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The Righteousness of Vitoc
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Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2011-11-06 15:01:07 UTC
On the whole, burning every copy of the Book of Reclaiming and scrubbing every databank that ever held it would not be a great loss to the world.

Then again, you could say that about the majority of Amarrian civilization.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#142 - 2011-11-06 16:01:09 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:


Wrong, wrong and wrong again. How do you tie your shoelaces in the morning, let alone manage the walk to your pod?


You seem confused and angry. Maybe you should come back when you actually understand Amarrian culture and the Scriptures.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2011-11-06 16:24:27 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
You seem confused and angry. Maybe you should come back when you actually understand Amarrian culture and the Scriptures.


I am neither confused nor angry. My acquisition of a very firm understanding of what Amarrian culture and the Scriptures actually are has robbed me of the ability to consistently feel those emotions in relation to them anymore.

You have, as usual for an Amarrian, done nothing to actually counter my points, so you concede their validity by default.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#144 - 2011-11-06 16:29:26 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
On the whole, burning every copy of the Book of Reclaiming and scrubbing every databank that ever held it would not be a great loss to the world.

Then again, you could say that about the majority of Amarrian civilization.



And you accuse the Empire of wanting to wipe out cultures.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#145 - 2011-11-06 16:30:29 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
And you accuse the Empire of wanting to wipe out cultures.


No. I do not accuse you of wanting to do it. The Amarr have done it successfully several times. The Scriptures speak of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#146 - 2011-11-07 00:00:34 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Hm. The practical implementation of serfdom differed widely between areas (I suspect even on Athra when the Book of Reclaiming was written), so it's difficult to tell. Especially the "protection" part was more of a "honorable" thing than an actual requirement, much like the current idea that the Holders should be a bit careful with their property.

But let's assume the textbook definition holds - would you say that the Scriptures directly endorse and condone serfdom, but not slavery?


I was not refering to the practical implementation of serfdom, like slavery (which is different), but to the definition itself in a context of feodality.

Anyway, it is more or less acceptable to think that serfdom is endorsed in the Scriptures, though as there is hardly a proved link between serfdom and slavery, I would not be able to tell if the Scriptures endorse slavery as well. I would say that they do not, which does not mean that they forbid it, but that they just do not endorse it.

Arkady Sadik wrote:
I do not think that you can, as a Faithful, reject slavery at least as part of the whole without rejecting the Book of Reclaiming. And while I suspect that you can reject slavery as the main vehicle of conversion, the alternatives are as problematic, though: BoR 22:13 is very explicit about conquest, and both BoR 25:10 as well as BoR 4:45 limit the alternatives on how to treat non-believers rather drastically: "There will be neither compassion nor mercy; Nor peace, nor solace" ... "those [...] who reject his true word // Shall be struck down by his wrath." I've seen it argued that "struck down by his wrath" could mean that it's not up to his chosen ones to fullfill this, but the next lines are rather explicit as to who will bring down his wrath: "For we are his retribution incarnate // His Angels of Vengeance."

So all in all, the Book of Reclaiming is very clear there about conversion by the sword, nothing else.


No. You are merely jumping to conclusions in your haste to paint the Amarr Empire in black and your reasoning is getting quite far fetched and clunky, if I may add.

You can perfectly show no compassion and mercy in something that you hold dear to your heart that is not about conquest and war, Then, what is the manifestation of this wrath ? God killing unbelievers ? Amarrians killing unbelievers ? God's printing his wrath in the hearts of the unbelievers ? This is rather unclear to my view. And then, retribution incarnate and angels of vengeance, why would they need vengeance ? Unbelievers hurt them and they want a revenge through reclaiming ? This is very vague and almost sounds like dementia. But eventually it is merely said that they are his retribution and vengeance, and this can only mean that they embody an entity capable of revenge if something is done against Him (God).


Arkady Sadik wrote:
All these debates about slavery are missing something, in my opinion - and that is that, while slavery in the exact form as employed right now by the Amarr might not be required by the Scriptures, the expansionism and conquest is. And the terminology is not particularly fuzzy there - this is about conquest by the sword, about no mercy, no peace, no solace, all brought by the Amarr. This is the main issue.


