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[Odyssey 1.1] Jump Clone skills *Updated with Advanced Infomorph Psychology*

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Reatu Krentor
Void Spiders
#201 - 2013-08-06 00:39:54 UTC
Would it be impossible to change the cooldown based on distance of the clonejump? Say, in same station it's only a few hours of cooldown, same constellation, it's 6 hours, same region 12 hours and beyond that 24 hours?
Endeavour Starfleet
#202 - 2013-08-06 00:58:59 UTC
While I am glad to see this change. This is far too little of a reduction and does little to combat the larger issue. These timers prevent PVP and while less than an hour per jump would lead to all sorts of issues. In my opinion setting the bar at 12 hours at lvl 5 would be a far better balance and can be done now. If things really go wrong with this. You can nerf it later tho with the proper data in hand rather than guesses that it would be abused.
MacKael
Perkone
Caldari State
#203 - 2013-08-06 00:59:04 UTC
With the whole jump clone thing. I think time cool down is pointless really. And lets not even get into force projection. Thats just a joke. But if you made clones 2x per skill level and, and did something like a "time increase" between next jumps. Something like 100% time increase between next jump. Starting at like one hour, going to two etc etc. and you could even make a distance limit to clone jumps (for those too much force projection guys) PRO TIP alts have already ruined that. Back to point clone jumps could be something similar to say a Capitol jump or like say 15 jumps examples numbers only. Add that with the heat up timer and it might be better then the system we have now. Any or all of these ideas please feel free to use mix match expand etc.
Kossaw
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#204 - 2013-08-06 00:59:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Kossaw
So'Cari wrote:
Kossaw wrote:
TBH, its a good plan. I like the idea of it being a rank 1 or 2 skill. But with the proposal as it stands right now, why bother training more than skill level 2 or 3. The only thing this propsal aims to do is help prevent players getting stuck outside their regular play hours on a weekday evening.

So this is NOT the solution we have been asking for for a very long time. It's a stop gap solution for a different problem.

So do you think adding a skill is a better solution than just reducing the default timer for everyone?

Edit: It's a common enough point that I expect we'll get Rise/CCP's opinion at some point. It would be good to hear from players though. If you like the skill addition, why is it better than the alternatives, not just better than what we have right now?


Skills are the basic game mechanism for controlling player choice and consequences. Of course this should be a skill. The problem with learning skills was that the penalty for NOT having them was HUGE for any long term player so you had no choice but to train them at a time when your character was brand new. That ruined early game play for new players. This situation is completely different.

Training "jump clone reduction time" to L5 is nothing like as important. This ability is of little use to a low SP player with little ISK, so there is no need to train it. The choice to train only to level 3 or 4 would be quite viable for most characters.

WTB : An image in my signature
MacKael
Perkone
Caldari State
#205 - 2013-08-06 01:03:28 UTC
Darirol wrote:
the biggest problem in eve atm is force projection in all forms, including instant travel like pod express and clone jump.

i cant see how shorten the timer for clone jumping helps to reduce this problem.

eve is allready way too small. not because we dont have enough systems, its because you can move everywhere within minutes. personaly iam against everything that speeds up travel even more.




Dude alts ruined this not jump clones, and with the loop holes of suicide jumps come on. Cutting jump time is a good thing and read my above comment. This system is broken and worthless. Sort of like the CSM
Ole Volan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#206 - 2013-08-06 01:03:57 UTC
I think this is a good step. I don't have a problem tying it to a skill as JC's themselves are tied to a skill. It makes sense that buffing them would need additional skills.

I would, though, like to see 2 additional skills added.

Advanced Informorph Synchronizing would have a high multiplier and add up to an additional 5 hours reduction to the timer.

Informorph Alternation would allow for in-station clone swapping. Level one would have a 12 hour cooldown, with the cooldown reducing as the skill level increases.

What do you think?
X'ret
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#207 - 2013-08-06 01:11:11 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Glad that generally this is something people want. I'm not surprised there's different opinions on exactly how much this timer should be reduced, but for now we will stick with this time range and we can see how it fits.

As far as tying it to a skill, there's good arguments for and against. I'll have a chat with some other designers and make sure we're all on the same page before shipping it.

As usual, thanks for the input.


I like the idea, thanks! 1.5-2hours/level would be the best but its better than nothing..

Any plans at advanced infomorp psychology or local station jc switching? I live in a system with 3 stations for long time, nearby systems has only one station, have 6 jc's so i store them in 4 systems.., bit annoying in situation. Pirate
Ivory Kantenu
Apotheosis.
#208 - 2013-08-06 01:16:57 UTC
Make it 2.4 / 4.8 / 7.2 / 9.6 / 12 and you might get somewhere.

5 hours is basically ' I'm sleeping so I'll worry about it tomorrow' time, instead of useful time.

[i]Learn the basics of Wormhole Selling: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=101693&find=unread[/i]
Mazer
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#209 - 2013-08-06 01:21:56 UTC
Great idea!

