These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next pageLast page
 

The Righteousness of Vitoc

Author
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#1 - 2011-10-27 17:53:19 UTC
Hello.

Consider the Vitoc Method and its Righteousness. People have strong opinions about it.

The Truth is of course found in Scripture.

It Is Written:
"In the beginning all things were as one.
God parted them and breathed life into his creation
Divided the parts and gave each its place
And unto each, bestowed purpose"

"And the Lord spake, and said, Lo, my people,
Witness, for I have made the worlds of Heaven;
And these worlds I give to you, My Chosen,
So Amarr shall rule the worlds of the Heavens.

None shall stand higher than you save the Sefrim,
Who serve Me as others shall serve you,
For all things under Me serve one higher;
So Amarr shall rule the worlds of the Heavens."

"Only through many hardships
Is a man stripped to his very foundations
And in such a state
Devoid of distractions
Is his soul free to soar
And in this
He is closest to God"

These three passages are the ones that are used to declare that the Vitoc Method is Righteous, stating that the subject persons Divine Purpose is to Serve, and that the discomforts involved in the Method is in fact a means to allow the subject persons soul to soar.

Thus, Vitoc is Righteous.

Consider again the Scriptures.

It Is Written:
"I give to you the destiny of Faith,
And you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens:
Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given."

"So the Lord sent forth the Chosen,
to bring forth the light of faith
And those who embrace his love
Shall be saved by his grace
For we are his shepherds in the darkness
His Angels of Mercy."

"The word of the Lord is pure,
It is a shield for the faithful,
Brought unto men by the Angels,
As a guiding light in the darkness "

The Vitoc Method alters the subject person's perception of the universe. This means they do not perceive the Light, and cannot hear the message, and so cannot embrace God's Love, as is Written.

Thus, the reality of the Righteousness of Vitoc is revealed.

Vitoc is Unrighteous.

Vitoc is a Product of the warped thinking that is so characteristic of the Theology Council, who are consumed by lust for material wealth instead of spiritual righteousness, and as such have lost their way.

It Is Written:
"My word lies within all,
All it requires is the breath of faith,
To ignite the fire,
So the lost can find their way,
So the fallen can rise,
To take their place as my chosen,
For you are all my creation,
And are all equal in my kingdom."

This clearly shows the Vitoc Method to be unrighteous, as it denies a persons ability to become a Chosen.

Therefore, reject the false teachings of the Theology Council.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Mitara Newelle
Newelle Family
#2 - 2011-10-27 18:02:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Mitara Newelle
Valerie Valate wrote:

It Is Written:
"My word lies within all,
All it requires is the breath of faith,
To ignite the fire,
So the lost can find their way,
So the fallen can rise,
To take their place as my chosen,
For you are all my creation,
And are all equal in my kingdom."


Citing heretical texts is not going to help your agenda.


EDIT: Ah... never mind, I see now where your loyalty lies.

Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Graelyn
Aeternus Command Academy
#3 - 2011-10-27 18:12:57 UTC
Well, that was special.

Cardinal Graelyn

Amarr Loyalist of the Year - YC113

Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#4 - 2011-10-27 18:15:15 UTC
I love how scripture that puts all of humanity on an equal footing is instantly deemed heretical.

It seems to be touching a nerve or two amongst certain people, but I suppose when you have a monopoly of sorts you'll say any old crap to keep it.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Kithrus
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#5 - 2011-10-27 18:19:54 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
I love how scripture that puts all of humanity on an equal footing is instantly deemed heretical.

It seems to be touching a nerve or two amongst certain people, but I suppose when you have a monopoly of sorts you'll say any old crap to keep it.


No I'm quite sure it was because these cults were a danger to themselves and the Empire. In time it was proven true as these heretics became the bloodraiders which I'm sure everyone agrees is an evil.

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.

TheCrazyCabbage
Underworld Protection Agency
#6 - 2011-10-27 18:22:22 UTC
Kithrus wrote:

No I'm quite sure it was because these cults were a danger to themselves and the Empire. In time it was proven true as these heretics became the bloodraiders which I'm sure everyone agrees is an evil.


