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[Odyssey 1.1] Dominix bonus change

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#321 - 2013-08-13 19:27:09 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

I hope you're not comparing long range weapons with short range;

Raven, 6x T2 CMLs with Fury: 507DPS
Abaddon, 8x T2 Megabeams (good luck fitting Tachys) with IN Multi: 485 DPS
Megathron: 7x T2 425mm Rails with CN AM 429 DPS

Etc.

Not to mention that the Domi's Gardes currently have over 3x better tracking than the Mega's 425mms and better optimal to boot.

tl;dr: Nice try, son.


I hope you are not comparing Gardes to a long range system. Their base optimal is 20k'ish, and their fall off is like 5. Their closest comparable turret probably is pulse lasers, except they can be shot out of space and can't move.

Pulses occupy an odd point in the lineup. They get ranges comparable to long range weapons, with tracking and damage associated with short range weapons.

Sentries as a whole are effectively a long range system, gardes functioning like the short range ammo for that group. Their base range is 24km by the time you can use them and their falloff is actually 12km.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#322 - 2013-08-13 20:17:34 UTC
Why nerf range also if application is the issue? I'd much rather have a tracking bonus lower than the Ishtar's for a range bonus that is higher, so they can at least differ in more than ship class and tank.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
DominionZ
The Merit Talon Equity Research Group
#323 - 2013-08-14 02:20:03 UTC
Not to concerned with the balancing. However between Sisi and Tranq with the same RR fit I went from -170.1 GJ/s on Tranq to -264.8 GJ/s on Sisi. Looks like you messed with more than just drone bonus on the Dominix.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#324 - 2013-08-14 02:38:39 UTC
DominionZ wrote:
Not to concerned with the balancing. However between Sisi and Tranq with the same RR fit I went from -170.1 GJ/s on Tranq to -264.8 GJ/s on Sisi. Looks like you messed with more than just drone bonus on the Dominix.

That would be really odd as there isn't anything on the domi that should be effecting cap usage.
DominionZ
The Merit Talon Equity Research Group
#325 - 2013-08-14 03:07:47 UTC  |  Edited by: DominionZ
I would agree but something has been changed. i'll post link of both fitting windows.

http://i.imgur.com/Q552ltf.jpg Tranq Fit

http://i.imgur.com/PIvc8nF.jpg Sisi Fit

Sisi fit shows i have 16 less cap and almost 2s more recharge but the major diff is the Excess cap recharge rate is so different.
Also show's i have less CPU and Power grid.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#326 - 2013-08-14 03:19:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
DominionZ wrote:
I would agree but something has been changed. i'll post link of both fitting windows.

http://i.imgur.com/Q552ltf.jpg Tranq Fit

http://i.imgur.com/PIvc8nF.jpg Sisi Fit

Sisi fit shows i have 16 less cap and almost 2s more recharge but the major diff is the Excess cap recharge rate is so different.
Also show's i have less CPU and Power grid.

Not sure there, but perchance do you have hardwires on TQ but not on sisi? It's the only thing I can think of that may account for both the cap and minor PG/CPU variances in the screenshots. Or maybe skill differences?

I guess the easiest way to tell would be to look at the base ship stats and compare directly between the 2.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#327 - 2013-08-14 05:48:42 UTC
The last thing we need is a nerf to cap transfers.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Taiyan Chork
Evil.Corp
#328 - 2013-08-14 07:34:47 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
We are going to put a small change in for 1.1:

Dominix's drone tracking and optimal range bonus lowered from 10% per level to 7.5% per level.

This brings the bonus in line with all other damage application bonuses we give, such as turret tracking bonuses or missile explosion velocity/radius bonuses. The Dominix hasn't been oppressively powerful but it is extremely strong and there is no need for the over-allocation with regards to this bonus.

In case some of you think this is a reaction to the way the Domi performed in the alliance tournament, I can tell you that we will never make balance decisions based on that environment. The tournament certainly highlighted the strengths of sentry drones and damps, which are both powerful on TQ as well, but it removed many of their drawbacks and so it is not an effective way to assess balance or power in normal EVE.


I think aligning the tracking bonuses of fundamental different weapon systems is wrong. Especially with the reason that every other weapon system has this ratio of bonuses. Since both missiles and turrets have a skill to compensate for explosive velocity and tracking.

