6 space that has made C6 residents abuse it). To say that C5 is full of farmers is pretty ridiculous and this is half the reason you lot in C6 space have become delusional.


Stop bashing C6s and start proposing stuff to help W-Space.

Also, I've never evicted anyone from a C6, a few merc ops in low class WHs, but there's no point in evicting someone who will provide a fight. Farmers, however, you have been warned. Twisted


Go back 1 page to see my proposal but you already did see that a few minutes before you posted this when you liked it, but i can't not correct idiots that post incorrect information. And to be fair i only bash C6 space people when they complain about C6 space being so empty, i find hypocrisy to be hard to bear.

Perhaps you could propose some stuff? Lets hope its better then your alliance mate that wants to cut WH space off from all of EVE. Roll

And farmers are content every day they log in, something to think about.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#128 - 2013-08-11 13:11:35 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
Winthorp wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Winthorp wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
C5 space is populated but there's over 500 systems, nobody wants to waste their time rolling for PVP in that, especially when most C5 occupants are farmers not interested in anything but making isk.


Well to be fair they roll all the time for PVP, the difference being that they don't often continually roll to do evictions (that happens but not to the ease of effort that you have in C6 space that has made C6 residents abuse it). To say that C5 is full of farmers is pretty ridiculous and this is half the reason you lot in C6 space have become delusional.


Stop bashing C6s and start proposing stuff to help W-Space.

Also, I've never evicted anyone from a C6, a few merc ops in low class WHs, but there's no point in evicting someone who will provide a fight. Farmers, however, you have been warned. Twisted


Go back 1 page to see my proposal but you already did see that a few minutes before you posted this when you liked it, but i can't not correct idiots that post incorect information.

Perhaps you could propose some stuff? Lets hope its better then your alliance mate that wants to cut WH space off from all of EVE. Roll

And farmers are content every day they log in, something to think about.


I did see your proposal and it is a good one.

No I don't think cutting off WHs is a great idea.

Farmers are content the way that an oasis is water in the desert. They log in, sure, but they don't fight. If you're lucky you can gank them before they get out of the site they're running, but that isn't PVP, that's ganking another ratter. If I wanted to gank things I'd go to nullsec, I'm in W-Space looking for fights.

And you seem like you're mad at C6s alliances, did you get evicted by anyone I know?

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#129 - 2013-08-11 13:56:52 UTC
Winthorp wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:
I want to cut WH's off from the rest of eve and i think my ideas are so drastic that they will never be considered by CCP


Fixed


Yes that is exactly it. The rest of the eve-universe is so fked up that we need to save the wormhole systems from it.

Cartels, system renters, babysitting, holy jihad over goop...

Please lets bring wormhole space into its own, then maybe the kspace people will want to actually come in and play.

But yea, I could care less of having 1 pilot go out to get fuel a month, or have one guy run to jita to buy ammo.. apparently that is the "Interactive Eve Experience" and how "wormholers stay connected".

We came into wormholes because we do not want to be connected to kspace.

I want wormholes to have a value, to have a reason for people to go Get some Pew rather than orbit the sun and ask for stupid duels. The loot in wormhole space should come from blowing up peoples POS then getting WORMHOLE loot, not kspace crap.

I do not want Disney World, I want anarchy and complete all out explosive war. You get that when someone has something valuable, and you want to take it from them.

Yes wormhole space should have a influence over the rest of kspace, and not the otherway around.

You highsec to carebear, you lowsec to pirate and pvp, you nullsec to.. rent and carebear and occasionally Blob with 4000 people and get ratings on a stream or get into the news. Hell null's more broken than anything I've seen. Crystal fleets, Moon Goop Cartels, Renter Space, DED 9 and 10 site runs by the carebears of carebears, deadspace loot worth BILLIONS (in 1 damn module), farmed daily. What do we do? We run sites, suck gas, to build 1 thing, T3's. Of course no one wants actual LOOT to drop in wormhole space, that would turn neweden upside down, the values of all modules would go wonky, and people would want to start raiding wormhole space more often. Oh how horrible that would be.

We Wormholers live in wormhole space just to fk people up, randomly screaming inside with 3 to 30 guys, trying to kill everything we see.

But we won't waste our time if there is no value in doing it. If I just wanted a good fight, I'd hang in lowsec. Actually that's what we've been doing lately of all horrible things. There are no ops, no reason to splat other wormholers. There is no value.

So yea, Tear down the fictional interaction between kspace and wormhole space, and bring the kspacer's into us, lets see what happens.

Yaay!!!!
ExookiZ
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#130 - 2013-08-11 14:29:59 UTC
Winthorp wrote:
To say that C5 is full of farmers is pretty ridiculous and this is half the reason you lot in C6 space have become delusional.


you obviosuly havent been in c5s for a while. If the C5 is occupied it has about a 80% chance of being occupied by a inactive/Farming corp that does nothing but run sites and log off. For a nullbear you complain an oawful lot about people in C6s.

