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[Odyssey 1.1] Iteration on Ore Prospecting Array sites

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Author
Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#41 - 2013-08-15 03:21:57 UTC
Xequecal wrote:


This might be completely stupid as I have no experience with this, but why not mine until you have enough Mex to build whatever it is you want to build and then JF the excess other mineral types to high sec to sell?






Herein lies the problem;

There isn't enough ore that contains mexallon to mine like you're suggesting, period. It's become so rare in null-sec that completely mining out just the ore that contains mex in a system means spending more time jumping from site to site (not belts since its not there) to mine it than you do mining .....




Better balancing of the ores since the changes in materials needed in blueprints since Odyssey came out hasn't happened, and this is why people are complaining.
Sirius Deinhardt
Money Crew
#42 - 2013-08-16 01:54:40 UTC
Quote:
Xequecal wrote:


This might be completely stupid as I have no experience with this, but why not mine until you have enough Mex to build whatever it is you want to build and then JF the excess other mineral types to high sec to sell?



.... and send the value of half the types of minerals off the bottom of the charts! Mineral prices would tank. Trit would be practically worthless.. That said Johanna Outeston has pointed out a big problem about the number of JF needed and how mex makes it looks ridiculous but I absolutely do not think the solution is to up mex in null making null industry entirely independent from high.

How about upping the amount of mex available in High while bumping it's raw volume down a bit? This way hisec miners can mine to their hearts delight and gives them ONE thing over null (lol)(this is good), null doesn't get to be totally independent (this is good), and the JF problem is significantly lessened (this is good).

Fozzie?... I like you
exxon halliburton
i'm from the government and i'm here to help
#43 - 2013-08-17 23:28:21 UTC  |  Edited by: exxon halliburton
how about putting a rorqual in a pos shield one jump outside of high sec and compress plagioclase? then JF compressed plag from there? I'm an industry noob but wouldn't that more efficiently get u the mex you need?

also infrared XL looks pretty good at mex compression
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/compression/index.php?typeid=36
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#44 - 2013-08-18 11:01:25 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Johanna Outeston wrote:
OK, I had a hard time following the other parts of your post due to :Wall of test: so i will answer what i sure is your response

OK, assuming you build a Nyx, you need roughly 87mil Mex - if you mine the rest of the minerals in a semi normal manner you will end with the rest of the minerals but have about 20-25mil Mex, so you can go to Jita and buy 65 mil mex and use 2-3 JF and jump them to where you are building your Nyx. This will cost roughly 100-200mil in jump fuel on average, maybe a bit more if you are isolated. That all comes out of your profit. Not terrible but doable

NOW, Build an Avatar, you need 330mil Mex, assuming the same scenarion and you mine, you will end up with roughly 100mil Mex, so you have to go to Jita and but 230mil Mex and JF it out. That will be 8-9 JF loads and an additional cost of about a Billion ISK, plus a crap ton of time.

Now, do this 2-3 times a month and you will understand how stupid this is.

Now, old method was go to jita and buy ALL materials required to build and compress to 425 rail guns, ammo and other things.
You can fit an ENTIRE Nyx into 1.5 Jf and an ENTIRE Avatar into 7.3 JF, but under the new method it takes 8-9 JF load of raw mex to suppplement what you mine in Nullsec.

So, basically mining the minerals in null sec now requires MORE JF runs just for raw Mex than it did before for all the minerals combined in compressed form.



This might be completely stupid as I have no experience with this, but why not mine until you have enough Mex to build whatever it is you want to build and then JF the excess other mineral types to high sec to sell?


I don't usually agree with opinions from the nul-sec community but I'm afraid Johanna is correct. The current situation is a cack-up on CCP's part and as they generally don't remove major changes that are wrong we are stuck with the present situation.
1) At the request of the nullsec industrial community CCP amended the rocks to add more tritanium & I think pyrite as well. While I was at Fanfest 2013 as the news of this broke everyone was immediately saying there would be a lack of mexallon in null and this has proved to be the case.
2) CCP do not want to make regions independent of other regions so null sec will not get more mexallon added. Likewise high sec will not get Morphite or Megacyte added. To my mind this is how it should remain.
3) Therefore adding the extra Tritanium & Pyerite to nullsec rocks has not fixed the perceived 'problem' of minerals having to be JF'ed into nullsec. The old method of compression and reprocessing is still more efficient and will continue to be the method used.
4) As a by-product the addition of extra Tritanium & Pyerite to nullsec,which is effectively a nuisance to nullsec, has decreased the value of Tritinium & Pyerite for miners in high sec. So no one wins from this change.

