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The Righteousness of Vitoc
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Khazarn Areth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2011-10-29 11:24:23 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
What is really beautiful with Vitoxin is not so much its effects, but the scientific achievement, knowing how the virus mutates regularily and follows patterns of evolution that ask for new verions of Vitoc to be created (taking these patterns into account), while the disease itself can not be healed that way. Which means that the creation of the Vitoxin took into account the need for a way to neutralize the toxin itself (with the Vitoc drug), but the cure of the virus itself is hard to achieve, especially if you do not take into account the invention of the still unstable insorum.

This is a very advanced technology, and a masterpiece of genetic engineering.


Agreed.

It is art on a biological level, with the loyalist Amarrians seeming to be the only ones with a constant supply of new antidote.

Bloody Omir's coming back Monsters from the endless black Wading through a crimson flood Omir's come to drink your blood

Pax Thar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2011-10-29 13:40:21 UTC
Khazarn Areth wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
What is really beautiful with Vitoxin is not so much its effects, but the scientific achievement, knowing how the virus mutates regularily and follows patterns of evolution that ask for new verions of Vitoc to be created (taking these patterns into account), while the disease itself can not be healed that way. Which means that the creation of the Vitoxin took into account the need for a way to neutralize the toxin itself (with the Vitoc drug), but the cure of the virus itself is hard to achieve, especially if you do not take into account the invention of the still unstable insorum.

This is a very advanced technology, and a masterpiece of genetic engineering.


Agreed.

It is art on a biological level, with the loyalist Amarrians seeming to be the only ones with a constant supply of new antidote.



A masterpiece?... masterpiece.... if this is a masterpiece of Amarrian science and engineering then they are the masters of pain and suffering, bondage and oppression. Those infected by the Vitoxin have no hope of ever being freed by their Amarrian oppressors, only that they will live. The chemical dependancy on the Vitoc is only the chain around the neck, and through that chain the Amarr destroy all hope of that person having a future on their own terms.

Abomination?... yes, abomination.
Khazarn Areth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2011-10-29 14:30:17 UTC
Pax Thar wrote:
Khazarn Areth wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
What is really beautiful with Vitoxin is not so much its effects, but the scientific achievement, knowing how the virus mutates regularily and follows patterns of evolution that ask for new verions of Vitoc to be created (taking these patterns into account), while the disease itself can not be healed that way. Which means that the creation of the Vitoxin took into account the need for a way to neutralize the toxin itself (with the Vitoc drug), but the cure of the virus itself is hard to achieve, especially if you do not take into account the invention of the still unstable insorum.

This is a very advanced technology, and a masterpiece of genetic engineering.


Agreed.

It is art on a biological level, with the loyalist Amarrians seeming to be the only ones with a constant supply of new antidote.



A masterpiece?... masterpiece.... if this is a masterpiece of Amarrian science and engineering then they are the masters of pain and suffering, bondage and oppression. Those infected by the Vitoxin have no hope of ever being freed by their Amarrian oppressors, only that they will live. The chemical dependancy on the Vitoc is only the chain around the neck, and through that chain the Amarr destroy all hope of that person having a future on their own terms.

Abomination?... yes, abomination.


Even so you must admire its... effectiveness, why it hasnt been put forward to be used in bio weapons is beyond me its sheer potential is staggering.

That is the reason the Loyal Amarrians find it so righteous, to them it is a gift from god to turn those unwilling towards the light, force them if you will as our Matari friends like to say.

Bloody Omir's coming back Monsters from the endless black Wading through a crimson flood Omir's come to drink your blood

Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#44 - 2011-10-29 16:05:37 UTC
Vitoc is a temporary antidote to a fatal virus, designed to make people wholly dependent on whoever controls access to the supply of antidote. It is the most disgusting of all man's creations, designed solely to remove all free will from the victim. If the victim finds the willpower to defy their master, they are rewarded only with a wretched death. If they comply, their reward, a wretched life.

There is nothing righteous or good about forcing someone to be a drug addict dependent on their dealer. Anyone who thinks this is "ok" is as far from goodness and light as it is possible to be.

How nice. A drug to make me complacent, to make me your slave in this life, so I can go to "Heaven" and be your slave in the next. Nothing at all unrighteous here, nope. This must be what a loving god wants.

