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The best dps ship for HQ incursions
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Capt Sephiroth
#61 - 2013-08-16 14:25:51 UTC
Then how would your theory fleet of just vindi's and geddons work if you would only use sentries in sites, who would be killing frigs?! Another thing, will all targets be spawning next to you, within 30 kms of you, within the range of vindi's webs? How about looking at the whole site, all the ships that spawn, not just the ones that are within the web range, what about those 50km+ targets, how will your sentries do dps there?

And even with you having your sentries up their dps isn't near their paper dps cause they are unbonused...

I wouldn't put the cap rig in this case since even with no help you have 13 mins of cap with INM and 7mins of cap with conflags which is enough (without mwd). And no, having a cap buddy doesn't limit anything, he just sets orbit or approach on you and once you establish the connection you just have to tell him when to pop mwd on and off and thats it. I don't find anything hard or limiting there.
Cpt Tirel
Institute For Continuous Glory
#62 - 2013-08-16 15:51:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Cpt Tirel
I am sure the frigs wont be a problem, Navy Geddons have 200m3 dronespace, light drones should be fielded while the NG is moving to its position. Logistics also have drones, most of them use logistic drones but their normal reps is more than enough to just use light scout drones.
The sentries will deal close to their paper dps when used correctly, against BS/webbed targets at the proper range.

A T2 cap usage rig on a pulse NM gives you about twice as much cap time without the mwd on, i think its better than 60 dps. NM is slower than Vindis and NG's and will need to burn its mwd longer. As a sniper it may be fine but it does not have the spare low for a cap power relay the NG has and it should be using the cap rig. In public fleets using cap rig and vampires is better than having to rely on a random cap buddy, as close range dps at least.
Capt Sephiroth
#63 - 2013-08-16 16:19:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Capt Sephiroth
Its not 60 its close to 100 dps. Cause its not needed when its cap stable (well over 20mins) with a cap buddy,, even with mwd on... Or if there is a sleeper within 30km so it can start sucking cap with its double vamp mods(not stable with mwd, 3mins or so, but w/o mwd stable at 50%+)..

So you will field light drones while geddon is moving, and you said you moved roughly for 10 secs between your anchoring positions where you get your sentries out, so you will have your light drones out for 10 secs. That's not enough to kill even a single frig since by the time your drones get to the target you will already be calling them back to get your sentries out in order to be able to come close to a NM dps. Not to mention that you will not be shooting at only BS sized ships, you will be shooting at frigs as well where the dps of your sentries will be even worse...

If you need another ship to compensate for geddons inability then that makes a geddon an inferior ship unlike NM who doesn't need help to field its dps...

If 60 dps isnt much then why are you saying all the time that NG is better off when it leads in total dps by less than 60, and it wins in only that, while NM has better range, better tracking, better resists, longer targeting range, better gun damage, more cost effective since it has just 4 guns instead of geddons 7, is tad a bit slower, and has a tad lower total dps, while wining in applied and actual combat dps, so it outperforms geddon by a long shot.

Best Regards

Capt Seph
Cpt Tirel
Institute For Continuous Glory
#64 - 2013-08-16 17:09:38 UTC
Pulse NMs arent used for good reason. 800 mach is a better idea tbh, but NG's are still better than both because of the sentries and extra space for light drones. The minor advantages of the NM you point out does not make up for the sentry drones you try to trivialize.

I suggest you try out the NG if you have the skills and see for yourself how well the sentries work. I highly doubt the pulse capabilities of the NM compared to the NG in HQ sites would suprise me as much.
Ginger Barbarella
#65 - 2013-08-16 17:20:50 UTC
To summarize this thread: OP asking which is best DPS ship for Incursions, then proceeds to argue with everyone when they don't agree over her opinion that the correct answer is Navy 'geddon.

All in all, I say it's been a winner!! Next?

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Capt Sephiroth
#66 - 2013-08-16 17:35:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Capt Sephiroth
Aw my, you haven't even tried flying a NM, I hope you flown mach, but after reading what you said about 800mm mach being a better option for incursions I doubt it, and here you are claiming that geddon is a better ship solely cause of those sentry drones which semi-work only for webbed and under 30km BS sized ships and totally disregarding the fact that even if perfect situations with full paper dps being fielded a geddon would win by a less than 50dps margin, while in real situation not all your targets will be under 30, by the time a fleet of geddons is done with long range targets NM fleet would already be in the next wave, next room or bashing on a tower, and they wouldn't have to ask for help from either vindi's or logi's to field light drones cause they want to pew pew with unbonused sentry drones. Really?!