Well, you are definitly not the only one to hold that interpretation of how should be carried the Reclaiming, at least.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#147 - 2011-11-07 00:21:23 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
This is very vague and almost sounds like dementia.
Well, it would be far from me to disagree that the Book of Reclaiming sounds like dementia.

That is, I am likely the wrong person to argue for the interpretation of the Book of Reclaiming that asks for conquest and wrath. What I was trying to point out here is that the BoR reads surprisingly different in tone and in style to all the other works of the Scriptures.

Let's hope that more people will find your interpretation of the Scriptures for themselves.
Kithrus
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#148 - 2011-11-07 06:56:05 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
And you accuse the Empire of wanting to wipe out cultures.


No. I do not accuse you of wanting to do it. The Amarr have done it successfully several times. The Scriptures speak of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.


And yet not a few posts above are ready to erase large swathes of out culture without considering the long term implications this would cause?

Regardless of what you feel about God, out a you a social engineer he did not make.

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#149 - 2011-11-07 11:06:32 UTC
Kithrus wrote:
And yet not a few posts above are ready to erase large swathes of out culture without considering the long term implications this would cause?


The long term implications of large swathes of your culture being erased would be that the Amarr Empire could no longer persist in its current state, and thus would no longer pose a long-term danger to the other three states, which it most certainly does now.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#150 - 2011-11-07 14:21:00 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Kithrus wrote:
And yet not a few posts above are ready to erase large swathes of out culture without considering the long term implications this would cause?


The long term implications of large swathes of your culture being erased would be that the Amarr Empire could no longer persist in its current state, and thus would no longer pose a long-term danger to the other three states, which it most certainly does now.



You appear to be saying that in your view it's acceptable to wipe out a culture if it threatens other cultures.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Ran'shad
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#151 - 2011-11-07 14:28:57 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Kithrus wrote:
And yet not a few posts above are ready to erase large swathes of out culture without considering the long term implications this would cause?


The long term implications of large swathes of your culture being erased would be that the Amarr Empire could no longer persist in its current state, and thus would no longer pose a long-term danger to the other three states, which it most certainly does now.


If you take God away from a religious man, he is more apt to strike out for personal reasons. Faith provides a framework for how the Empire functions, and while there is clearly room for various interpretations of our various articles of faith the result of taking away our faith, our religion and our God would be disasterous.

If you take a soldier out of the militia, but leave him all of his tools of death, he becomes much more dangerous, eventually becoming a pirate or mercenary in order to find the comradeship denied hiim by no longer wearing the uniform of his homeland.

I would suggest that if you were able to, and that is a huge IF, remove relgion form the Amarr Empire, you would create a much more dangerous entity, without the constraint and discipline imposed on our wills by God and our faith, all that would remain would be our fleets and need for purpose.

High Lord Ran'Shad CEO Imperial Manufacturing and Engineering Regiment Elemental Tide Alliance
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#152 - 2011-11-07 14:38:02 UTC
Ran'shad wrote:
I would suggest that if you were able to, and that is a huge IF, remove relgion form the Amarr Empire, you would create a much more dangerous entity, without the constraint and discipline imposed on our wills by God and our faith, all that would remain would be our fleets and need for purpose.


Oh I wouldn't know about that. If religion was removed from the Empire then the only people to live in fear are those who sit in high authority and hold their power through the hold that faith has on the Empire and her citizens.

What would emerge from the civil war that follows, I'd be very interested to see.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Ran'shad
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#153 - 2011-11-07 14:47:17 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:


Oh I wouldn't know about that. If religion was removed from the Empire then the only people to live in fear are those who sit in high authority and hold their power through the hold that faith has on the Empire and her citizens.

What would emerge from the civil war that follows, I'd be very interested to see.


If you beleive that the only people who need fear a civil war are those in power, then you are clearly out of touch.

Even the smaller Lords and corporations often comman significant destructive forces, many of which would be turned on the followers of their rivals. No doubt hundres of millions of commoners would suffer death and dismemberment for every High Lord that fears being thrown down.

High Lord Ran'Shad CEO Imperial Manufacturing and Engineering Regiment Elemental Tide Alliance
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#154 - 2011-11-07 14:58:32 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
So we're both stuck in the past and capable of embracing new ideas such as Vitoc?

Make up your mind!


