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Multiboxing softwares ruining pvp

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#481 - 2013-08-28 15:17:37 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
TKL HUN wrote:

Yes, they are 3rd party, and yes dotlan can affect outcome, but not the game itself inside the sandbox. I'm not talking about theoretical things like you said, like trying out a fit in EVEHQ or EFT. These things I'm talking about are physical, and can affect the sandbox itself.
Excluding EFT, EveMon and EveHQ because they are mainly character helper tools, the rest still stands, external tools can, and do directly affect the sandbox.

Dotlan can affect an outcome but doesn't affect the game itself? If it affects an outcome within the game, it's affected the game. It's not rocket science.

Lets use some real world comparisons. DotLan, EveWho and EveLive (Chribba's chat logging tools) are intelligence gathering tools akin to the business intelligence tools used by investment companies, banks etc and the alphabet agencies used by governments for military and economic planning. They allow the user to plan ahead, find opportunities to exploit and otherwise succeed in their endeavours.

Alternatively they also allow users to research and not be taken advantage of by others, I've seen AWOXers try and join corps and be refused because of external tools pointing to the fact that they are AWOXers, another ingame effect facilitated by external tools.

I'm going to use Goonswarm (Grr™) as an example here because they are extremely proficient at this. They have an entire wing dedicated to analysing and creating opportunities in the market so that they, as a corporation and an alliance, can make stupid amounts of isk via manipulation or warfare. I can pretty much guarantee that they're using external analysis tools to produce an ingame effect.

They also have members who are good at producing propaganda, most of which is first class. Combined with their network of spies and infiltrators they can leverage both visual and written propaganda (spreading distrust, falsehoods and doubt on their enemies forums) to dishearten their enemies and thus make them weaker. A disheartened enemy isn't going to be effective in combat, ergo the external tools employed have an in game effect.

3rd party tools may not be shooting at you, but in the right hands can be more effective than any fleet at destroying an enemy in the game, and thus affecting the game (or sandbox if you prefer).

So which part of metagame do you not understand?



The part where a program directly impacts your actions in my game. None of the above do that. They only influence, and as you say, give research and intel.

If you want to discuss those tools, we can have a separate thread discussion on that very thing and I would love to analysis the setting of standards so if affects everyone equally therefore belonging in this awesome game.

But until then, that doesn't explain why other tools should be in the same boat as multiboxing software, which is what this thread is about.

Not meta. (Which I do enjoy).

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#482 - 2013-08-28 15:18:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Lyris Nairn wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Eve likes to boast that they are not pay to win and for the most part they are correct. Things that can be bought with real cash do not enhance stats. I guess if a person could fund 10 accounts with isk then technically that would not be coming out of pocket.

I would guess (MOST) don’t have the ability to fund all their accounts for long periods… I am sure some do.

I feel the ability to have 10 accounts would not be pay to win per say but the ability to control all at those accounts at once is as close as your going to get.

Maintaining ten accounts via PLEX is no more difficult than maintaining one, assuming that you do something with those extra accounts to make money. Many people multibox miners or ratters, and each account takes just as many hours worth of money making activity to pay for itself in PLEX. The advantage of having ten over one is that any excess hours per month spent making money above the minimum required to keep the accounts in PLEX is profit that is multiplied by the number of accounts.



And funneled to one player. The controversy comes from the fact that when you look at it as a single player perspective, you have to look at the time it takes to perform those actions. To undock, travel and perform a specific set of actions should take the same amount of time regardless if software is being used to facilitate those actions. Whether it be mining or pvp or whatever. Errors in setup, time to take to setup, are all false arguments and don't apply to that timeframe.

Would a MB software allow you to perform the same number of actions across 10 accounts faster than if you did not use that software?

It becomes an arbitrary line drawn at that point =)

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#483 - 2013-08-28 15:19:42 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
TKL HUN wrote:

How the hell evemon or eft or dotlan or etc etc has a direct effenct on the game? And i said a reason why it shouldn't be allowed.

Is it expensive? is it hard to set up? "Whose problem is that"?

TKL HUN wrote:


Still not the same issue what I'm talking about, or why this thread was opened.

You asked the question, I furnished you with an answer.

ISBoxer is no different from a multitude of other 3rd party tools, used correctly they can provide an ingame advantage that affects in game events. Conversely if you use them incorrectly they can have an adverse effect.



Minus the fact your other tools has no bearing on the # of accounts you pay for.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#484 - 2013-08-28 15:42:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
The number of accounts being paid for didn't come into my explanation of how 3rd party tools other than ISBoxer affect the game, because it never came up in that particular discourse, and was irrelevant to it anyway. The OP stated that the 3rd party tools being discussed had no actual, direct or indirect, effects on the game and how it's played, I believe that he is wrong about that and set out my reasoning with examples.

Off topic? maybe. Relevant to the discussion at the time, certainly.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Feyd's Survival Pack
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#485 - 2013-08-28 15:47:41 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
The number of accounts being paid for didn't come into my explanation of how 3rd party tools other than ISBoxer affect the game, because it never came up in that particular discourse, and was irrelevant to it anyway. The OP stated that the 3rd party tools being discussed had no actual, direct or indirect, effects on the game and how it's played, I believe that he is wrong about that and set out my reasoning with examples.

Off topic? maybe. Relevant to the discussion at the time, certainly.



That's because of the relevancy the other 3rd party tools have as a direct impact such as MB software.