You will be happy to learn that Teraa Matar will immediately turn over anyone apprehended who is suspected of using Vitoc to a Tribal court, to be tried, and then executed, under Tribal law.

One good turn deserves another, after all. Just "bringing you to the light, through hardship".

Shaman Avlynka Surionen, Vitoc dependent for 16 years.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Khazarn Areth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2011-10-29 17:05:21 UTC
You believe in your morals and faith just as they believe in theirs, to debate with amarrain god botherers is fruitless.

Bloody Omir's coming back Monsters from the endless black Wading through a crimson flood Omir's come to drink your blood

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2011-10-29 17:31:50 UTC
If this is the Amarrian concept of "beauty", perhaps it would be better for the world if you all made yourselves beautiful.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#47 - 2011-10-29 18:05:33 UTC
In terms of pure science and achievement, it is indeed as much as beautiful as any advanced mathematical formula. I can not speak for everyone, but what you do with that knowledge and ensuing ethical concerns is something totally different for me. You can also consider atomic fusion admirable while you will actually despise its use in several weapons of mass destruction at the same time.

What is beautiful behind Vitoxin is not the Vitoxin itself, but the knowledge in genetics that lies behind. I will leave the appreciation of Vitoxin to ethical debates, for that it was definitly not my point here.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2011-10-29 18:14:22 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
In terms of pure science and achievement, it is indeed as much as beautiful as any advanced mathematical formula. I can not speak for everyone, but what you do with that knowledge and ensuing ethical concerns is something totally different for me.


You engineer a virus - a malignant organism specifically designed to destroy the cells of its host to reproduce exponentially - and call it beautiful. I used to think the Amarr were evil. With each new revelation, I think more and more that you're aliens, inhuman to the point that human morality can no longer be fully applied to you.

Lyn Farel wrote:
You can also consider atomic fusion admirable while you will actually despise its use in several weapons of mass destruction at the same time.


But at least atomic fusion has applications that do not involve murder and torture.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Ston Momaki
Disciples of Ston
#49 - 2011-10-29 18:32:06 UTC
I usually do not weigh in on non-debates such as this one. A grain of intelligence will convince most that the evil that necessitates the existence of Vitoc is a great sadness of our cluster. I make comment, because of a recent event in our Matriculation program. We anticipated that from time to time, we would rescue people who are Vitoc dependent. This is an unfortunate reality and until a permanent antidote is found, we must deal with it.

Manwe recently told me of the supply manifest from Elder Gladius. Included on the manifest of requested items was a supply of Vitoc. Gladius said that there are a few rescued former slaves who need it to stay alive. How sad. What sort of butchered intellect could have come up with this? Who engineered this oppression in the first place? This is unmitigated sadness and there is nothing righteous about it..

The Disciples of Ston bid you peace
Kithrus
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#50 - 2011-10-29 19:33:10 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
In terms of pure science and achievement, it is indeed as much as beautiful as any advanced mathematical formula. I can not speak for everyone, but what you do with that knowledge and ensuing ethical concerns is something totally different for me.


You engineer a virus - a malignant organism specifically designed to destroy the cells of its host to reproduce exponentially - and call it beautiful. I used to think the Amarr were evil. With each new revelation, I think more and more that you're aliens, inhuman to the point that human morality can no longer be fully applied to you.

Lyn Farel wrote:
You can also consider atomic fusion admirable while you will actually despise its use in several weapons of mass destruction at the same time.


But at least atomic fusion has applications that do not involve murder and torture.



not that I like Vitoc myself but I'd like to point out bio-research and bio-chemistry does have as well. This is but one use our advances research and tech.

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2011-10-29 20:30:49 UTC
Kithrus wrote:
not that I like Vitoc myself but I'd like to point out bio-research and bio-chemistry does have as well. This is but one use our advances research and tech.


Yet it is darkly symbolic that the only avenures of technology and research in which Amarr hold notable superiority are those that allow them to murder, pillage and control others - and the devices that provide power to these abominations.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#52 - 2011-10-30 10:50:50 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
In terms of pure science and achievement, it is indeed as much as beautiful as any advanced mathematical formula. I can not speak for everyone, but what you do with that knowledge and ensuing ethical concerns is something totally different for me.