Please make it useful by drastically increasing the amount of time you gain per level. Smile

http://mazeve.blogspot.com/
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#210 - 2013-08-06 01:47:05 UTC
Darirol wrote:
the biggest problem in eve atm is force projection in all forms, including instant travel like pod express and clone jump.

i cant see how shorten the timer for clone jumping helps to reduce this problem.

eve is allready way too small. not because we dont have enough systems, its because you can move everywhere within minutes. personaly iam against everything that speeds up travel even more.



It's odd to say eve is small. For conquorable space, with jump bridges, cynos, Titan bridges now clone jumping, known space is very small.

It also is the fastest way to get people into the action. Now in small groups, this isn't a problem. It's a massive issue when it comes to massive blobs which generally no one likes (unless your winning).

They came out with wormhole space that has no projection, no cynos, super carriers, no clone jumps or jump bridges, and its vacant by kspace means. It's scary, intimidating, you can't ram fleets of thousands against each other. Heck it's what allot of people want in nullsec, a hunt, smaller fleets battling it out....

But it's not like that either. In wormhole space, you have to hunt for a fight. In nullsec, put a lightbulb up and your there in a few seconds.

Cyno's, jump bridges, clone jump, Titan bridges... There CCP's version of the WOW raid finder/battlegrounds.. Want to kill people, get a group, say "cyno", and instantly jump into pvp. It's flawed, but its been flawed for years and people still use them. It puts people into the fight immediately...

Projection is a problem, but its the unlimited use of it which is a bigger problem.

Yaay!!!!
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#211 - 2013-08-06 02:08:26 UTC
Proper change, good work Rise!
Zaxix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#212 - 2013-08-06 02:17:13 UTC
It's hard to give feedback if you've limited all discussion to a non-existent skill you've already said isn't likely to change.

Nice start. Something is better than nothing. But just looking at votes in the reasonable things thread shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that significantly lowering the timer is what the community wants.

Thanks for chipping away at it though.

Bokononist

 
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#213 - 2013-08-06 02:27:56 UTC
1 hour is meh.
make it 7.5% time reduction per level and it would be better.

There is no Bob.

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Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#214 - 2013-08-06 02:34:10 UTC
Perfect, if you play at the same time each day now you're not screwed.

Add to this the ability to store all your clones in one station and swap between them at will and it'll be perfect, allowing quick change of fleet composition as well as limiting force projection.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Serenis
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#215 - 2013-08-06 02:37:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Serenis
I don't think this solves the issue fully. It lessens the chance you will be stuck waiting for a clone, but doesn't really facilitate what I think Jump Clones could be used for. I know there are a lot of arguments that it will shorten travel, but it's not like you can pick any destination or take cargo with you. You may want to jump to high sec quickly to manage a market order, or earn some ISK. Maybe move to the other side of new Eden to play with a different group of people, and of course manage different implants for different ops. I would probably do a wider range of activities in a play session if I wasn't bound by how rigid the current system is. I'm not going to do any of those activities if I have to spend half an hour in a shuttle each way. It's also annoying to JC somewhere and find you have to buy a ship to shuttle back if you are suddenly needed elsewhere.

I suppose the best way I can put it is that I always hesitate to push the button on a jumping to a clone because I feel like I'm trading some convenience now for more inconvenience later.

Anyway I'd like to suggest an alternative to shortening the time by approaching the problem differently. A jump clone activation pool and availability queue.


  • With no skill trained each character gets one clone in the pool.
  • This is increased by one for each level of the new skill to a max of six.
  • When you jump you use one of your pooled jumps.
  • This is then takes 24 (arbitrary/legacy amount...this number will be the main balance point) hours to recharge.
  • If you jump again in that 24 hour period that slot is added to the end of the recharge queue, taking a further 24 hours after the current slot is charged etc.


This way you could jump up to six time in a single day, but you would have to wait 6 days with NO JUMPING to be able to do that again. In the worst case scenario you still have a clone every 24 hours as it is now, and not having the skill trained also remains the same as it is now. It's still possible to get stuck waiting for a clone in this system, but it would allow flexibility to use clones more conveniently, while still requiring the player to budget how they use their clones. the player is never penalised for jumping, just jumping excessively or without due care to budgeting their jump pool. If this is too forgiving you can lengthen the 24 hour recharge or stack a time penalty on each additional clone in the queue to balance.
Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
#216 - 2013-08-06 02:51:35 UTC
Serenis makes a good point.

Now with 100% less Troll.
Viribus
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#217 - 2013-08-06 02:56:39 UTC
Should be no cooldown for jumping to a JC in the same station, makes life a lot easier and doesn't make the game any smaller.

watch me be a scurb and get owned
YoYoMommy
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#218 - 2013-08-06 02:58:27 UTC
If you are trying to do it so you can switch more in one day, a 5 hour max reduction will not do this effectively. You need to be able to switch while you are still awake or it's still the same as before.
Dring Dingle
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#219 - 2013-08-06 03:09:30 UTC
2 hours per level. not 1

would bring it down to 14 hours at level 5. Make it a 5x skill.

Much better.


Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#220 - 2013-08-06 03:34:40 UTC
Best update in a long time :)

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.