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One major problem with removing OGBs.
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maCH'EttE
Perkone
Caldari State
#81 - 2013-08-06 17:26:38 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Small gang PvP has been suffering for a long time now.

It is only outrageous because until now small gangs could attempt to fight bigger fleets on equal footing. Both sides could get the same game changing bonuses from gang links.

With this change, bigger blobs can have these gang changing bonuses much much easier than a small gang could ever hope, not only will the blobs have more numbers (which is fine) they will also have game changing bonuses that the small gang cannot (is not fine).



You're having the same arguments the true solo players without boosting alts have against your "solo" play style.

Boomerang effect.

Please be so kind to explain what a true solo player is.
Lets get some facts out, links are a mechanic of the system that gives benefits. If you use that logi and which the logic is pretty solid and you can not argue it.
Than any other things such as boosters, implants, scout alts, deadspace or other shiny mods, are also mechanics of the game.
Do you want to know what true solo is.
An ibis or anyother noob ship, with the same mods given by ccp, no scout, no boosters, no drugs, no drones, no nothing.
If you are looking for true solo, than hop into your freshly given ibis and pvp.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#82 - 2013-08-06 17:31:20 UTC
maCH'EttE wrote:
Please be so kind to explain what a true solo player is.
Lets get some facts out, links are a mechanic of the system that gives benefits. If you use that logi and which the logic is pretty solid and you can not argue it.
Than any other things such as boosters, implants, scout alts, deadspace or other shiny mods, are also mechanics of the game.
Do you want to know what true solo is.
An ibis or anyother noob ship, with the same mods given by ccp, no scout, no boosters, no drugs, no drones, no nothing.
If you are looking for true solo, than hop into your freshly given ibis and pvp.



bestposteva.jpj

And I thought I could be a good forum troll, you just proved I haven't tried hard enough. Lol

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
maCH'EttE
Perkone
Caldari State
#83 - 2013-08-06 17:31:40 UTC
ConranAntoni wrote:
Hilarious thread is hilarious. The cascade of tears and bullshit is always amazing.

I especially love how OGB fans never seem to realise the falacy of "small gang pvp" and having a toon sit at a safe providing a boost. Leaving a toon in a pos and only staying in one system constitutes "l33t peeveepee" right. Hes a part of your gang right, stop being a whiney ***** and use him.

Or learn to buy implants. Or figure out counters, strategies or just generally stop being terrible at EvE and crying like a whiney, snotty nosed brat your **** fit Cynabel can no long outrun most other ****.

But please, by all means, continue this hilarious debacle of a thread with the terrible posts, it's awesome.

Go back to AX-DOT and kill another Battleship with 300+ people.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#84 - 2013-08-06 17:32:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
ConranAntoni wrote:
Hilarious thread is hilarious. The cascade of tears and bullshit is always amazing.

I especially love how OGB fans never seem to realise the falacy of "small gang pvp" and having a toon sit at a safe providing a boost. Leaving a toon in a pos and only staying in one system constitutes "l33t peeveepee" right. Hes a part of your gang right, stop being a whiney ***** and use him.

Or learn to buy implants. Or figure out counters, strategies or just generally stop being terrible at EvE and crying like a whiney, snotty nosed brat your **** fit Cynabel can no long outrun most other ****.

But please, by all means, continue this hilarious debacle of a thread with the terrible posts, it's awesome.



Ah, the usual guy that doesn't even read the thread then comes in spouting "ooooh i love the tears mmm tears"
Learn what tears are.


Tell me to get counters?

Why didn't you anti-OGB clowns just counter the OGB instead of whining so hard for its removal?
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#85 - 2013-08-06 17:37:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
So long as we're using weird logic, let's go with moving boosts to grid is a buff to small gang PvP!

Think about it. If you're facing someone who is using off grid boosts, when are you more likely to be able to counter it: when you're solo/small gang, or when you're in a giant blob? The latter, of course, since sparing one out of 100 ships to be a probing ship is perfectly fine in order to threaten the enemy booster in any way whatsoever (no guaranteed catch!). If you're solo, that's impossible (who runs with an expanded probe launcher on their solo ship?). If you're in a small gang, giving up 1 out of 10 people to boosting is far more of a trade-off than what a blob has to make.

With boosts being on grid, you need just two tools to find their booster: d-scan, and your overview. All ships come equipped with those, eliminating the need for having a probing pilot, and enabling gangs to replace him.

Net relative gain?

Blob: 100/100 - 99/100 = 0.01
Small gang: 10/10 - 9/10 = 0.1
Solo: 1/1 - 0/1 = 1

Moving boosts to on-grid relatively buffs solo 100x as much as it buffs a 100-man blob.

