Intergalactic Summit

On the contrary, it's because I do see a soul when I look at someone that I try to help that soul achieve enlightenment.

There are slaves who enjoy their position. Hell, some people in the Federation pay to be allowed in such a position.

The issue we have is that our people are only allowed to "choose" if they agree.

If the Amarr would have just set up BDSM studios in the Federation, no one would have complained.

You're assuming that all slaves receive Vitoc treatment and that Vitoc is the only component of the enlightenment process.

Both of these assumptions are wrong.

"Process".

Religion is supposed to be a personal relationship with and interpretation of a deity. It doesn't surprise me at all that you've reduced it to some sort of factory-floor flowchart. But the fact is, my point doesn't just apply to Vitoc. You cannot change the fundamental core beliefs of a person coercively. It's simply not possible.

Except that the likes of yourself and Ixiris don't want to discuss the Scriptures to better understand them, but rather to attempt to attack them.

No, Blake. It's not better. But I take satisfaction in knowing that you consistently reveal through pretty much every word you say that you have absolutely no idea how the human mind works. Once again, it is impossible to coercively force a person to believe something. Such attempts are not only doomed to failure, but tend to create future problems - as the Minmatar Rebellion should have taught you.

But Amarrians have learning disabilities.

But the fact of the matter is, our methods work.

You talk about the Minmatar Rebellion.

But what about the billions of Minmatar who didn't rebel? What about the Ealur? What about the Ni-Kunni? What about the Udorians?

Our methods may not be instantaneous, and that may be why someone raised by the Federation to want everything instantly doesn't understand them. But they do work.

Who says they didn't rebel? Whether they were successful was another matter. The Rebellion was a devastating blow to the Empire but even the most optimistic of idealists wouldn't dare suggest that the Minmatar won every batlte fought during the Rebellion. The fact is, nearly a thousand years of indoctrination, cultural destruction, genocide and cold-blooded torture demonstrably did not work on the Minmatar, and continues not to work today.



They did not have the benefit of having run a successful, expansive interstellar empire before you came along and annihilated their culture (and in the case of the Ni-Kunni, their neighbours). It is somewhat telling that the vast majority of both the Ni-Kunni and the Ealurians are intentionally kept planetbound, uneducated and destitute. You do this because you fear another uprising.



The Udorians are in a cushy position of secular power. While the only Udorians with true religious authority are the Tash-Murkon family, there are a large number of Udorian holders who are wealthy and powerful. There would be no benefit to the Udorians if they rebelled - they'd lose their wealth, power and political influence. And in terms of religion, Catiz Tash-Murkon is hardly a traditionalist.

The Udorians, it would seem, are milking the Amarr Empire for all they can get out of it - and that thought, I have to say, warms the cockles of my heart. Even though I hate your religion, your culture and all the people who prop it up, if I were making that much bank off of your primitive, inferior superstitions, I'd stay put too.



Wrong, wrong and wrong again. How do you tie your shoelaces in the morning, let alone manage the walk to your pod?

Hm. The practical implementation of serfdom differed widely between areas (I suspect even on Athra when the Book of Reclaiming was written), so it's difficult to tell. Especially the "protection" part was more of a "honorable" thing than an actual requirement, much like the current idea that the Holders should be a bit careful with their property.

But let's assume the textbook definition holds - would you say that the Scriptures directly endorse and condone serfdom, but not slavery?

Well, the context of that line (BoR 3:19-3:21) is about the order in the world. The repeating statement there is "[s]o shall Amarr rule the worlds of the Heavens." If you take the full context, it says "lo, my people [...] these worlds [the worlds of the Heavens] I give to you, My Chosen [...] None shall stand higher than you save the Sefrim, Who serve Me as others shall serve you, For all things under Me serve one higher" (and then the line about serfs) - I think the interpretation that this establishes a clear hierarchy with the Amarr on top of the perceivable world is not too far-fetched.

I do not think that you can, as a Faithful, reject slavery at least as part of the whole without rejecting the Book of Reclaiming. And while I suspect that you can reject slavery as the main vehicle of conversion, the alternatives are as problematic, though: BoR 22:13 is very explicit about conquest, and both BoR 25:10 as well as BoR 4:45 limit the alternatives on how to treat non-believers rather drastically: "There will be neither compassion nor mercy; Nor peace, nor solace" ... "those [...] who reject his true word // Shall be struck down by his wrath." I've seen it argued that "struck down by his wrath" could mean that it's not up to his chosen ones to fullfill this, but the next lines are rather explicit as to who will bring down his wrath: "For we are his retribution incarnate // His Angels of Vengeance."

So all in all, the Book of Reclaiming is very clear there about conversion by the sword, nothing else. All these debates about slavery are missing something, in my opinion - and that is that, while slavery in the exact form as employed right now by the Amarr might not be required by the Scriptures, the expansionism and conquest is. And the terminology is not particularly fuzzy there - this is about conquest by the sword, about no mercy, no peace, no solace, all brought by the Amarr. This is the main issue.

The Amarr can keep slaves for all I care (I only want our people back). But that won't change the basic threat - as long as the Amarr believe the Scriptures as they are right now, they are a constant and continued threat to the peace and stability of the entire cluster. They can subdue their expansionism while they are weak, but as long as the Scriptures are accepted as they are right now, this is only ever a temporary situation.

As I noted, it's interesting that all of these - the whole foundation for the Amarrian expansionism, even for the desire to just convert nonbelievers - is found pretty much exclusively in the Book of Reclaiming. The worst the remaining books seem to offer to non-believers is pity and the idea that "forever forsaken will he be" (Amarr Askura 2:3). I find it curious that the tone in the Scriptures changes so drastically between these books. It's as if the Book of Reclaiming was added to a very different collection of books.