CCP should have had the forethought to realise without adding more Mexallon to nullsec, which their policy of anti-independence would forbid, that adding more Tritanium & Pyerite to nullsec was a bad idea all round. Sad

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .

Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#45 - 2013-08-18 11:09:22 UTC
exxon halliburton wrote:
how about putting a rorqual in a pos shield one jump outside of high sec and compress plagioclase? then JF compressed plag from there? I'm an industry noob but wouldn't that more efficiently get u the mex you need?

also infrared XL looks pretty good at mex compression
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/compression/index.php?typeid=36


I'm no expert but this sounds like possibly a good idea Johanna? I expect there might be some defensive/wardec problems arising from it though?

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .

Johanna Outeston
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#46 - 2013-08-18 20:26:07 UTC
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
exxon halliburton wrote:
how about putting a rorqual in a pos shield one jump outside of high sec and compress plagioclase? then JF compressed plag from there? I'm an industry noob but wouldn't that more efficiently get u the mex you need?

also infrared XL looks pretty good at mex compression
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/compression/index.php?typeid=36


I'm no expert but this sounds like possibly a good idea Johanna? I expect there might be some defensive/wardec problems arising from it though?



Except 2 small things

Isogen, which is kinda OK, but again it is more of a waste of time to JF it back to high sec considering the amount of isk it costs to jump

megacyte - tons of it, which mainly only increases the price of what it takes to do business as yu can recycle it back to HS and use it again.

To give you an idea, I have both a computer model and a spreadsheet with the following items at my disposal:
Purg Torps
Doon Torp
Thor Torp
1600mm plates
Fusion XL
Infrared XL
100mn MWD
350mm rails
425mm rails
800mm artillery


The computer model make the most efficient compression with the least waste and least amount of leftover.

99% of the time 425 rails and Fusion XL wins, with leftover Iso and Raw Zydrine and Nocx left to carry

I know a lot of people want to help but until you have looked at buying materials for 1-2 Titans and a few SC and getting them to Null, you just don't understand the magnitude

Consider my buy this weekend was :
6.9 Billion trit
1.7 Bil pyrite
600mil Mex
102mil Iso
29mil Nocx
5 mil Zydrine
2.6mil Mega

It will take me approx. 5 weeks just to compress it and it will take 15 JF runs to get all that to Nullsec.

Every JF run I do I bring along as much extra Mex as I can fit in the nook and crannies, just to help build regular ships

Halada
Praxian Theory
#47 - 2013-08-23 01:50:20 UTC
I love how timely my return is... first changes to mining in years.
Johanna Outeston
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#48 - 2013-08-23 02:03:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Johanna Outeston
Halada wrote:
I love how timely my return is... first changes to mining in years.



Years:

Ore frigate miner
No longer racial frigates/cruisers with mining bonus
MASSIVE Exhumer buffs
T2 mining links
Rorqual from 5% to 10% - This was a long time ago
Grav sites from iHUB upgrades no longer require probes
Buff to size of grav sites from iHUB's
Ore composition

This has all happened before this patch over the past 2 years

All this post is doing is tweaking the makeup of grav sites
Halada
Praxian Theory
#49 - 2013-08-23 02:55:34 UTC
I was being sarcastic. I still get emails that thank me for a guide I wrote half a decade ago, which I assume means it is still relevant.

Aside the venture, there really isn't anything new since I left 3-4 years ago. There's been changes and tweaks, but the fact supercap production is still such a major pain all these years later is a clear sign that industry requires some serious attention.

It used to be passive targeters were best to compress, now from what I read in this thread it's rails. And this proposed has left a gap for mex, forcing a ridiculous amount jumps and fuel expenditures.

My guess is CCP cares little about the complexities of the logistics behind supercap building, since, realistically, they represent a tiny fraction of the playerbase. So tiny, it's probably less than 1%. Last time I was building supercaps, I had 6 accounts and a 15 characters to run the logistics of it. It's ridiculous, but it's how it is, and it's part of the challenge.