As i stated in my last post ally our whining about us evicting other WH corps is complete nonsense. Are farming corps burned and razed? yup, all the time. and nothing of value was lost. I am not aware of any true WH corps being bullied out of C5 space.

Even if some are, suck it up, my corporation built it's way up to where we were, we werent babied, we got whelped plenty of times by other WH corps, lost towers, paid ransoms, had to start from scratch a couple times. I am not sure why lately eve being the way it is is being blamed on us. Nothing has changed it has been this way since apocrypha, there are larger organized Wh corps and there are smaller fledgeling ones working on getting there. The difference is those willign to keep striving to improve, rather than cry to ccp that theyre losing to corps better than them.


Rather i believe the issue simply lies with C1-C4 making too much money/being tooe asy if they dont think the isk in C5/C6 space is worth the risk and additional PVP. If things were balanced people would be trying to mvoe up here. I tisnt theyre trying and getting killed, usually theya rent trying at all. I have talked with tell me that what C5/C6 space has to offer over what they ahve now sint worth it to them, to the risk/Reward doesnt scale well over the systems.

Event Organizer of EVE North East
Nix Anteris
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#131 - 2013-08-11 14:35:09 UTC
Yo, take your squabbles elsewhere. This is supposed to be Issue / Fix / Impact thread so the CSM can compile a list to take back to CCP, not so they can sift through your tears, get bored, and give up halfway through because you filled the thread with spam.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#132 - 2013-08-11 16:06:48 UTC
Nix Anteris wrote:
Yo, take your squabbles elsewhere. This is supposed to be Issue / Fix / Impact thread so the CSM can compile a list to take back to CCP, not so they can sift through your tears, get bored, and give up halfway through because you filled the thread with spam.


Well that is the key thing.

Wormholes, its concept itself, was a fantastic creation by CCP, and its current implementation, created literally by accident.

The reason you get such a loud response is that this area of Eve has not been touched... in years. It is a fronteir location, outside of the prying eyes of most of the players.

Yes wormholes are scary. Extremely scary. Any suggested changes will be met by stiff arguements, both by the people who want new implementations into wormhole space, and those who do not want new implementations because it may cut into their play.

Wormholes are a very touchy subject. On the one hand, people do not want wormholes to turn into nullsec blobfests, on the other, people say its already turned into that.

I want more people in wormhole space. The only way to get more people into wormhole space is to give them something they can grab with their hands and say "wow, fat loot, this looks cool let me equip it".

Does that bring allot of nonsense into wormhole space, yep, but it brings more people into wormhole space.

Yaay!!!!
Cowgeneral
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2013-08-11 17:51:43 UTC
Restart the defunct Wormhole Storyline and tie up the loose ends started by Arek'Jaalan. This doesn't have to just be lore-based information, instead several additions or edits can be made to W-Space.

A lot of stuff I was thinking of was already suggested, but just to reiterate and add my support:

-Make each site have a short description rather than the generic warp-in message for a general group of them. IE (Space is a lullaby, exploration a dream... etc.) Same could be said of the Sleeper drones themselves.

-I saw the idea of roving groups of Sleepers and thought that was a neat idea, that and a graphics update to W-Space as a whole.

-Small escalations for low level wormholes and maybe Sleepers guarding Wormhole entrance/exits or appearing after a certain amount of time if someone stays for too long.

At the risk of shameless self-advertising, here is a thread that is still open an active discussing the Wormhole Storyline, now several years old. In it you can find some disgruntled lore people and some ideas.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=260261

chris elliot
Treasury Department
Plug N Play
#134 - 2013-08-11 18:12:59 UTC
This may get brushed under the table but, since CCP made it so that I can access a CHA from anywhere in the force field, can they please extend this to SMA's as well. Having one without the other is freaken annoying.
chris elliot
Treasury Department
Plug N Play
#135 - 2013-08-11 18:15:47 UTC
Or conversely can we have the old jumping animation back?

It really is terribly immersion breaking and downright annoying to have my camera yanked to zero on every jump. I fail to see what was wrong with the old animation.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#136 - 2013-08-11 18:17:44 UTC
Here's a thing I ran into today:

Issue: No scrolling on bookmarks, when we scan a system with 50+ sigs we can't access all of them on our dropdown menu.
Solution: Give us scrolling on our dropdown menu (I think this has been done elsewhere)
Effect: Enhanced UI, better gameplay experience

Issue: Not being able to exit bookmarks from the dropdown menu
Solution: Give us the ability to edit bookmarks by right clicking in space
Effect: Same as above.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Nix Anteris
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#137 - 2013-08-11 19:31:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Nix Anteris
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
No scrolling on bookmarks, when we scan a system with 50+ sigs we can't access all of them on our dropdown menu.


