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[Odyssey 1.1] Iteration on Ore Prospecting Array sites

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Author
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#21 - 2013-08-08 21:46:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Unforgiven Storm
once again I leave this here http://thelazypilot.wordpress.com/2013/06/05/ore-mining-in-null-security-still-needs-changes/

I see it coming for months now. Mex is a bottleneck and Ore sites are all unbalanced.

Do something about it now don't wait for things to crash down the road to act when is too late.

I care about this issue a lot, please listen to me, listen to these guys posting in this thread, we know what we are talking about.

Help us help you help us all! :-)

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)

Deirdre Anethoel
Objectif Licorne
#22 - 2013-08-09 08:01:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Deirdre Anethoel
This changes create a major problem for me. It's going to make "risky mining" (aka mining outside of highsec) a sovereignty nullsec only thing, while some NPC regions are harder to live in and should really be viable for mining too.

I'm especially thinking about remote areas in outer ring, since ORE settled the region (but it could apply to other npc regions with vast empty chunks of space without stations, like great wildlands), it should be a dream place for miners. But in fact, it's not, outside of one or two systems, because you can't put upgrades, so you have to chase for ore sites around a lot more. And now, when you'll get them, they won't even be as good. Having to move towards the ore sites seems fair for npc nullsec, but having them being worse AND rarer than in any upgraded nullsec, while being in very hard to live regions (outer ring has only two stations with decent station services, and you can find yourself being very far away from them, plus anyone can deploy in those, so you most likely live in a pos).

So yeah, if you could at least consider buffing ore spawning (sites, belts, whatever) in those regions to give them a reason to be there (there is none right now, unless you just want the position of the stations, the vast empty space around is pretty useless). It seems fitting for me that empty, uninhabited space would have large stocks of unexploited ore. Especially since it attracted ORE themselves.

Mining in dangerous places should not be a sov only option, it's already safer in sov nullsec (because you own the place, and because you don't have to move around if you don't want to), and already gives more money (you don't have to worry about finding sites, so more time to mine).
Gieriger Fuchs
German Corps of Engineers 17
Federation of Respect Honor Passion Alliance.
#23 - 2013-08-09 08:05:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Gieriger Fuchs
ccp you know what you do with systems they are have a Sec Stat below 0,45 is now ****

Make it independent from the Mininglevel.

Level 1 (Small) no changes

Level 2 (Medium) bigger Value of the Oretypes

Level 3 (Large) the Changes,transform Omber to Hedbergite ,are okay and the other ore should be more value

Level 4 (X-Large) bigger Value of ore

Level 5 (Giant) need no changes why,this belt is so rare.

And ccp ,please play your own game!!!!!!!! WHY???? what is going on with Miners they "follow" the new Ores? right ,they will flood the Systems with higher truesec.And than are Miners and Ratters are all in in the same System...thats so simple!!! .ccp makes the Systems with a TS Status below 0.4 more useless.Than can ccp delete this systems from the Server too


Make it independent from the Mininglevel. More mined Ore= more Ore in a Belt.Thats a simple bill !!!!

And a second request, make not everthing independed from the Truesec,Eve is more than Truesec!!!!
And forgot this **** idea with all the +5% and +10% Variation,i need not more Compression bpc´s in my Hangar!!!

greeting from Germany

oooh and another EDIT: the same should makes with the ice.Per Mininglevel should 500 Unit more ice inside the Belt
Das Aivo
Chemical Redox
#24 - 2013-08-09 09:29:05 UTC
This is all fine and dandy but does nothing to promote industry in null you will still have to import mex as before. anyone actually trying to mine for isk/hr is a fool. the money in null mining is for production.
Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#25 - 2013-08-09 14:05:14 UTC
Unforgiven Storm wrote:
once again I leave this here http://thelazypilot.wordpress.com/2013/06/05/ore-mining-in-null-security-still-needs-changes/

I see it coming for months now. Mex is a bottleneck and Ore sites are all unbalanced.

