Wormholes

Again, I think a distinction must be made; this time between the synergy between a wolf-rayet's bonuses and those of your suggested black hole bonuses.

Wolf-Rayets have one (1) bonus specific to only certain ship classes. This bonus is relatively small; a 50% to small weapons is, in absolute (non-percentage) terms, a small increase in dps and has little to no effect on the viability of small-hardpointed ships in a wolf-rayet. It is, more or less, a 'flavour enhancer' that takes advantage of the sig size bonus, which happens to be granted to all of the ships in that wormhole. It has little effect on the overall viability of fleet comps in wolf-rayet systems, but instead allows for more, fun options, like destroyers and assault frigates to be used very successfully againt ABC fleets. It gives them an extra little 'flavour boost'.

Your suggestion, on the other hand, has three (3) gigantic, across-the-board bonuses to only one class of ship, out of (5) bonuses, with one (1) other added, as you say, to make another type of t2 ship viable, bringing us to 4 out of 5 bonuses for a specific type of ship, with one 'flavour' bonus added in. In this way I do not think wolf-rayet bonuses and your suggested black hole bonuses are comparable, and should not be treated as such.



I shall reiterate; it is only in the worst possible scenario your suggested effects will 'break' anything.



It is in the principle of your proposal in which I disagree; t2 ships must be allowed to stand on their own two feet and be viable in all of w-space, not just in black holes. I personally do enjoy flying t2 ships, but often don't get such a chance when t3s are the way to go. I appreciate your sentiment of making t2 compositions a viable alternative to t3 compositions, but this is not the way it should be done. Black holes should have other, more general effects that will have a tangible effect on all ships, which almost all current wormholes have (red giants don't really have much effect).

Trust me, proc. I want to mess around in eagle fleets as much as the next guy, but this is not the way to do it. nerf t3s(correctly, but I don't want to get into this) and allow the glorious beagle to roam free in any wormhole by its own merit,
rather than because of 3 arbitrary buffs that will apply only occasionally.



Looks like we're in agreement, then.

I've been looking into Black holes from a purely cap escalation point of view and have noticed a few interesting things with the effects as they currently are.

To run cap escalations the most efficiently requires Moroses. Naglfars are no slouches but at all 5 skills they just can't compete with the close range dps of a moros.

An interesting thing happens in a Black hole though.

Naglfars, because they rely more heavily on Falloff and because they have so many more mids they can nearly ignore one of the negative effect of these wormholes. Suddenly Naglfars are far superior to Moroses when running these sites.

That said you still lose over 2k dps at the 36km orbiting range but that's nothing compared to the nearly 5k a Moros loses, not to mention the horrible projection at further ranges. The difference between a Nag and Moros just grows after that.

This has actually got me thinking, why do people REALLY hate black holes so much? With this new information I would like to put forward that the real reason is pretty simple.

Because people are unable or too lazy to adapt.

Regardless, from what we've seen there are enough unoccupied normal C5s out there that I have not heard a single valid argument against BHs existing considering you can cap escalate at 80-85% efficiency.

In fact, with how many sites are clogged up in BHs at the moment I can't understand why people aren't flooding them as we speak.

Granted this IS only from a cap escalation POV but we have run enough C3-C4 BHs to see that they are also easily adapted to and in fact with certain tactics can even run them FASTER than normal because of the increase in ship speed. (Think blasters)

I wouldn't advocate for a boost in drone or missiles to help boost lower class BH wormholes simply because all other sub C5 WHs are currently already run most efficiently with these two weapon systems (RR Tengus and Domis)

Perhaps BHs shouldn't be changed at all, rather the people living in wormholes should be the ones that should get off their fat, lazy asses and change.

I'd prefer something like this:

Ship velocity +10% +18% +22% +27% +34% +50%
Inertia +10% +18% +22% +27% +34% +50%
Repair amount +25% +44% +55% +68% +85% +100%
Shield boost amount +25% +44% +55% +68% +85% +100%
Shield transfer amount -10% -19% -27% -34% -41% -50%
Remote repair amount -10% -19% -27% -34% -41% -50%
Capacitor recharge +10% +18% +22% +27% +34% +50%

- I like the speed/inertia changes in black holes, as of right now they are simply too strong
- there is no effect that promotes active boosting in pvp in particular
- to counter local-rep-boost for pve-activities (cap escalations especially) capacitor needs to be nerfed

Edit: Yes, marauders would be even more overpowered in such a hole. But there is counters to everything, amirite ...

excellent trolling!

I don't know that they need the velocity inertial numbers, since Cataclysmics don't have anything else, but I agree, I'd love for this to be implemented. I know I've suggested that black holes become the opposite of a Cataclysmic, and I doubt I was the first either, so there's a lot of support behind this idea I suspect.

You can still run capital escalations, but you'd need to adapt fittings and fleet setups indeed (e.g. less local reps, more cap ...). Remote reps are ~only~ halved in C6s, that is something that could be compensated ;) marauders would probably die though ...