How's that for logic~

Move boosts on-grid! Buff solo PvP!

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Gul Amarr
Orange County Cruisers
#86 - 2013-08-06 17:38:25 UTC
It's funny how people keep stating that OGB enables people to fight larger numbers and increase their target spectrum, whereas they're just as well used to kill real solo PvPers.

Will they turn the links off if they engage a single ship of comparable strength?

I guess not.

I agree however that the way links currently work should change - the blob doesn't need more buffing in eve.

Command destroyers/frigs should be added, the number of ships a booster can boost should be limited and boosters should give diminishing returns the more ships he boosts.

OGB should go asap however. It's pay to win at its worst and the final nail in the coffin of solo pvp.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2013-08-06 17:44:08 UTC
Gul Amarr wrote:
I

OGB should go asap however. It's pay to win at its worst and the final nail in the coffin of solo pvp.





You may need to look at what pay to win actually means.
embrel
BamBam Inc.
#88 - 2013-08-06 17:53:54 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
ConranAntoni wrote:
Hilarious thread is hilarious. The cascade of tears and bullshit is always amazing.

I especially love how OGB fans never seem to realise the falacy of "small gang pvp" and having a toon sit at a safe providing a boost. Leaving a toon in a pos and only staying in one system constitutes "l33t peeveepee" right. Hes a part of your gang right, stop being a whiney ***** and use him.

Or learn to buy implants. Or figure out counters, strategies or just generally stop being terrible at EvE and crying like a whiney, snotty nosed brat your **** fit Cynabel can no long outrun most other ****.

But please, by all means, continue this hilarious debacle of a thread with the terrible posts, it's awesome.



Ah, the usual guy that doesn't even read the thread then comes in spouting "ooooh i love the tears mmm tears"
Learn what tears are.


Tell me to get counters?

Why didn't you anti-OGB clowns just counter the OGB instead of whining so hard for its removal?


As I'm noobish I guess I may ask. How do I do that under the assumption I'm all alone?
Just fight if local shows one other person max?

What about bannin OGB into 0?
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#89 - 2013-08-06 17:54:26 UTC
Gul Amarr wrote:
It's funny how people keep stating that OGB enables people to fight larger numbers and increase their target spectrum, whereas they're just as well used to kill real solo PvPers.

Will they turn the links off if they engage a single ship of comparable strength?

I guess not.

I agree however that the way links currently work should change - the blob doesn't need more buffing in eve.

Command destroyers/frigs should be added, the number of ships a booster can boost should be limited and boosters should give diminishing returns the more ships he boosts.

OGB should go asap however. It's pay to win at its worst and the final nail in the coffin of solo pvp.






Then support the complete removal of gang links. Everyone wins.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#90 - 2013-08-06 17:59:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
Onictus wrote:
Gul Amarr wrote:
I

OGB should go asap however. It's pay to win at its worst and the final nail in the coffin of solo pvp.





You may need to look at what pay to win actually means.


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win
Quote:
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then[sic] everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.


Let's see...

  • "Buy better gear" -- pay for new account, buy OGB alt. As stated previously in the thread, OGB alts don't count against "solo", as they are simply a game mechanic, like scrams and webs.
  • "Makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying" -- bad grammar aside, a few month old Atron with boosts can kill a near-full skills other frigate without boosts. Another example is "being on even footing" with much larger fleets.
  • (My own addendum:) "Requires little to no special effort or risk, and is very hard or impossible to counter" -- No explanation needed. 'Theoretically counterable if you do X, Y, and Z' is a long shot off of 'marginal chances to counter if you do X, Y and Z, and your opponent is dumb as a brick'.


If you are ~super elite~, pay for your accounts using PLEX, and could afford the 10 bil ISK startup cost of an OGB alt, congratulations, the first point doesn't apply to you. Other than that? OGB alts are practically "gold ammo", whether they're applied to a fleet or to your super pro solo PvP.

Or, y'know, gold thrusters, gold shields, gold armor, and gold ewar.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#91 - 2013-08-06 18:05:46 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:

Proposed Idea: A smaller gang wants to fight a bigger gang, they jump in and realize the bigger gang has a massively tanked command ship giving off all types of bonuses. They no longer can use an off grid boost so they don't receive any bonuses to counter the bigger gang, The bigger gang effectively has more ships, goes faster, scrams further, and tanks harder than the smaller gang. How is that any better?