Do something about it now don't wait for things to crash down the road to act when is too late.

I care about this issue a lot, please listen to me, listen to these guys posting in this thread, we know what we are talking about.

Help us help you help us all! :-)



This!

There is a huge balance issue, especially with mexallon right now that no one seems to be addressing.
Johanna Outeston
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#26 - 2013-08-09 20:22:23 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Importing Mex is still a lot easier than importing all the low-ends before Odyssey, and you'll need to import a little less of it now. We may make more significant changes later, but we're still observing.


NO, it is much much worse now, you can't import just Mex, except raw, and well, that is about batshit stupid. You are better off not mining at all and just importing from high sec. less wastage and the same amount of work.


CCP Fozzie wrote:
Like I said before, we haven't ruled out adjusting the mineral ratios more significantly but we're also not committed to the idea that any one area of space needs to be completely independent from others.


One area of space does control the Mex - High sec

There might be more mined in nullsec overall, but making big ships requires a lot more than we can realistically mine, so it HAS to come from high sec.


Listen, I don't care if you make all the belt more or less isk/hr or make them bigger or smaller, just PLEASE balance them. But, do remember Nullsec does supply all of the Mega/Morphite in the game, as well as the majority of Nocx and iso. So, when I sat balance, I mainly mean Trit/Pye/Mex


Feel free to use that spreadsheet as a guide, it is spot on and tells the whole story and how much we have to mine just to get the Mex required.




There is another way: and I am spitballing here.....reduce Mex usage in building LOL - hehe - OK, back to work, funs over
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#27 - 2013-08-10 08:46:49 UTC
Johanna Outeston wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Importing Mex is still a lot easier than importing all the low-ends before Odyssey, and you'll need to import a little less of it now. We may make more significant changes later, but we're still observing.


NO, it is much much worse now, you can't import just Mex, except raw, and well, that is about batshit stupid. You are better off not mining at all and just importing from high sec. less wastage and the same amount of work.


CCP Fozzie wrote:
Like I said before, we haven't ruled out adjusting the mineral ratios more significantly but we're also not committed to the idea that any one area of space needs to be completely independent from others.


One area of space does control the Mex - High sec

There might be more mined in nullsec overall, but making big ships requires a lot more than we can realistically mine, so it HAS to come from high sec.


Listen, I don't care if you make all the belt more or less isk/hr or make them bigger or smaller, just PLEASE balance them. But, do remember Nullsec does supply all of the Mega/Morphite in the game, as well as the majority of Nocx and iso. So, when I sat balance, I mainly mean Trit/Pye/Mex


Feel free to use that spreadsheet as a guide, it is spot on and tells the whole story and how much we have to mine just to get the Mex required.




There is another way: and I am spitballing here.....reduce Mex usage in building LOL - hehe - OK, back to work, funs over


They should leave it alone, so what if you have to buy what you need or go to hs to mine it? If CCP are gonna continue to give in to this bullshit then hs should get Megacyte/Morphite to balance it as well...Nobody makes anyone go to null, but everyone who does seems to do sod all but whine about how hard done by they are, tough, live with it and stop crying.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Johanna Outeston
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#28 - 2013-08-10 12:49:42 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
They should leave it alone, so what if you have to buy what you need or go to hs to mine it? If CCP are gonna continue to give in to this bullshit then hs should get Megacyte/Morphite to balance it as well...Nobody makes anyone go to null, but everyone who does seems to do sod all but whine about how hard done by they are, tough, live with it and stop crying.



You need to go re read the original posts for Odyssey, and then take the OP of this thread in context. CCP are trying to make one area not dependent on others etc for industry and mining. Mega/Morphite are the obvious exceptions. They are also trying to semi stop the practice of buying all mins in Jita and compressing just to jump to nullsec and reprocess. I have built several Aeons and other stuff, just importing 6 JF full of Raw Mex. If that is how they want it, fine, but somehow I don't think so.
We are trying to help them get there.