Another solution would be nested folders, although this could end up backfiring and making it hard to find bookmarks when trying to find one quickly.
Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
#138 - 2013-08-11 19:40:52 UTC
* Science and Industry tab planets: double click or a button per row to open custom offices directly.
-> Convenience for PI

* Science and Industry window resizability: please smaller
-> Less cluttering of screen

* Repackage for everything, especially containers.
-> Obvious effect: pure bliss

* Containers openable in pos modules
-> Less pain

* Scanning: Be able to locate(Hightlight, blink, fu) bookmarks by double clicking(convenience) or right click on map
-> Convenience to efficiently check BMs

* Scanning: Ignore/hide bookmarks icons on map view()
-> Lot's of BMs(for example) safes clutter map

* Static and very very boring NPC content -> more dynamic nature to sites, everything is just autopilot
-> More risk

* Mini hacking games decreased ISK/h for ex ladar/radar sites, takes alot of time to clear sites. Was the income that good and needed that nerf?
-> Depends

Odyssey: Repacking in POS hangars for modules +1,  but please for other stuff too, especially containers. Make containers openable in POS hangars.
Winthorp
#139 - 2013-08-11 20:19:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Winthorp
Nix Anteris wrote:
Yo, take your squabbles elsewhere. This is supposed to be Issue / Fix / Impact thread so the CSM can compile a list to take back to CCP, not so they can sift through your tears, get bored, and give up halfway through because you filled the thread with spam.


Actually this has been 6 pages of spam long before i got here, i have only read 3 proposals of any merit at all and you know what these same 3 proposals have been asked for from the Wh community for many years before Chitsa thought to make a thread and ask for them.

The rest of this thread is full of unreasonable stupid ideas that will never get implemented when CCP can't even fix the bugs they force on WH space when they change other parts of the game as they see WH's as such a tiny part of their game.

People should stop with the bizarre ideas and instead focus on more reasonable subtle changes that actually have a hope of making a substantial positive difference to WH space. Note: cutting WH space off from all of eve is not one of the reasonable ideas.
Winthorp
#140 - 2013-08-11 20:45:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Winthorp
ExookiZ wrote:
you obviosuly havent been in c5s for a while. If the C5 is occupied it has about a 80% chance of being occupied by a inactive/Farming corp that does nothing but run sites and log off. For a nullbear you complain an oawful lot about people in C6s.

As i stated in my last post ally our whining about us evicting other WH corps is complete nonsense. Are farming corps burned and razed? yup, all the time. and nothing of value was lost. I am not aware of any true WH corps being bullied out of C5 space.

Even if some are, suck it up, my corporation built it's way up to where we were, we werent babied, we got whelped plenty of times by other WH corps, lost towers, paid ransoms, had to start from scratch a couple times. I am not sure why lately eve being the way it is is being blamed on us. Nothing has changed it has been this way since apocrypha, there are larger organized Wh corps and there are smaller fledgeling ones working on getting there. The difference is those willign to keep striving to improve, rather than cry to ccp that theyre losing to corps better than them.


Rather i believe the issue simply lies with C1-C4 making too much money/being tooe asy if they dont think the isk in C5/C6 space is worth the risk and additional PVP. If things were balanced people would be trying to mvoe up here. I tisnt theyre trying and getting killed, usually theya rent trying at all. I have talked with tell me that what C5/C6 space has to offer over what they ahve now sint worth it to them, to the risk/Reward doesnt scale well over the systems.


There is many ways to kill farmers but i am not here to teach you those, i actually never complain about people in C6's until they start to sperge on forums thinking that their space is empty from the fault of CCP and at that point the shirly kid needed some correction and a history lesson.

The middle part of your post is geez i don't know what but you should stop typing random thoughts.

Do you really believe C1-4 space makes too much ISK? Really? Have you ever actually lived in one? I can happily say i have lived in many of the lower class holes and they are not where they should be.

The only people in low class holes i think are making too much isk are those in C4's and that is only from the closed off nature of C4 chains, you only go to a C4 for isk and no other reason.

The only part of low class Wh's that is on par with the isk/risk /investment is C1's but a lot of low SP can't get into any of those or hope to evict some of the massive factory systems that occupy all the decent C1's.

C2 is static dependent for isk and no sane person can live in a C2 with a C2 static and think they are better off then HS.

C3's that are inhabited by more then 1 person need to really try learn some more math skills to think they are better off living in one.

C5/6 can make an easy 30B per week with very little amount of hours invested by a guy with a few alts or a very tiny group of people, hence your massive farming problem. But please tell me more how you think C1-4's make too much isk i'm sure with your ideas WH space will fill up fast...