I have flown drone boats, geddons, apoc's and NM's for a while now and I am well aware how sentries and NM work compared to others. Unbonused sentries do not get that paper dps, even with double federation omnilinks and a painter I still get grazing shots on my rattler.

A machariel with 800mm's has an optimal of 4.28km+53km with hail and 5km+70km with for example phased munition. Has a gun dps of 1406 with tracking of 0.04. Mach wins only in paper dps, while his tracking and since he always fires in falloff real combat dps won't be 1406, it would be worse than a NM's.

Again mach is a strong ship, its fast, it has more agility, it has a good tank, an awesome alpha, and its main and most important ability to chose the type of damage it wants to field, however that ability doesn't matter in Incursion PVE since incursion rats have uniform resistances...

Best regards

Capt Seph
Cpt Tirel
Institute For Continuous Glory
#67 - 2013-08-17 11:51:33 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
To summarize this thread: OP asking which is best DPS ship for Incursions, then proceeds to argue with everyone when they don't agree over her opinion that the correct answer is Navy 'geddon.

All in all, I say it's been a winner!! Next?


I didnt ask what ship is the best one, i asked what people thought of having pulse geddons replace snipers to increase fleet dps.
Cpt Tirel
Institute For Continuous Glory
#68 - 2013-08-17 12:01:37 UTC
Capt Sephiroth wrote:
Aw my, you haven't even tried flying a NM, I hope you flown mach, but after reading what you said about 800mm mach being a better option for incursions I doubt it, and here you are claiming that geddon is a better ship solely cause of those sentry drones which semi-work only for webbed and under 30km BS sized ships and totally disregarding the fact that even if perfect situations with full paper dps being fielded a geddon would win by a less than 50dps margin, while in real situation not all your targets will be under 30, by the time a fleet of geddons is done with long range targets NM fleet would already be in the next wave, next room or bashing on a tower, and they wouldn't have to ask for help from either vindi's or logi's to field light drones cause they want to pew pew with unbonused sentry drones. Really?!


I never said Vindis should field light drones, and whats wrong with logis putting light drones on the drone bunny?

In the real situation the NM will loose most of its paper dps from meds because their target will be popped before they have reached it.
Capt Sephiroth
#69 - 2013-08-17 12:15:30 UTC
NM's wouldn't be using the med drones until tower bashing starts...

I made my points why NM is a better ship than a geddon time and time over and I can't really be bothered explaining and arguing anymore with someone who fails to listen to reason and objectively look at the situation... When and if you try a NM and Mach and make spreadsheets about their performance, then you will be able to discuss about which ship is better, until then read the forums and listen to what people much smarter than me are saying. They probably do not wish to argue with you for the same reason I will stop as well...

Have fun in your geddon and I wish you the best.

Capt Seph
Cpt Tirel
Institute For Continuous Glory
#70 - 2013-08-17 12:57:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Cpt Tirel
Indeed the NM wont be using its mediums on stuff other than the tower so the overall diffrence in dps the NG does compared to the NM will be much more than 50. The NG will be putting roughly the same DPS on close range waves as a Vindi does with its turrets (around 1600 dps).

To this you argue that the NM has better tracking, a little more range, but i dont buy those because the NG has no issues hitting most targets rarely getting grazing blows. More dps is always a good thing, more tracking is not always needed.
PopplerRo
#71 - 2013-08-18 02:04:16 UTC
As this thread is entitled "The best dps ship for HQ incursions" and not "why I think my Navy 'geddon is better than a Nightmare" my answer will be short and brief.

Correct answer is the vindicator.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#72 - 2013-08-29 09:52:18 UTC
PopplerRo wrote:
As this thread is entitled "The best dps ship for HQ incursions" and not "why I think my Navy 'geddon is better than a Nightmare" my answer will be short and brief.

Correct answer is the vindicator.


This.

The best part about this thread is he's a '08 character flying an n-geddon for incursions, when any sane person from '08 is either in a nightmare, vindicator, or macharial.

The nightmare with tachyons will be using INMF well after the geddon has to swap to Scorch.

The only boats you ought to use sentries on are Domis and Rattlesnakes. Everything else should be following their anchors or maneuvering to apply best dps.