What is Vitoc if not a method of clinging to the past? Your slaves will not listen to you by choice anymore. They no longer obey you out of fear or reverence. Rather than face the reality of your religion's dwindling relevance and the slow but inevitable fading of the Empire's power, you attempt to force compliance via engendering a dependency upon the antidote to a toxic virus you engineered to ensure your slaves would still obey you.


Does your Federation not operate by a series of incentives and penalties? Is the idea not that lawbreakers go to prison while those who work hard get rewarded for their efforts? Does the presence of a prison system mean that the people of the Federation have no choice? Are you against carrots and sticks such as these?

Vitoc, when used properly, represents the ultimate carrot and stick in one package.

The punishments are easily applied, and the incentives are tastier than any measly carrot.


I eagerly look forward to watching you die.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#155 - 2011-11-07 15:04:21 UTC
Ava Starfire wrote:
I eagerly look forward to watching you die.
Don't expect too much. The last three times weren't too exciting.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#156 - 2011-11-07 15:16:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
Ran'shad wrote:

If you beleive that the only people who need fear a civil war are those in power, then you are clearly out of touch.


Not as out of touch as your understanding of what I actually said was.

Those who hold power through religion, above others, would have much to fear. The common man may suffer and has his life to lose as much as the Lord who has lost his shield, but he has the potential to gain and become much more than he ever could have been under the current system.


In short the Empire would emerge from the chaos as something other than a theocracy, what that'd be, would be interesting to find out.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#157 - 2011-11-07 15:24:26 UTC
[doublepost]

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#158 - 2011-11-07 15:30:08 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
What amuses me is that the Amarr proclaim to try and bring their faith to others, but when others start to discuss the basis of their faith, all that happens is that they tell those others that they have no right to discuss the faith.

When the only people who actually do discuss the meaning of the Scriptures are a Blood Raider and a Republic loyalist, you can get a pretty concrete idea about how much of the current Empire is about Faith. May your God have mercy with you.


Debating the basis of Amarrian faith isn't just throwing in some ragtag interpretation of Scripture. There are standards of interpretation and exegesis one would have to adhere to, to engage into any serious discussion.

So you've maybe a discussion about meaning but not a meaningful discussion.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#159 - 2011-11-07 15:33:10 UTC
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
Arkady Sadik wrote:
What amuses me is that the Amarr proclaim to try and bring their faith to others, but when others start to discuss the basis of their faith, all that happens is that they tell those others that they have no right to discuss the faith.

When the only people who actually do discuss the meaning of the Scriptures are a Blood Raider and a Republic loyalist, you can get a pretty concrete idea about how much of the current Empire is about Faith. May your God have mercy with you.


Debating the basis of Amarrian faith isn't just throwing in some ragtag interpretation of Scripture. There are standards of interpretation and exegesis one would have to adhere to, to engage into any serious discussion.

So you've maybe a discussion about meaning but not a meaningful discussion.


That really just reads as "You aren't considered "qualified" to talk about the Scriptures unless you've demonstrated that your thought process is along the same lines as ours. Should you deviate from this we'll denounce you a heretic, gotta keep the masses in check and all..."

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Nick Bete
Highsec Haulers Inc.
#160 - 2011-11-07 19:13:59 UTC
So basically we all could have saved ourselves countless hours if we'd just condensed everything to this:

"Is Vitoc usage moral and is it proscribed by our religious texts? I don't believe it is."
"God told us to steamroll everyone, convert them, or kill them. Vitoc is just a tool we use to get the job done. Get over it."
"Vitoc is evil. It doesn't work to convert non-believers to your deity and causes untold pain and suffering."
"Thoughtful analysis of your scriptures seems to say..."
"You're not qualified to speak heathens! You're not one of us. It's an Amarr thing, you wouldn't understand."

Great. Got it.

Trying to reason with most Imperial zealots always ends the same way. Therefore it's pointless to even try. The only thing they understand is brute force. It worked pretty well for the Jove so, I say the rest of us band together and make it plain to the Amarr that any attempt to "reclaim" us would lead to a devastating war that they would certainly lose.

I don't believe in your God, your Empress or your supposed superiority over the rest of humanity. I don't think you should hold other men as property but, realistically, if your abhorrent practices remain within Empire borders, it doesn't affect me. (The Minmatar would rightly disagree with this statement) Just leave me and all who want nothing to do with you the hell alone. Pretty simple.