Except, of course, the Blood Raiders themselves
Kithrus
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#7 - 2011-10-27 18:27:10 UTC
TheCrazyCabbage wrote:
Kithrus wrote:

No I'm quite sure it was because these cults were a danger to themselves and the Empire. In time it was proven true as these heretics became the bloodraiders which I'm sure everyone agrees is an evil.


Except, of course, the Blood Raiders themselves


Well clearly, you have me there.

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.

TheCrazyCabbage
Underworld Protection Agency
#8 - 2011-10-27 18:32:01 UTC  |  Edited by: TheCrazyCabbage
My point is, i guess, it depends on what side your on, as the the virtues or drawbacks of something. For instance, some Ammarians will agree there is nothing wrong with slavery. Whereas, there are others who are vehemently against it.

Same with drugs - of all kinds - there are people who agree, and those who dont. Boosters are a good example. I know pilots who swear by it, and pretty much ingest boosters as though they were food. I, however, detest the things for what they remove from ones consciousness.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#9 - 2011-10-27 18:36:45 UTC
Kithrus wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
I love how scripture that puts all of humanity on an equal footing is instantly deemed heretical.

It seems to be touching a nerve or two amongst certain people, but I suppose when you have a monopoly of sorts you'll say any old crap to keep it.


No I'm quite sure it was because these cults were a danger to themselves and the Empire. In time it was proven true as these heretics became the bloodraiders which I'm sure everyone agrees is an evil.


Oh the cults are dangerous there's no denying that.

You know what else is dangerous, not to the Empire but to civilisation in general? Having various members of the Amarrian Empire not only threaten the eventual reclamation of all systems in New Eden, and forcing every last man woman and child into their servitude. I'm pretty sure the people of the Federation, Republic and the State all can recall what happened to the Matari many years ago, and consider a widescale version of that act "dangerous." The fact it's already happened once is bad enough mind.

The inspiration for this future plan is found in the Amarrian Holy texts, and has as much an effect on the people threatening eventual widescale domination as the Blood Raiders are motivated by the words of the Apocryphon, so surely the words of the scriptures are also heretical no?


It just comes down to the fact the Amarrian Empire likes being "the favoured sons and daughters" or however you'd like to word it, and hold onto that pedestal the same way a child in nursery grabs the toy at playtime and sits in a corner with his two friends, and refuses to share it with anyone else.


And you wonder why people are sceptical of the religion, is it really about devotion to God, or just looking better than everyone else and justifying a ton of immoral actions under the tag line of "GOD SAID I'M BETTER THAN YOU SO I CAN DO THIS."

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#10 - 2011-10-27 18:45:54 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Kithrus wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
I love how scripture that puts all of humanity on an equal footing is instantly deemed heretical.

It seems to be touching a nerve or two amongst certain people, but I suppose when you have a monopoly of sorts you'll say any old crap to keep it.


No I'm quite sure it was because these cults were a danger to themselves and the Empire. In time it was proven true as these heretics became the bloodraiders which I'm sure everyone agrees is an evil.


Oh the cults are dangerous there's no denying that.

You know what else is dangerous, not to the Empire but to civilisation in general? Having various members of the Amarrian Empire not only threaten the eventual reclamation of all systems in New Eden, and forcing every last man woman and child into their servitude. I'm pretty sure the people of the Federation, Republic and the State all can recall what happened to the Matari many years ago, and consider a widescale version of that act "dangerous." The fact it's already happened once is bad enough mind.

The inspiration for this future plan is found in the Amarrian Holy texts, and has as much an effect on the people threatening eventual widescale domination as the Blood Raiders are motivated by the words of the Apocryphon, so surely the words of the scriptures are also heretical no?


It just comes down to the fact the Amarrian Empire likes being "the favoured sons and daughters" or however you'd like to word it, and hold onto that pedestal the same way a child in nursery grabs the toy at playtime and sits in a corner with his two friends, and refuses to share it with anyone else.


