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Skill training and UNReasonable things
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#61 - 2013-08-02 16:10:37 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
You overlook the fact that the skill system is a selling point and the que takes a huge bite out of a very big problem encountered with MMOs.

That problem is the "he who has the least life wins" problem.
Eh, no, I'm not overlooking it. Whatever gave you that idea? Ugh Quite the opposite: I am fully aware of that problem and of how the skill queue — even at a 24h length — solves that pretty much entirely. For one, I understand how the setup means that you don't have to log in every day.

Quote:
Not everybody can be a neckbeard who can log on all day every day.
And both the skill system and the skill queue ensures that they don't get any particular advantage (as far as character skill goes, at least).

Quote:
I might have seen you in WoW
No.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2013-08-02 16:13:11 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
Tippia, you're faux arguments do get tiring after a while. What you're implying here is not what I stated, you know it, I know, others know it. Able to play, unable able to play are mutually exclusive. So yeah, it does penalize people who for reasons unto themselves are unable to play or get on every 24hrs.
No, it doesn't, because the skill queue means you don't have to log in ever 24h. That's where your entire reasoning careens off the tracks.

And just because it is absolutely impossible for some to get caught up that one time for some OOG reason doesn't mean that at other times, and/or for other players, that supposed “quick skill change” doesn't lead to a surprise session.

Quote:
It's a selfish argument from you & others who somehow put a priority on the game over rl, tbh.
…you mean kind of like how “adjust the game to how I [don't] want to play it” is based on nothing but selfishness. If it's so small and quick that they stand zero change of getting caught up in the game, then it's so small and quick that doing it within 24h of the end of a skill is something that is trivially included in the day. No RL kids will be hurt in the process, I promise.

…in fact, that's the kind of “not right now” problems the skill queue has already solved perfectly with its 24h length.

Yes, you do have to log in religiously to set your queue, especially skilling a new direction. Sure, when you get to level 4's 5's you don't but that still isn't really a reason not to extend the queue.

As to "adjust the game to how I [don't] want to play it", there are a plethora of examples where the game has been altered to this effect. The original non-queued skill training, the original click-fest that was PI, the whole HS has too much income arguement to which it has been nerfed repeatedly, the noctis, the suspect flags, the CSM for christ's sake all changes to the game to adjust it to how people want to play it. You're arguing against yourself Tippia.

Don't ban me, bro!
Revman Zim
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#63 - 2013-08-02 16:18:34 UTC
I am going to echo a lot of the previous posts regarding the Skill Queue.

It is fine at 24 hours.

It is MUCH better than the alarm clock days.

It forces people to actually log in to the game for skill changes, thereby creating content.

The original intent of the 24hr queue was to allow people to work, live and play without being tied to a skill change clock. That problem has been solved by the queue change and NO further changes are necessary.

If you have to move, or go on vacation, or have someother RL issue, put in Battleship 5 or some other long skill that is in your plan.


BOTTOM LINE: EVE Online would NOT be a better game if you were able to import your EVEMON skill plan into the queue and log off.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#64 - 2013-08-02 16:24:11 UTC
Revman Zim wrote:

It forces people ...




I stopped right there.

What is the source of this trend that everybody likes seeing people getting "forced"? Is it reality TV? Is it from watching too many episodes of "COPS" ? Is it a response to learned helplessness of modern living?

We should add totalitarianism to the list of extreme mindsets that plague the world.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#65 - 2013-08-02 16:25:02 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Yes, you do have to log in religiously to set your queue, especially skilling a new direction.
Whenever you want for a day at the end of the current queue (or some time roughly once every other day if you're trying a new direction) doesn't strike me as particularly “religiously”. It's still not every day, on the hour, as some are trying to suggest.

Quote:
Sure, when you get to level 4's 5's you don't but that still isn't really a reason not to extend the queue.
…which you do with the span of the 24h queue, so it's never really a problem, and the reason to extend the queue is still that it removes and reduces serendipitous gameplay.

Quote:
As to "adjust the game to how I [don't] want to play it", there are a plethora of examples where the game has been altered to this effect. The original non-queued skill training, the original click-fest that was PI
Not really, no. Those were examples that don't boil down to subjecting players to adverse health effects, be it harmful sleeping patterns or RSI, not of players wanting to progress without playing the game. In fact, they are pretty much the exact opposite: in both cases, you very explicitly and deliberately still have to log in and manage your activities — you just don't have to adjust your entire daily schedule (and health insurance) around it.

Quote:
You're arguing against yourself Tippia.
Not really, no.
brinelan
#66 - 2013-08-02 16:57:54 UTC
How hard is it to set a long skill to start at the end of the 24h skill queue? You can fit as many skills in the queue that will *start* within 24 hours, it dosent matter if it will end outside of that timeframe.

When I started there was no skill queue, I would train up short skills while I was playing and set something longer before logging off.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#67 - 2013-08-02 17:16:52 UTC
The only thing that sometime bother me are the skill that takes just over a day to train. It sometime mess up with my IRL schedule so I've lost some SP over the months but thats barely significant in the end. 24 hours is enough.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#68 - 2013-08-02 17:18:52 UTC
brinelan wrote:
How hard is it to set a long skill to start at the end of the 24h skill queue? You can fit as many skills in the queue that will *start* within 24 hours, it dosent matter if it will end outside of that timeframe.