I read through this thread and have yet to see a reason to bring Navy Geddons in a shield fleet other than for a new guy fresh out of noob corp who cant afford a nightmare yet.
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#73 - 2013-08-29 12:46:29 UTC
Cpt Tirel wrote:
a little more range

A little more range?

Given that the DPS values you're constantly quoting are for Conflag I would say it's a lot more range - with the 'mare able to apply INMF damage to 45km (more than double the range of the 'geddon on conflag and only a few km short of the 'geddon on Scorch (53km Optimal IIRC)).

The reason the 'geddon is not as suitable as you suggest is simply that it falls between two stools - it applies less DPS than a Vindicator at ranges of 20km or so and less DPS than a Tach'mare at 60km or so.
So, as a ship to shoot things at point blank range it's not as good at the Vindicator, and as a ship for popping Maras or Yulais... it isn't contributing at all.

In other words. If, rather than trying to work at mid-range, you chose either short range or long range you would contribute more to the fleet as a whole.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#74 - 2013-08-29 14:30:30 UTC
PopplerRo wrote:
Correct answer is the vindicator.


This.

Not today spaghetti.
Soporo
#75 - 2013-08-30 15:49:42 UTC
Cpt Tirel wrote:
Kosetzu wrote:
Cpt Tirel wrote:
They are yes, but a fleet full of Vindis would be less effective than a fleet of long range ships. Vindis are good to have, but not too many of them.

That's why you have Machariels and Nightmares as snipers as well. Of course a fleet full of just one single ship type will be bad.


I think you're missing my point here.



Unless you're botting 15 Nightmares and some logis, like that one dude does.

Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. - H.L. Mencken
Dhar'aul
Timberton Holdings
#76 - 2013-09-16 11:56:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Dhar'aul
After the tracking enhancer nerf a while ago I had to put down my much beloved 800's mach, and train them NM skills. Out of the holy trinity of much used pirate ships (Vindi, NM, mach) I'd say best ship(s) for HQ/shield incursions are:

Short range: vindi -> needs to burn in 7-9k range to apply that dps, also part of the reason why webs are so nice on vindis.
Medium and long range: tachyon NM, in order to apply the highest dps, it needs to change ammo from mulifreq to navy gamma after ~60k range, navy x-ray after ~75k, navy ultraviolet after ~90k, navy standard after ~100k, Aurora after ~115k. The 1s reload time comes in handy (well, those are the numbers for the fit I eft'd, w/o implants, your fit most likely WILL have different numbers)

Machariel, back in the day, was ok in mid range (20-45k range) when the tracking enhancers were good, but nowadays NM has taken it's spot with it's better damage projection. Arguably, 800 mach has it's niche in 10-25k range, however many a incursion rats in HQ's don't stay in that range long enough to make the niche worthwhile. Also chasing them is not feasible if you already have vindis gunning for them sanshas.

My opinion is based on a Eft of the DPS projection for a few incursion fits, of which I plugged in eft the most talked about:
http://i.imgur.com/1o6smTa.png

* The fits are on "All V", and with no implants affecting dps or damage projection.
* Mwd is off for all as to not affect the numbers.
* No resists used for the graph.
* Info boosts used, siege/armor/skirmish were not, not that it matters for EFT dps.
* Shot at a empty Dominix hull to represent the sansha.
* No drones.
* Yes, fits are not perfect, yes implants and other rigs change stuffs, however I'm confident the overall picture will not change. If you have, please post better fits, especially ones that don't have modules costing more than 1 bil/module.


Fits used:
[Machariel, dps]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Damage Control II
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer

Large Shield Extender II
Gist X-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Projectile Ambit Extension II
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Large Core Defense Field Extender II

[Machariel, 1400-mach]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Reactor Control Unit II
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
Damage Control II

Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Gist X-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Large Shield Extender II
Sensor Booster II

1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Projectile Burst Aerator II
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
[empty rig slot]

[Nightmare, tach-mare]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Damage Control II

Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Republic Fleet Large Shield Extender
Gist X-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script

Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Tachyon Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Imperial Navy Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Imperial Navy Large Remote Capacitor Transmitter

Large Energy Collision Accelerator I
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Large Core Defense Field Extender II

[Vindicator, short range]
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Damage Control II
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer

Gist X-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive
Large Shield Extender II
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field
True Sansha Stasis Webifier
Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L

Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II
[empty rig slot]