Still, spending a billion in ISK in fuel just to move a single type of mineral appears like an oversight to me and not a game design.

It used to be, back in the days, that the only thing worth mining in nullsec were high-ends, which you'd export to jita for sale, then buy the low-ends you needed, compress them, and ship them back up. With a 40% refinery and the proper skills, you incurred zero loss with the refine.

Now, from what I understand, they adjusted mineral per ore rations to make them worth mining in nullsec, but there's still not enough mex, and there's no modules out there that efficiently compresses mex.

The quick band-aid solution is to create a new module, or change the requirements of a module, to allow for mex compression.

Long term, they should alter the min ratios to fix this.

Let's not kid ourselves, though: relieving the pain and suffering of the few supercap builders in the game is probably very low priority for CCP.
Johanna Outeston
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#50 - 2013-08-24 01:35:57 UTC
Halada wrote:
I was being sarcastic. I still get emails that thank me for a guide I wrote half a decade ago, which I assume means it is still relevant.

Aside the venture, there really isn't anything new since I left 3-4 years ago. There's been changes and tweaks, but the fact supercap production is still such a major pain all these years later is a clear sign that industry requires some serious attention.

It used to be passive targeters were best to compress, now from what I read in this thread it's rails. And this proposed has left a gap for mex, forcing a ridiculous amount jumps and fuel expenditures.

My guess is CCP cares little about the complexities of the logistics behind supercap building, since, realistically, they represent a tiny fraction of the playerbase. So tiny, it's probably less than 1%. Last time I was building supercaps, I had 6 accounts and a 15 characters to run the logistics of it. It's ridiculous, but it's how it is, and it's part of the challenge.

Still, spending a billion in ISK in fuel just to move a single type of mineral appears like an oversight to me and not a game design.

It used to be, back in the days, that the only thing worth mining in nullsec were high-ends, which you'd export to jita for sale, then buy the low-ends you needed, compress them, and ship them back up. With a 40% refinery and the proper skills, you incurred zero loss with the refine.

Now, from what I understand, they adjusted mineral per ore rations to make them worth mining in nullsec, but there's still not enough mex, and there's no modules out there that efficiently compresses mex.

The quick band-aid solution is to create a new module, or change the requirements of a module, to allow for mex compression.

Long term, they should alter the min ratios to fix this.

Let's not kid ourselves, though: relieving the pain and suffering of the few supercap builders in the game is probably very low priority for CCP.


You hit the nail on the head.....but it isn't just SC builders...

Large Alliances need a fleet of Rokh's, Maelstrom's or Megathron's.

They can build them in high sec and JF them to the front lines, at 7 per JF that takes a long time to get 250 BS to the right place.

It is quicker and easier to build them there, but again you can't mine at home and build them as the requirements for BS are roughly the same ratio as capital components.

So, in order to build almost anything in sufficient quantity for a large alliance, you are starving for Mex, it is also the only mineral not currently trending down in price.
Stocki Stock
Intercosmic Fruit Company
#51 - 2013-08-24 05:48:26 UTC
No worries. Null is on a good way to get independent from Highsecimports. It only takes time. CCP can't do it at once, it would people screw to much.
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#52 - 2013-08-24 17:05:47 UTC
CCP Fozzie has confirmed they will NOT be adding more Mexalon to nullsec rocks. Sorry.

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .

Stocki Stock
Intercosmic Fruit Company
#53 - 2013-08-24 17:55:48 UTC
"I have had no Sexual relationship to this woman."

"Niemand hat die Absicht, eine Mauer zu errichten."

"Die Rente ist sicher."
Johanna Outeston
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#54 - 2013-08-24 22:16:16 UTC
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
CCP Fozzie has confirmed they will NOT be adding more Mexalon to nullsec rocks. Sorry.



Never a doubt in my mind
Light Combat Drone
Bearded BattleBears
#55 - 2013-08-25 19:35:07 UTC
What about tweaking the ore compression and maybe making it possible to use a new POS module (even in hisec) to compress ores. This would reduce the burden on inter-regional trade while keeping regions distinct.

Alternately how about an ore JF that has a large ore / mineral bay (say ~1M m3), but a much smaller general cargo (say 10k m3 like a carrier)?
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#56 - 2013-08-26 05:03:18 UTC
Stocki Stock wrote:
No worries. Null is on a good way to get independent from Highsecimports. It only takes time. CCP can't do it at once, it would people screw to much.