If you have nothing to contribute to this effort ---> Door is that way

Thanks
Herbinator d'Arcadie
Arkadian Knight
#29 - 2013-08-10 20:56:42 UTC
Johanna Outeston wrote:
... There is another way: and I am spitballing here.....reduce Mex usage in building ...

Over the last year Mex has lost almost 1/2 its value (60-35 in high-sec) making mining in high-sec a frustrating occupation. Reducing demand would make the mineral nearly redundant and HS-mining no fun at all. It's (semi-permanent) low price should be more than offsetting those pesky transport hassles.

"Block" pigs. Refuse to fly with them.

Johanna Outeston
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#30 - 2013-08-11 01:06:27 UTC
Herbinator d'Arcadie wrote:
Johanna Outeston wrote:
... There is another way: and I am spitballing here.....reduce Mex usage in building ...

Over the last year Mex has lost almost 1/2 its value (60-35 in high-sec) making mining in high-sec a frustrating occupation. Reducing demand would make the mineral nearly redundant and HS-mining no fun at all. It's (semi-permanent) low price should be more than offsetting those pesky transport hassles.



Hmm, sorry, was my /sarcasm not enough for you to pick up on??

BTW: Since Jan Trit, Pyerite and Mex have all lost about 40% of their value.
Lolita Troublemaker
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2013-08-11 12:23:20 UTC
commander aze wrote:
So ok I like this cause it benefits me but this doesnt solve the problem that odessey made for mining in null. As it stands a cyno ship can warp to an ore site from gate witg no probes. And anyone that flys a barge will tell you they go slow. Make the ore sites scan down items that require probes. Then you will see alot more mining in null.



I agree that CCP broke 0.0 mining with the last changes, I still do not know why ore sites are not just made into standard belts, if they need a scanner to see them then THEY NEED TO BE SCANNED DOWN. CCP just caved in to the gankers that didn't want to bring a scanning ship on pvp roams (seems like group gameplay that CCP always pushes). I would REALLY like to see any stats that show what the scanning changes did to 0.0 mining, I bet it dropped off a lot that now these true sec changes are needed.

I know this is not the place to discuss this, but it really seems that CCP is not listening to the actual players that do mine in this game, so I feel any chance this issue will be read by devs is a chance to bring this up.

As for the trusec changes, I believe this will just concentrate more people into already crowded systems and not really help the overall issues.
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#32 - 2013-08-12 11:11:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
"...........we're also not committed to the idea that any one area of space needs to be completely independent from others."
CCP Fozzie.
" CCP are trying to make one area not dependent on others etc for industry and mining. Mega/Morphite are the obvious exceptions." Johanna Outeston.
"High sec is certainly dependent on nullsec for mega/morphite and nocx/Iso to a lesser extent." Johanna Outeston.
"But, do remember Nullsec does supply al of the Mega/Morphite in the game, as well as the majority of Nox and iso." Johanna Outeston.

You need to read what Fozzie just wrote Johanna. CCP are not looking to make nullsec independent from other areas in New Eden. We have Jump Freighters and Freighters for a reason - to enable trade.

"One area of space does control the Mex -High sec." Johanna Outeston.

High sec doesn't 'control' or have sole access to Mexallon unlike nullsec which you have pointed out yourself many times.

".......you can't import just mex, except raw, and well, that is about batshit stupid." Johanna Outeston.

I don't understand why you can't import raw Mexallon. Minerals are transported around high sec all the time. You just bring out any excess tritanium or other minerals etc you wish to, buy Mexallon in high sec. then transport it back to nullsec. There has been so much whinging for ages about nullsec not having enough tritanium and now you have more you don't want it. Roll

" It's going to make "risky mining" (aka mining outside of highsec) a sovreignty nullsec only thing,while some NPC regions are harder to live in and should really be viable for mining too." Deirdre Anethoel.