You engineer a virus - a malignant organism specifically designed to destroy the cells of its host to reproduce exponentially - and call it beautiful. I used to think the Amarr were evil. With each new revelation, I think more and more that you're aliens, inhuman to the point that human morality can no longer be fully applied to you.

Lyn Farel wrote:
You can also consider atomic fusion admirable while you will actually despise its use in several weapons of mass destruction at the same time.


But at least atomic fusion has applications that do not involve murder and torture.


Your mistake here lies in the fact that you seem to consider Vitoxin to be the theoretical concept itself and not the scientific application of scientific knowledge.

The theory behind is genetic engineering knowledge. This is what is beautiful, not Vitoxin itself, as I said above. And yes, genetic engineering also has applications that do not involve murder and torture.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2011-10-30 17:45:06 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Your mistake here lies in the fact that you seem to consider Vitoxin to be the theoretical concept itself and not the scientific application of scientific knowledge.


Well, vitoxin at the very least seems to be its own avenue of research within a discipline - an avenue no sane or ethical scientist would ever allow themselves to research.

Lyn Farel wrote:
The theory behind is genetic engineering knowledge. This is what is beautiful, not Vitoxin itself, as I said above. And yes, genetic engineering also has applications that do not involve murder and torture.


Pity that the Amarrians outlaw most of them.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Kithrus
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#54 - 2011-10-30 17:59:34 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:

Lyn Farel wrote:
The theory behind is genetic engineering knowledge. This is what is beautiful, not Vitoxin itself, as I said above. And yes, genetic engineering also has applications that do not involve murder and torture.


Pity that the Amarrians outlaw most of them.


Example?

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#55 - 2011-10-30 18:09:24 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
Your mistake here lies in the fact that you seem to consider Vitoxin to be the theoretical concept itself and not the scientific application of scientific knowledge.


Well, vitoxin at the very least seems to be its own avenue of research within a discipline - an avenue no sane or ethical scientist would ever allow themselves to research.


Medicine ? Surgery ? Genetic compatibility ? Eco engineering ? Terraforming ? Wetware ?
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2011-10-30 18:12:40 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Medicine ? Surgery ? Genetic compatibility ? Eco engineering ? Terraforming ? Wetware ?


Biowarfare-purposed viral engineering.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Kithrus
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#57 - 2011-10-30 18:35:00 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
Medicine ? Surgery ? Genetic compatibility ? Eco engineering ? Terraforming ? Wetware ?


Biowarfare-purposed viral engineering.


Is as stated above one of many avenues of the same tree.

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.
Pax Thar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2011-10-30 20:51:52 UTC
Kithrus wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
Medicine ? Surgery ? Genetic compatibility ? Eco engineering ? Terraforming ? Wetware ?


Biowarfare-purposed viral engineering.


Is as stated above one of many avenues of the same tree.



Youve convinced me, i see the light. The Amarrians created a single purposed, virus-like weapon in order to keep a certain race of people subserviant, but the scientific value of such a weapon is a MARVEL of modern science. The possibilites are endless if we can just get past this whole slavery weapon issue things will be magnificent.

Perhaps when the Amarrians DO acheive these lofty scientific goals that you all assume are possible through viral engineering, they would be so kind as to change their whole religion and society and actualy share it with the rest of us. Maybe we can develop a virus that makes the Amarrian believe they are EQUALS instead of the rulers of mankind... yes thats it, a virus.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2011-10-30 21:14:49 UTC
Kithrus wrote:
Is as stated above one of many avenues of the same tree.


There is no legitimate, benevolent use of biowarfare science.

Oh, and trees don't have avenues. Mixing metaphors, as you may or may not know, is my job.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#60 - 2011-10-30 23:48:13 UTC
There is no legitimate, benevolent use of atomic weaponry science.

There is no legitimate, benevolent use of doosmday weaponry science.

There is no legitimate, benevolent use of combat AI drone science.

Shall we continue with clueless statements of that sort ? You are speaking of weapons, direct and specific applications of theoretical knowledge, which has nothing to do with it in the first place.