You seriously think that anyone in null sec cares if high sec is gutted?
Null sec has been lobbying for, with great effect, for years, the eventual destruction of any high sec profitability.

The ice and ore swindle was just the latest, and these upcoming changes are just a continuation of it.
Read the goon post where he openly discusses the removal of T2 industry from high sec.
That is supposedly not been discussed openly, but a member of the goons knows about it, and cares not who else knows.

goons need renters to feed their ISK wants, a lot of renters.
Only way that happens is if CCP continues trashing high sec.
Some will quit Eve. Others, the ones that the goons want, will migrate to null, where these new serfs will be paying huge tithes ti the new aristocrats.
Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#57 - 2013-08-26 07:13:43 UTC
Light Combat Drone wrote:
What about tweaking the ore compression and maybe making it possible to use a new POS module (even in hisec) to compress ores. This would reduce the burden on inter-regional trade while keeping regions distinct.

Alternately how about an ore JF that has a large ore / mineral bay (say ~1M m3), but a much smaller general cargo (say 10k m3 like a carrier)?



This would require them to deal with the problems we currently have with towers, and CCP isn't addressing it either.


See a trend, do you?
zyalino
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2013-08-29 21:02:56 UTC
uhm, not sure if this the right place to ask, but, where could i get a listing of the composition of the belts?

the best i could find is:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=109125

but i sais, that it's 13 omber asteroids, while:

CCP Fozzie wrote:


Enormous Asteroid Cluser (formerly known as Extra Large Asteroid Cluser):
Convert all 12 Omber asteroids to Hedbergite (500,000 units)


so, i am unsure if this pdf is uptodate/correct.

and
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Gravimetric_Site_List
isn't any help at all.


for the other discussion:
that idea of specialized ore sites in low and npc.0 (that one has to scan down), i like that - but yep, that wouldn't help you nullsec-rvb folks.

make it that each sec has it's ore specialty.
trit to hs
mex to ls
morph to ns
some other stuff to npc.0

i mean, after all, trading is a major part of the game. isn't it?

whatever

Johanna Outeston
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#59 - 2013-08-30 11:50:50 UTC
zyalino wrote:
uhm, not sure if this the right place to ask, but, where could i get a listing of the composition of the belts?

the best i could find is:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=109125

but i sais, that it's 13 omber asteroids, while:

CCP Fozzie wrote:


Enormous Asteroid Cluser (formerly known as Extra Large Asteroid Cluser):
Convert all 12 Omber asteroids to Hedbergite (500,000 units)


so, i am unsure if this pdf is uptodate/correct.

and
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Gravimetric_Site_List
isn't any help at all.


for the other discussion:
that idea of specialized ore sites in low and npc.0 (that one has to scan down), i like that - but yep, that wouldn't help you nullsec-rvb folks.

make it that each sec has it's ore specialty.
trit to hs
mex to ls
morph to ns
some other stuff to npc.0

i mean, after all, trading is a major part of the game. isn't it?



https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=109125
Johanna Outeston
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#60 - 2013-08-30 11:52:10 UTC
Someone needs to look at the patch notes for Odyssey 1.1, they are all ****** up

Quote:

Exploration & Deadspace

Some Elite Frigates have been removed from Sanctums and replaced by NPC Battlecruisers to increase the isk gain and reduce the time they take to complete for battleships. For real this time.
Changes have been made to the ore composition of some Ore Prospecting Array anomalies to better balance their relative values:
- Large Asteroid Clusters: Converted both Scordite asteroids to Plagioclase (300,000 units).
- Enormous Asteroid Clusters (formerly known as Extra Large Asteroid Cluster): Converted all 12 Omber asteroids to Hedbergite (500,000 units).
- Colossal Asteroid Clusters (formerly known as Giant Asteroid Cluster): Converted all 6 Pyroxeres asteroids to Hemorphite (480,000 units).
For systems with truesec between -0.0 and -0.44:
- All ores in the Large, Enormous (formerly X-Large), and Collosal (formerly Giant) clusters will be the +5% upgraded variants.
Selecting another mini container whilst in the process of collecting one now queues it up for automatic collection. When queued up, the mini containers icon will flash.