When I started there was no skill queue, I would train up short skills while I was playing and set something longer before logging off.



How dare you suggest any amount of thought and/or effort in anything. You must be knew to these forums! Twisted
Welsige
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2013-08-02 17:32:57 UTC
You have the rigth to login into the game. Not the right to fill all the queue.

You may rent a Room, but to take a **** you gotta be in the room to do so.

Same logic.


I wouldnt be against a skill that would extend the queue from 24 to maybe 48 hours though.

[b]~ 10.058 ~

Free The Mittani[/b]
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2013-08-02 17:35:06 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Klandi wrote:
In the recent "Reasonable things" it touches on skill training timers and the latest proposal is to increase them to 48/72 hrs.

What are you lot thinking with?
Good question. There's really no need to increase it beyond 24h.


There's really no reason not to increase it either.


In application development, when no pressing reason exists for either case, the following inequality always holds sway:

Do not change code > change code just because you can

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
P3ps1 Max
Deaths Consortium
Pandemic Horde
#71 - 2013-08-02 19:04:02 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Klandi wrote:
In the recent "Reasonable things" it touches on skill training timers and the latest proposal is to increase them to 48/72 hrs.

What are you lot thinking with?
Good question. There's really no need to increase it beyond 24h.



No need ? derp
Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
#72 - 2013-08-02 19:09:38 UTC
De'Veldrin wrote:


In application development, when no pressing reason exists for either case, the following inequality always holds sway:

Do not change code > change code just because you can


So what about in app dev, if a concept that was good at the start was found later on to be a hindrance and not good for the application later on? So many apps have an involvement lifecycle where stuff changed - and change IS a reason to re-think and re-code. This is where you get the adage If it ain't broke don't fix it. When software has been around for 10yrs it IS broke!!!

I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking
Mr Pragmatic
#73 - 2013-08-02 19:29:28 UTC
I liked OPs post just so I could be cool and edgy.

Super cali hella yolo swaga dopeness.  -Yoloswaggins, in the fellowship of the bling.
brinelan
#74 - 2013-08-02 20:13:10 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
brinelan wrote:
How hard is it to set a long skill to start at the end of the 24h skill queue? You can fit as many skills in the queue that will *start* within 24 hours, it dosent matter if it will end outside of that timeframe.

When I started there was no skill queue, I would train up short skills while I was playing and set something longer before logging off.



How dare you suggest any amount of thought and/or effort in anything. You must be knew to these forums! Twisted


lol what was I thinking Big smile
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#75 - 2013-08-02 20:22:42 UTC


So it's normal for people to see a rule that they didn't pass, nor have the power to enforce, and then go running up to it, stand with it, and get off on reminding other people that the rule is the rule.

Wow.


You people prove to be pathetic. No wonder RL democracy failed.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
#76 - 2013-08-02 20:30:42 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:


So it's normal for people to see a rule that they didn't pass, nor have the power to enforce, and then go running up to it, stand with it, and get off on reminding other people that the rule is the rule.

Wow.


You people prove to be pathetic. No wonder RL democracy failed.


Should a question mark be in there somewhere or are you just sounding off like what they do in a non-democratical country

I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#77 - 2013-08-02 20:32:24 UTC
I want more! I want more! And then when I get it I want more of more! More on top of more! More more more!

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Welsige
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2013-08-02 20:38:52 UTC
Klandi wrote:
De'Veldrin wrote:


In application development, when no pressing reason exists for either case, the following inequality always holds sway:

Do not change code > change code just because you can


So what about in app dev, if a concept that was good at the start was found later on to be a hindrance and not good for the application later on? So many apps have an involvement lifecycle where stuff changed - and change IS a reason to re-think and re-code. This is where you get the adage If it ain't broke don't fix it. When software has been around for 10yrs it IS broke!!!


I dont consider a feature that demands a player to actually log in into the game broken.

Were we able to set a 1 year long queue, it would be paradise for people just creating characters to sale in the future.

Perhaps we should then skip this process and simply ask CCP to sell a Titan characters of the shelf and save everyones time.

[b]~ 10.058 ~

Free The Mittani[/b]
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#79 - 2013-08-02 20:51:34 UTC
I guess if we're talking about it, and I'm sure I'll get flamed, but I'd like to see an option for PLEX for increased sp/hr for a month or so. It'd give new players a chance at skilling into a variety of ships quicker (which of course is the goal) as well as closing the gap somewhat with Vets of 10 years (although they could do the PLEX thing as well).

Flame on!

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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MacKael
Perkone
Caldari State
#80 - 2013-08-02 21:10:01 UTC
I agree the que should be increased to 14-21-60 days it doesn't matter. Like me for example I'm going to be away for around three weeks. Lucky I can train jdc5 32days. With plus 5s and attributes. But what if I wanted something on the tail end of that because you know RL can throw a curve ball at any point. And also we need 10 jump clones now not 5. We need two per level.