Big gangs get to bring force multipliers because they have more ships. If the smaller gang feels they have enough ships for a command ship to be worth bringing, then they can still do so. This puts command ships on the same level as ewar or logistics. They all have to be on the field. I don't see what the problem is.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2013-08-06 18:07:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Gul Amarr wrote:
I

OGB should go asap however. It's pay to win at its worst and the final nail in the coffin of solo pvp.





You may need to look at what pay to win actually means.


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win
Quote:
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then[sic] everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.


Let's see...

  • "Buy better gear" -- pay for new account, buy OGB alt. As stated previously in the thread, OGB alts don't count against "solo", as they are simply a game mechanic, like scrams and webs.
  • "Makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying" -- bad grammar aside, a few month old Atron with boosts can kill a near-full skills other frigate without boosts. Another example is "being on even footing" with much larger fleets.
  • (My own addendum:) "Requires little to no special effort or risk, and is very hard or impossible to counter" -- No explanation needed. 'Theoretically counterable if you do X, Y, and Z' is a long shot off of 'marginal chances to counter if you do X, Y and Z, and your opponent is dumb as a brick'.


If you are ~super elite~, pay for your accounts using PLEX, and could afford the 10 bil ISK startup cost of an OGB alt, congratulations, the first point doesn't apply to you. Other than that? OGB alts are practically "gold ammo", whether they're applied to a fleet or to your super pro solo PvP.

Or, y'know, gold thrusters, gold shields, gold armor, and gold ewar.


LOL


If you had that much skill you wouldn't be bitching about OGB.

....and no its not pay to win, anyone can train up a booster alt, and you can do it on plex quite easily.......and no they aren't close to ten bil. maybe like 3 bil if you train your own toon.

If you buy one, particularly right now, you are a moron.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#93 - 2013-08-06 18:09:46 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:

Proposed Idea: A smaller gang wants to fight a bigger gang, they jump in and realize the bigger gang has a massively tanked command ship giving off all types of bonuses. They no longer can use an off grid boost so they don't receive any bonuses to counter the bigger gang, The bigger gang effectively has more ships, goes faster, scrams further, and tanks harder than the smaller gang. How is that any better?


Big gangs get to bring force multipliers because they have more ships. If the smaller gang feels they have enough ships for a command ship to be worth bringing, then they can still do so. This puts command ships on the same level as ewar or logistics. They all have to be on the field. I don't see what the problem is.

You could move logistics off the field, to buff small gang PvP. Not having to have vulnerable logistics ships on the field evens out the field between small gangs and blobs because small gangs can always have logi in a safe spot.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#94 - 2013-08-06 18:13:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
Onictus wrote:

LOL


If you had that much skill you wouldn't be bitching about OGB.

Ad hominem, nice.

If I had that much skill I'd be regularly killing boosted ships, and bitching about OGB so my targets and I can be on a level playing field so I kill them more. Oh hey, I'm doing both of those things.

Onictus wrote:
....and no its not pay to win, anyone can train up a booster alt, and you can do it on plex quite easily.......and no they aren't close to ten bil. maybe like 3 bil if you train your own toon.

If you buy one, particularly right now, you are a moron.

Sue me for not living in the Character Bazaar. Also, I already addressed that, wrong price notwithstanding.
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

If you are ~super elite~, pay for your accounts using PLEX, and could afford the 10 bil ISK startup cost of an OGB alt, congratulations, the first point doesn't apply to you.


Sigh, where's Tippia when you need a pedantic adversarial know-it-all? She's much better at it than I am.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2013-08-06 18:19:20 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
Then there's always solo PvP where you are one person flying one spaceship.


I don't understand. Are you referring to PVE?


You should try PvP in lowsec, flying frigates sometime. Just for kicks, head into the smaller Faction Warfare sites. You can, in fact, find PvP that involves just your ship and one other ship. Of course you have to be quick and/or tricky about it, since more often than not the other guy will flee the moment something more dangerous than an NPC appears on D-scan..


This. T1 frigates are cheap to fit and fly. As long as you find that 1v1 fight against another T1 frigate you can learn that way. If you try to go against anything else then you better not try to give a fight.

Running away from a fight where you are out manned or out gunned is a smart tactical decision. I took out a Imperial Navy Slicer once with a basic tackle fit rifter with an active armor tank but only because the other person was over confident. I caught him on the warp in beacon and after that it was a race of dps vs tank.
Saeri Averes-Vith
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2013-08-06 18:44:50 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
This is a big "**** you" to all small gang PvPers out there. Why buff the already too strong blobs?

How are you going to fix this CCP? Or are you just saying "if you want to win you have to blob"?

If this is honestly their best idea I'd rather have bonuses removed all together.