One solution is to remove all drone capacity from all ships, but drone ships, then it would be fair game. And removing turret slots from drone ships (but that would affect everyone, so that is not accepted by people).

Another solution would be to make a Drone Motion Predication skill, which grants 5% bonus to tracking speed pr. level with a training multiplier of 2x using Memory and Perception as all other drone skills.

Besides that, it is still not possible to 1) improve drone falloff 2) improve drone rate of fire. So please do not tell me the weapon systems have to be aligned.

My two cents and maybe a nickel.
SidtheKid100
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#329 - 2013-08-14 11:09:04 UTC
Luscius Uta wrote:
Sounds like a fair change. But, why there's still a tracking bonus on Stabber Fleet Issue not in line with other ships?


Going to bring this to attention.

If you're going to reduce the tracking bonus on the Domi because you want to "bring it in line" with all the other tracking bonuses in the game, shouldn't CCP be adjusting the SFI's bonus as well?

If the tracking bonus on the SFI isn't adjusted as well, I find this as compelling evidence that the change was heavily influenced by the Alliance Tourney. The Domi's performance in it is the real reason CCP is making this change, and not to bring the bonus in line as stated.

I don't always post on the forums, but when I do, I prefer posting with my main.
uyguhb
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#330 - 2013-08-14 11:20:42 UTC
Why nerf range also if application is the issue? I'd much rather have a tracking bonus lower than the Ishtar's for a range bonus that is higher, so they can at least differ in more than ship class and tank.
amurder Hakomairos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#331 - 2013-08-14 11:35:58 UTC
Another huge disadvantage to sentries as a long range weapon system is the fact that unlike other long range weapons which can engage out to your ship's full target lock range unless you start filling your high slots with drone links your "long range" drones aren't even going to engage a target more that 50something KM away.

But at this point it seems we are basically pissing into the ocean because the changes are on the test server and Rise hasn't made even a comment for days much less provide some actual evidence to justify this change.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#332 - 2013-08-14 11:42:39 UTC
amurder Hakomairos wrote:
Another huge disadvantage to sentries as a long range weapon system is the fact that unlike other long range weapons which can engage out to your ship's full target lock range unless you start filling your high slots with drone links your "long range" drones aren't even going to engage a target more that 50something KM away.

But at this point it seems we are basically pissing into the ocean because the changes are on the test server and Rise hasn't made even a comment for days much less provide some actual evidence to justify this change.


use link augmentors and get ewar drone interfacing towards V.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#333 - 2013-08-14 11:47:06 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Sentries as a whole are effectively a long range system, gardes functioning like the short range ammo for that group. Their base range is 24km by the time you can use them and their falloff is actually 12km.


Wonder if any battleship weapon platform should be able to one-volley a t1 frig at 70k. Using shortest range ammo at 70k... or way worse, being able to track ewar frigs at ~100k using curators.
Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Ixion Defence Systems
#334 - 2013-08-14 11:59:28 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Sentries as a whole are effectively a long range system, gardes functioning like the short range ammo for that group. Their base range is 24km by the time you can use them and their falloff is actually 12km.


Wonder if any battleship weapon platform should be able to one-volley a t1 frig at 70k. Using shortest range ammo at 70k... or way worse, being able to track ewar frigs at ~100k using curators.

If I throw a bomb towards the general direction of any other battleship, will I take out his guns or missile launchers?

Maybe I can target each missile bay/turret individually and shoot them with my drones?

Drones have a tradeoff for being able to do what you have posted.
amurder Hakomairos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#335 - 2013-08-14 12:49:36 UTC  |  Edited by: amurder Hakomairos
Lloyd Roses wrote:
amurder Hakomairos wrote:
Another huge disadvantage to sentries as a long range weapon system is the fact that unlike other long range weapons which can engage out to your ship's full target lock range unless you start filling your high slots with drone links your "long range" drones aren't even going to engage a target more that 50something KM away.

But at this point it seems we are basically pissing into the ocean because the changes are on the test server and Rise hasn't made even a comment for days much less provide some actual evidence to justify this change.


use link augmentors and get ewar drone interfacing towards V.