Everyone knows the majority of mining in nullsec is conducted deep in 'blue' as it's just not worth the bother otherwise. Ideally CCP needs to introduce some kind of 'mid-ground', maybe with environmental effects and other restrictions, to wean more pilots and small corporations into dipping their toes into nullsec. This idea was mooted by CCP around the time that ring mining and modular POSes were talked about but it has sunk without trace since. Probably due to influence of nullsec monopolies and their control over the CSM. Sad

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .

Tux88
Tux factory
#33 - 2013-08-12 11:50:39 UTC
I know its'nt the object of this thread but i'm a very little miner and i'm recently installed in a null system in syndicate.... and very disapointed to only discovered jaspet.... only jaspet for camp gate, bubbles, logistic, risk for the pos and vessel ?
If we were in null for mining i will leave to high sec, seriously in high you now have better mineral than our null area.....
Johanna Outeston
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#34 - 2013-08-13 01:15:32 UTC
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:


".......you can't import just mex, except raw, and well, that is about batshit stupid." Johanna Outeston.

I don't understand why you can't import raw Mexallon. Minerals are transported around high sec all the time. You just bring out any excess tritanium or other minerals etc you wish to, buy Mexallon in high sec. then transport it back to nullsec. There has been so much whinging for ages about nullsec not having enough tritanium and now you have more you don't want it. Roll



OK, I had a hard time following the other parts of your post due to :Wall of test: so i will answer what i sure is your response

OK, assuming you build a Nyx, you need roughly 87mil Mex - if you mine the rest of the minerals in a semi normal manner you will end with the rest of the minerals but have about 20-25mil Mex, so you can go to Jita and buy 65 mil mex and use 2-3 JF and jump them to where you are building your Nyx. This will cost roughly 100-200mil in jump fuel on average, maybe a bit more if you are isolated. That all comes out of your profit. Not terrible but doable

NOW, Build an Avatar, you need 330mil Mex, assuming the same scenarion and you mine, you will end up with roughly 100mil Mex, so you have to go to Jita and but 230mil Mex and JF it out. That will be 8-9 JF loads and an additional cost of about a Billion ISK, plus a crap ton of time.

Now, do this 2-3 times a month and you will understand how stupid this is.

Now, old method was go to jita and buy ALL materials required to build and compress to 425 rail guns, ammo and other things.
You can fit an ENTIRE Nyx into 1.5 Jf and an ENTIRE Avatar into 7.3 JF, but under the new method it takes 8-9 JF load of raw mex to suppplement what you mine in Nullsec.

So, basically mining the minerals in null sec now requires MORE JF runs just for raw Mex than it did before for all the minerals combined in compressed form.

Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#35 - 2013-08-13 14:22:25 UTC
I see I see. Smile So with CCP not wishing to make nullsec self sufficient your best option is to stick with the old method and just mine for Megacyte, Morphite, Zydrine, & Nocxium to suit your requirements for manufacturing and/or trade. Sounds simple enough to me.

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .

Nakali Nabali
#36 - 2013-08-13 16:31:50 UTC
To the ones crying about not enough mex, you need to stop.

You cried about trit and u got more.

Null sec are the only ones to get mega/morphite so your already ahead by 2,

now on top of the trit/mega/morphite.

You want more mex. This smacks of a baby throwing a tantrum because they want candy and can't have it because they have had their cake and pie and got to eat it.

To the ones screaming about how much more cost / effort it is to import mex wake up just add it to your prices as costs and if people don't want to pay it thats there problem they clearly don't want the ship bad enough.

And as I see Alot of goons crying I'm guessing its because there tech took a leap off a cliff and they need something else to screw the market with.
Drtic Czech
State War Academy
Caldari State
#37 - 2013-08-13 17:58:37 UTC
I understand there is an issue with mex as a miner on some chars myself. I also wish they would change it but as someone iterated above me, mex can be bought in Jita or Rens or trade-hub of your choice and shipped to null.