I do see your point, but: as I see it, all effects promote certain flavors of gameplay while discouraging others. Above proposal is something that both current AND future black-hole-systen inhabitants could appreciate - at least, I believe so.

The idea was that it would support solo pilots and micro-gangs that can't afford to bring extra logistics to pewpew, not running higher-class sites solo. My reasoning was further that the capacitor-nerf would limit pve-applicability... not sure how well that would work in light of cap boosters, I have to admit.

For those not familiar with the movie The Final Countdown (1980), a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier enters a "storm-like vortex" that sends the carrier back in time to Dec 6, 1942 (1 day prior to Pearl Harbor).

A RNG-warp tunnel at the center of a Black Hole wormhole sends you on a 1-way trip to a distant location. Aside from allowing a capital-class ship to enter highsec, basically you warp to the sun. Once you land on grid with the black hole 'sun', randomly you may find a 1-way hole has spawned on grid with you. Enter and it spits you out the other side and closes behind you.

Black Hole Systems having different bonuses (missiles, ecm, etc) would also be good. Just like a bit of run-down real estate in your neighborhood, 'flip this house' by sending in some contractors with granite countertops, hardwood/stone flooring, you get the idea. Ice was shot down, but essentially black holes need something to attract residents. Otherwise, empty space just for moving through is what black holes will remain.

There are no mining barges/exhumers with armor bonuses, but if that is coming down the pike any time soon (TM), adding something for attracting armor-bonused mining ships would be a start.

TL/DR: I think the problem relates to the effects on velocity and inertia. Every other effect in wormhole space affects ship performance, but the affect both of these effects have in this wormhole, with the exception of affecting a ships tracking performance because the target is moving faster, are related to pilot skill.

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A blackhole is what?
Since you want to mimic a blackhole you would probably want to do something with ship movement. The current effects see ships accelerate, which suggests they would be heading towards a black hole. Generally we don't want to get torn up by a black hole, so we would try to get away from it. You could reduce the velocity and inertia in the hole by the same amounts that you have increased it. Maybe you should be creating the entirely opposite effect.

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What currently happens, correct me if I am wrong:
Every fight occurs at a closer range but a faster pace. Damage is harder to apply to the faster moving targets regardless of tracking.


Here are some situations I could see occurring with the current effects, please correct me if they are wrong:

1- The dwellers of a black hole should have the opportunity to use the effects of the hole to their advantage. Let me give you an example of the problem I can see with the current set up. If I am in a sniping naga living in a C6 blackhole, my optimal range and fall off is bad so I need to be twice as close. I can move faster which you would think is an advantage. However, since everything else can move faster, I get chased by an interceptor, who catches me as fast as he would in known space since we both have the bonus to speed and velocity and inertia, everything evens out in the end so it technically makes no difference - apart from pilot skill utilising their manoeuvrability and mobility. However, effects are supposed to affect the ships performance and not the pilots, right?. Going back to the example, it also becomes twice as hard for me to hit the interceptor because he's moving twice as fast.

2- I'm living in a C6 in a superbly armour tanked legion with an AB and close range blasters. I can't catch anything and I am a brawler. My situation doesn't change outside of the wormhole because everyone gets the same velocity and inertia bonus. The exception once again is that I will find it harder to hit my target. It just all happens at a faster rate so it's again down to pilot skill. The effects should affect the ships performance, not the pilots skill, right? Someone can kite me in known space just as well as they can in the wormhole and it's harder for me to hit them.


Here are four considerations, maybe some of this would be useful to think about:

1 - Right now we can be really fast, but our range is shot. So this would be really slow with poor range.
I don't know how complicated it would be to implement this idea:
You can vary this by ship mass. Greater masses result in greater velocity penalties. Lighter ships have a reduced effect. It would at least promote the idea of having to fit a particular type of ship, in this case a nano fitted ship stands to gain more here. I think the idea is to give the dwellers the opportunity to create unique fits that work well in their home.

2- If this is too complicated and you want something simpler then why not leave the velocity as it is and reverse the inertia entirely? You could try the opposite, leaving the inertia untouched and reverse the velocity effects.

3 - Could you increase the current effects as you get closer to the black hole in the centre of the wormhole, and decrease them further away?

4 - Apply a mass effect, but only for one of inertia or velocity. You can't do it by ship class because it would somewhat nullify ship race differences which is against the general mechanics. As with known space, if a ship is heavier it is slower and takes longer to turn. Your heavier ship is going to find it harder to manoeuvre.

5 - You double the number of goodies to exploit in a black hole. Capsuleers will go where there are riches to be made. Increase the reward for living in the worst environment inhabitable in EVE. If pilots can suck it up then they are rewarded. You could double the number of goodies for each class whilst keeping the same effects?.

It could be fun to test on the test server, however Pilots want to be rewarded for fitting their ship correctly. If an EFT warrior spends an hour fitting a ship only for the key EWAR related module to turn into something entirely differently, rendering their entire fit useless, then they would never go into that wormhole.
As you said it's about getting people to live there, this would probably discourage that.
I like your idea about make the black hold at the centre of the wormhole look nice :)