And you wonder why people are sceptical of the religion, is it really about devotion to God, or just looking better than everyone else and justifying a ton of immoral actions under the tag line of "GOD SAID I'M BETTER THAN YOU SO I CAN DO THIS."


As I am not in a particularly good mood about things at the moment, I will just back this up with the fact that I have heard at least one highly placed and vocal member of a famous Capsuleer alliance say that the use of slavery is more important than the end goal of reclaiming.

Just to make sure there is some perspective on how some Amarr feel.
Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#11 - 2011-10-27 19:18:09 UTC
Kithrus wrote:

No I'm quite sure it was because these cults were a danger to themselves and the Empire. In time it was proven true as these heretics became the bloodraiders which I'm sure everyone agrees is an evil.


I do not understand why you cite a single sect in order to argue against passages which promote peace and equality. Using that same sort of reasoning I could easily argue against any number of political or social structures by invoking into the conversation their worst members.

The part does not represent the whole.


Anyway

I liked your reasoning, Valerie. You demonstrate how one could misinterpret things and view Vitoc as righteous, but then explain how it contradicts the goals as set forth by Scripture. Thank you.
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#12 - 2011-10-27 20:32:05 UTC
Graelyn wrote:
Well, that was special.


special needs for special children.
Kithrus
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#13 - 2011-10-27 21:37:06 UTC
Rek Jaiga wrote:
Kithrus wrote:

No I'm quite sure it was because these cults were a danger to themselves and the Empire. In time it was proven true as these heretics became the bloodraiders which I'm sure everyone agrees is an evil.


I do not understand why you cite a single sect in order to argue against passages which promote peace and equality. Using that same sort of reasoning I could easily argue against any number of political or social structures by invoking into the conversation their worst members.

The part does not represent the whole.


Anyway

I liked your reasoning, Valerie. You demonstrate how one could misinterpret things and view Vitoc as righteous, but then explain how it contradicts the goals as set forth by Scripture. Thank you.


That mindset opens the doors to blanket statements like 'be kind to everyone always.' I'm sure that again most people agree I don't have to be kind to someone locking onto my ship.

There's a a time and place to kindness just like there's a time and place for combat. There is a time and place for justice and a time and place for celebration.

Some people must lead and others must follow, if everyone leads then no one is following and we have chaos.

You have to look at the ramification of peoples words to the whole of society to better understand its impact. If your not careful they can take it badly and you have a huge PR mess to clean up.

No I like the approved writings much more if only because they mean exactly what they say.

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.

Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#14 - 2011-10-27 22:36:00 UTC
Mitara Newelle wrote:

Citing heretical texts is not going to help your agenda.


Even without the citation of the Apocryphon, the point remains that Vitoc clouds the perception of the subject, and thus prevents them seeing the Light, making Vitoc unrighteous.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#15 - 2011-10-27 22:46:16 UTC
Kithrus wrote:


That mindset opens the doors to blanket statements like 'be kind to everyone always.' I'm sure that again most people agree I don't have to be kind to someone locking onto my ship.

There's a a time and place to kindness just like there's a time and place for combat. There is a time and place for justice and a time and place for celebration.

Some people must lead and others must follow, if everyone leads then no one is following and we have chaos.

You have to look at the ramification of peoples words to the whole of society to better understand its impact. If your not careful they can take it badly and you have a huge PR mess to clean up.

No I like the approved writings much more if only because they mean exactly what they say.


You misunderstand what I am trying to say entirely. You say that because the Blood Raider exist, those Scriptures which are deemed heretical are neccesarily wrong and to be ignored. You fail to factor in how such Scripture could be interpreted differently by different groups and people. The Blood Raiders have their interpretations, I have mine, you have yours, and so on. When I say "the part does not represent the whole" I am referring to Sani Sabik as a whole and the Blood Raiders as a part; just because "everyone" agrees the Blood Raiders are "evil" doesn't mean Sani Sabik is a whole is equally "evil" and their interpretation of Scripture false.

Of course, the Theology Council would beg to differ. The question then become: Will you follow what you believe or what some council believes? The two need not match on all points of faith!