Yes, I know this (and said it in my post). But ewar interfacing 5 wont get you over 60km and every drone link you fit is -1 high slot which means less additional DPS you can fit.

The point is a long range turret/missile can shoot as far (or further) than your ship can lock. Long range drones don't have that luxury without fitting additional mods.
Haradgrim
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#336 - 2013-08-14 13:10:18 UTC
Mithrantir Ob'lontra wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Sentries as a whole are effectively a long range system, gardes functioning like the short range ammo for that group. Their base range is 24km by the time you can use them and their falloff is actually 12km.


Wonder if any battleship weapon platform should be able to one-volley a t1 frig at 70k. Using shortest range ammo at 70k... or way worse, being able to track ewar frigs at ~100k using curators.

If I throw a bomb towards the general direction of any other battleship, will I take out his guns or missile launchers?

Maybe I can target each missile bay/turret individually and shoot them with my drones?

Drones have a tradeoff for being able to do what you have posted.


They have a lot of advantages similarly. Can any other BS weapon class effectively switch sizes (which a domi can do by deploying light/med/heavy/etc) or roles mid fight? Yes drones are vulnerable to bombs but you also aren't carrying a single flight of them.

The Domi will still be one of the best BS after the nerf, which if anything is the best indicator that this change was warranted.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#337 - 2013-08-14 13:18:00 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Sentries as a whole are effectively a long range system, gardes functioning like the short range ammo for that group. Their base range is 24km by the time you can use them and their falloff is actually 12km.


Wonder if any battleship weapon platform should be able to one-volley a t1 frig at 70k. Using shortest range ammo at 70k... or way worse, being able to track ewar frigs at ~100k using curators.


That is something I have done with 1400mm arties with quake as well as 425mm rails with Javelin.

So yes.

As a hint, its a lot easier for BS weapons to hit at 70km, the angular comes down to where they can actually hit.
DominionZ
The Merit Talon Equity Research Group
#338 - 2013-08-14 14:39:25 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
DominionZ wrote:
I would agree but something has been changed. i'll post link of both fitting windows.

http://i.imgur.com/Q552ltf.jpg Tranq Fit

http://i.imgur.com/PIvc8nF.jpg Sisi Fit

Sisi fit shows i have 16 less cap and almost 2s more recharge but the major diff is the Excess cap recharge rate is so different.
Also show's i have less CPU and Power grid.

Not sure there, but perchance do you have hardwires on TQ but not on sisi? It's the only thing I can think of that may account for both the cap and minor PG/CPU variances in the screenshots. Or maybe skill differences?

I guess the easiest way to tell would be to look at the base ship stats and compare directly between the 2.


Unfortunatly a few in my corp also have the same issue. Same fits, same skills, same implants, and same result. Something has been changed either by mistake or intentionally.
Sajuk'ar
Papil Babla LLC
#339 - 2013-08-14 17:56:00 UTC
:ccp:
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#340 - 2013-08-14 21:40:54 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

I hope you're not comparing long range weapons with short range;

Raven, 6x T2 CMLs with Fury: 507DPS
Abaddon, 8x T2 Megabeams (good luck fitting Tachys) with IN Multi: 485 DPS
Megathron: 7x T2 425mm Rails with CN AM 429 DPS

Etc.

Not to mention that the Domi's Gardes currently have over 3x better tracking than the Mega's 425mms and better optimal to boot.

tl;dr: Nice try, son.


I hope you are not comparing Gardes to a long range system. Their base optimal is 20k'ish, and their fall off is like 5. Their closest comparable turret probably is pulse lasers, except they can be shot out of space and can't move.

Pulses occupy an odd point in the lineup. They get ranges comparable to long range weapons, with tracking and damage associated with short range weapons.

Sentries as a whole are effectively a long range system, gardes functioning like the short range ammo for that group. Their base range is 24km by the time you can use them and their falloff is actually 12km.



Either way, Gardes are fine. They are directly comparable to Pulse Lasers, except for the differences between sentries and turrets. They can be stretched out to enormous ranges for their damage, but only with the dedication of a specific ship, multiple mid slots, at least one high slot, and a rig or two. I daresay you would see similar results if you did the same for Pulse Lasers, except you have more options and flexibility in the use of the lasers.