The only big "**** you" I see is to the people refusing to screw up their gameplay fun by slugging around OGBs.
Doesn't matter whether those people are in blobs, small gangs, or solo.

Being outnumbered can be coped with - if you're unwillingly engaged against a larger force it's typically your own fault, but unless you know your local by heart you don't know if your opponent is boosted until it's already too late.

Personally, I would be already happy if OGB were shown on killmails, to sort out the fake "solo" players.
Having all bonuses removed wouldn't be bad either, but it's never going to happen.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#97 - 2013-08-06 18:46:18 UTC
Caviar Liberta wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
Then there's always solo PvP where you are one person flying one spaceship.


I don't understand. Are you referring to PVE?


You should try PvP in lowsec, flying frigates sometime. Just for kicks, head into the smaller Faction Warfare sites. You can, in fact, find PvP that involves just your ship and one other ship. Of course you have to be quick and/or tricky about it, since more often than not the other guy will flee the moment something more dangerous than an NPC appears on D-scan..


This. T1 frigates are cheap to fit and fly. As long as you find that 1v1 fight against another T1 frigate you can learn that way. If you try to go against anything else then you better not try to give a fight.

Running away from a fight where you are out manned or out gunned is a smart tactical decision. I took out a Imperial Navy Slicer once with a basic tackle fit rifter with an active armor tank but only because the other person was over confident. I caught him on the warp in beacon and after that it was a race of dps vs tank.


Another happy customer.

Kahega, I envy you today.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#98 - 2013-08-06 18:54:13 UTC
Saeri Averes-Vith wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
This is a big "**** you" to all small gang PvPers out there. Why buff the already too strong blobs?

How are you going to fix this CCP? Or are you just saying "if you want to win you have to blob"?

If this is honestly their best idea I'd rather have bonuses removed all together.



The only big "**** you" I see is to the people refusing to screw up their gameplay fun by slugging around OGBs.
Doesn't matter whether those people are in blobs, small gangs, or solo.

Being outnumbered can be coped with - if you're unwillingly engaged against a larger force it's typically your own fault, but unless you know your local by heart you don't know if your opponent is boosted until it's already too late.

Personally, I would be already happy if OGB were shown on killmails, to sort out the fake "solo" players.
Having all bonuses removed wouldn't be bad either, but it's never going to happen.



Even if its shown on KMs, it won't stop them.


They will just brag less.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#99 - 2013-08-06 19:14:35 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Saeri Averes-Vith wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
This is a big "**** you" to all small gang PvPers out there. Why buff the already too strong blobs?

How are you going to fix this CCP? Or are you just saying "if you want to win you have to blob"?

If this is honestly their best idea I'd rather have bonuses removed all together.



The only big "**** you" I see is to the people refusing to screw up their gameplay fun by slugging around OGBs.
Doesn't matter whether those people are in blobs, small gangs, or solo.

Being outnumbered can be coped with - if you're unwillingly engaged against a larger force it's typically your own fault, but unless you know your local by heart you don't know if your opponent is boosted until it's already too late.

Personally, I would be already happy if OGB were shown on killmails, to sort out the fake "solo" players.
Having all bonuses removed wouldn't be bad either, but it's never going to happen.



Even if its shown on KMs, it won't stop them.


They will just brag less.


Wich is why they should either go away or be on grid so you can deal with them during the actual engagement.

Having to disengage + D-scan + probe for warpin + landing a point + dps it down before the engagement become about what will be on grid is ********.

The falcon alt was either already on grid or had to warp-in before he jams you, same for any form of e-war/logi alt. The OGB can make a difference while sillting 100 AU away from the fighting.
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#100 - 2013-08-06 19:29:07 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Removing OGB will hurt the smaller gang in a small v large engagement more so than the larger gang.

A 100 man fleet fighting a 10 man fleet is far less likely to loose their on-grid booster in an engagement. Effectively, said 100 man fleet will have the booster in effect for the entire fight while the 10 man fleet will be far more likely to loose theirs early on. This provides a force multiplier to the 100 man fleet against the 10 man fleet.

It's not a case of [insert blob entity here] not being able to use OGB against [insert smaller entity here]. If on grid boosting goes through, [insert blob entity here] will be able to use on-grid boosts with far less risk than [insert smaller entity here], thus providing [insert blob entity here] with a potential force multiplier over [insert smaller entity here].

But, removing OGB will also help solo tremendously. Go into any facwar systems and watch dscan. You will see tengus, legions, and lokis everywhere. These ships serve one function and one function alone. To provide easy wins against individuals and small groups that don't use OGB's.