Yes, there are times and places for things. Yes, there must be leaders and others who follow and act. Just remember that God and the words of God are timeless, and God is ultimately the leader of each person. That man who holds office over you? He is nothing in comparison to the power of God.
Kithrus
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#16 - 2011-10-27 23:21:05 UTC
Rek Jaiga wrote:
Kithrus wrote:


That mindset opens the doors to blanket statements like 'be kind to everyone always.' I'm sure that again most people agree I don't have to be kind to someone locking onto my ship.

There's a a time and place to kindness just like there's a time and place for combat. There is a time and place for justice and a time and place for celebration.

Some people must lead and others must follow, if everyone leads then no one is following and we have chaos.

You have to look at the ramification of peoples words to the whole of society to better understand its impact. If your not careful they can take it badly and you have a huge PR mess to clean up.

No I like the approved writings much more if only because they mean exactly what they say.


You misunderstand what I am trying to say entirely. You say that because the Blood Raider exist, those Scriptures which are deemed heretical are neccesarily wrong and to be ignored. You fail to factor in how such Scripture could be interpreted differently by different groups and people. The Blood Raiders have their interpretations, I have mine, you have yours, and so on. When I say "the part does not represent the whole" I am referring to Sani Sabik as a whole and the Blood Raiders as a part; just because "everyone" agrees the Blood Raiders are "evil" doesn't mean Sani Sabik is a whole is equally "evil" and their interpretation of Scripture false.

Of course, the Theology Council would beg to differ. The question then become: Will you follow what you believe or what some council believes? The two need not match on all points of faith!

Yes, there are times and places for things. Yes, there must be leaders and others who follow and act. Just remember that God and the words of God are timeless, and God is ultimately the leader of each person. That man who holds office over you? He is nothing in comparison to the power of God.


No, you missed what I was getting at. The scripture we have is approved because it is complete and well defined. Having text that can be vague and open to vast swaths of interpretation will only cloud many issues of morality.

Is there some truth in these text? Maybe, even a fool knows to feed himself three times a day to remain healthy so I'm sure some wisdom can be gleaned from it but why expose your self to the rest running the risk of temptation or confusion.

Unless you are a theologian of the faith there is nothing to gain from reading heresy.

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.

Rek Jaiga
Teraa Matar
#17 - 2011-10-28 00:42:33 UTC
Kithrus wrote:
No, you missed what I was getting at. The scripture we have is approved because it is complete and well defined. Having text that can be vague and open to vast swaths of interpretation will only cloud many issues of morality.

Is there some truth in these text? Maybe, even a fool knows to feed himself three times a day to remain healthy so I'm sure some wisdom can be gleaned from it but why expose your self to the rest running the risk of temptation or confusion.

Unless you are a theologian of the faith there is nothing to gain from reading heresy.



Except even Scripture with the Theology Council's stamp of approval is, as you say, "vague and open" enough to be interpreted in many ways. That there are so many different cults out there is proof of this.

Why expose myself and stand up for what I believe in? I think you should understand the merits of being brave.

Seeing as I do not view such passages as heresy, I do in fact have much to gain by reading them.
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2011-10-28 01:46:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Mekhana
These Bloodraider guys always seemed like the types that watched too many vampire holo reels when they were kids.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#19 - 2011-10-28 02:38:32 UTC
Kithrus wrote:
No, you missed what I was getting at. The scripture we have is approved because it is complete and well defined. Having text that can be vague and open to vast swaths of interpretation will only cloud many issues of morality.


Not sure what's vague and open to vast interpretation about the line "All men are created equal"

It just disagrees with your viewpoint, unlike text that is "complete and well defined."

Infact I'd go as far as to say that the verse from the Apocryphon that was quoted here is on the same train of thought as the core Gallentian ideals of freedom.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Pax Thar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2011-10-28 02:49:58 UTC
So only "scriptures" that corroborate slavery and the Amarrian way of life are legit and anything that sheds the slightest doubt is heretical... I see. The fact that you need some text to tell you that injecting people with toxic chemicals in order to bend them to your will is wrong is sad in itself.
123Next pageLast page