Now the biggest thing someone said is that CCP wants everyone to work together, Wh/Null/Low and High. With that being said WORMHOLES take 3 freighters. With a bit of scanning you can import 270million mexallon in about 5mins. Couple days later take all your freighters back out with your extra high-ends and some trit.

As much as I would love to see more Mex in null it isn't going to happen because if it did people like goons would sit in the north mine all day and have a corner on the market where as tinier alliances or renters would be sitting there SOL because they have to pay more to uphold their space and what not.

Eve has never been a game of being good at one thing, you must understand a lot of the game to be good and be efficent and it seems a lot of you are to scared of wormholes to even bother taking freighters out a c5 or c6 or direct and moving a few jumps. Risk and Reward... Those willing to are reaping benefits while others sit and complain

Stop complaining be grateful for what we have in null and realize not having to scan down sites is better for everyone and makes mining more profitable because of the risk involved.

That is all.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#38 - 2013-08-14 15:38:30 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Hey guys, wanted to let you all know that for the first day or so after 1.1 releases there may be some odd behavior with the ore upgrade amoms (most common symptom is both the old and new types of belts appearing in the system at the same time). This should go away in a few days at most, and should in almost all cases be gone by the second downtime after the patch.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#39 - 2013-08-14 19:29:09 UTC
commander aze wrote:
Ccp fozzie anything on making grav sites something you have to scan down? Just saying that will make null sec mining much more desirable.

^^ This is what I would like to see. After all we have both anomalies and signatures for combat sites, why not ore sites?

Even if all the existing changes are left, all previous gravametric sites are now ore anomalies. But why can we not also have ore signatures that need to be scanned down. these should only be random spawns, not spawned by the prospecting array, and could be one step up in value from the normal random ore anomalies that spawn based on true sec.

Even if these were only added to low sec and NPC null. That is the areas they are needed, where mining is suicide in static belts that do not need to be scanned down. An ore anomaly is the same as a static belt as far as how easy they are to find. One click and you are warping to them.

Come on Fozzie, why can we not have ore sites that need to be scanned down, in addition to all the old sites being changed to ORE anomalies. Combat Pilots get to hid in signature sites if they choose to, both are available, And they have a much better chance to defend themselves than a mining ship. Give the miners the same choice, give us ORE signatures, even if they are very difficult to get to 100%, i.e. require above average scanning skills. The gankers can always use combat probes to scan for the ships, rather than have trouble scanning down the sites they are in.

Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2013-08-15 00:33:39 UTC
Johanna Outeston wrote:
OK, I had a hard time following the other parts of your post due to :Wall of test: so i will answer what i sure is your response

OK, assuming you build a Nyx, you need roughly 87mil Mex - if you mine the rest of the minerals in a semi normal manner you will end with the rest of the minerals but have about 20-25mil Mex, so you can go to Jita and buy 65 mil mex and use 2-3 JF and jump them to where you are building your Nyx. This will cost roughly 100-200mil in jump fuel on average, maybe a bit more if you are isolated. That all comes out of your profit. Not terrible but doable

NOW, Build an Avatar, you need 330mil Mex, assuming the same scenarion and you mine, you will end up with roughly 100mil Mex, so you have to go to Jita and but 230mil Mex and JF it out. That will be 8-9 JF loads and an additional cost of about a Billion ISK, plus a crap ton of time.

Now, do this 2-3 times a month and you will understand how stupid this is.

Now, old method was go to jita and buy ALL materials required to build and compress to 425 rail guns, ammo and other things.
You can fit an ENTIRE Nyx into 1.5 Jf and an ENTIRE Avatar into 7.3 JF, but under the new method it takes 8-9 JF load of raw mex to suppplement what you mine in Nullsec.

So, basically mining the minerals in null sec now requires MORE JF runs just for raw Mex than it did before for all the minerals combined in compressed form.



This might be completely stupid as I have no experience with this, but why not mine until you have enough Mex to build whatever it is you want to build and then JF the excess other mineral types to high sec to sell?