Otherwise you're just using other 3rd party tools to do what.. split hairs?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#486 - 2013-08-28 15:49:03 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:

Minus the fact your other tools has no bearing on the # of accounts you pay for.


EveMon absolutely has a bearing on the number of accounts I pay for. Without EveMon I wouldn't be able to keep track of the training queue on more than one account so during periods of inactivity I would just let them lapse.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#487 - 2013-08-28 16:12:33 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
The number of accounts being paid for didn't come into my explanation of how 3rd party tools other than ISBoxer affect the game, because it never came up in that particular discourse, and was irrelevant to it anyway. The OP stated that the 3rd party tools being discussed had no actual, direct or indirect, effects on the game and how it's played, I believe that he is wrong about that and set out my reasoning with examples.

Off topic? maybe. Relevant to the discussion at the time, certainly.



That's because of the relevancy the other 3rd party tools have as a direct impact such as MB software.

Otherwise you're just using other 3rd party tools to do what.. split hairs?

I already said that the discourse at that particular time was only relevant to that particular part of the discussion. What's your point?

I'm unfamiliar with multiboxing therefore I consider myself unqualified to discuss it, what I was discussing is 3rd party tools that I am familiar with and how, despite the protestations of the OP, they can and do have a direct affect on the way that the game is played.

The OP is the one that was splitting hairs, he drew the line in the sand by saying that 3rd party tools that weren't ISBoxer didn't and couldn't affect gameplay, I simply stepped over it.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Feyd's Survival Pack
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#488 - 2013-08-28 16:18:59 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
What can you do with multiboxing/key repeater software that you cannot do without it?

you can FC yourself.


and... well that's it. anything that you can do with that kind of software you can do with sticks and ducktape (this photo has been posted like, a hundred times in this thread already), or you yourself altho this option will make it hard to coordinate as good.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
TKL HUN
Jugis Modo Utopia
#489 - 2013-08-28 17:18:33 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
The number of accounts being paid for didn't come into my explanation of how 3rd party tools other than ISBoxer affect the game, because it never came up in that particular discourse, and was irrelevant to it anyway. The OP stated that the 3rd party tools being discussed had no actual, direct or indirect, effects on the game and how it's played, I believe that he is wrong about that and set out my reasoning with examples.

Off topic? maybe. Relevant to the discussion at the time, certainly.



That's because of the relevancy the other 3rd party tools have as a direct impact such as MB software.

Otherwise you're just using other 3rd party tools to do what.. split hairs?

I already said that the discourse at that particular time was only relevant to that particular part of the discussion. What's your point?

I'm unfamiliar with multiboxing therefore I consider myself unqualified to discuss it, what I was discussing is 3rd party tools that I am familiar with and how, despite the protestations of the OP, they can and do have a direct affect on the way that the game is played.

The OP is the one that was splitting hairs, he drew the line in the sand by saying that 3rd party tools that weren't ISBoxer didn't and couldn't affect gameplay, I simply stepped over it.


Don't mess things up...
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#490 - 2013-08-28 17:21:25 UTC
TKL HUN wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
The number of accounts being paid for didn't come into my explanation of how 3rd party tools other than ISBoxer affect the game, because it never came up in that particular discourse, and was irrelevant to it anyway. The OP stated that the 3rd party tools being discussed had no actual, direct or indirect, effects on the game and how it's played, I believe that he is wrong about that and set out my reasoning with examples.

Off topic? maybe. Relevant to the discussion at the time, certainly.



That's because of the relevancy the other 3rd party tools have as a direct impact such as MB software.

Otherwise you're just using other 3rd party tools to do what.. split hairs?

I already said that the discourse at that particular time was only relevant to that particular part of the discussion. What's your point?

I'm unfamiliar with multiboxing therefore I consider myself unqualified to discuss it, what I was discussing is 3rd party tools that I am familiar with and how, despite the protestations of the OP, they can and do have a direct affect on the way that the game is played.

The OP is the one that was splitting hairs, he drew the line in the sand by saying that 3rd party tools that weren't ISBoxer didn't and couldn't affect gameplay, I simply stepped over it.


Don't mess things up...
I don't need to help you with that, your very first post in this thread sealed the deal on messed up.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#491 - 2013-08-28 20:53:05 UTC
Like most threads on this forum.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#492 - 2013-08-28 21:25:18 UTC
Yeep wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

Minus the fact your other tools has no bearing on the # of accounts you pay for.


EveMon absolutely has a bearing on the number of accounts I pay for. Without EveMon I wouldn't be able to keep track of the training queue on more than one account so during periods of inactivity I would just let them lapse.



So how would evemon compare to using one account over say... 5?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#493 - 2013-08-28 21:25:55 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
The number of accounts being paid for didn't come into my explanation of how 3rd party tools other than ISBoxer affect the game, because it never came up in that particular discourse, and was irrelevant to it anyway. The OP stated that the 3rd party tools being discussed had no actual, direct or indirect, effects on the game and how it's played, I believe that he is wrong about that and set out my reasoning with examples.

Off topic? maybe. Relevant to the discussion at the time, certainly.



That's because of the relevancy the other 3rd party tools have as a direct impact such as MB software.

Otherwise you're just using other 3rd party tools to do what.. split hairs?

I already said that the discourse at that particular time was only relevant to that particular part of the discussion. What's your point?

I'm unfamiliar with multiboxing therefore I consider myself unqualified to discuss it, what I was discussing is 3rd party tools that I am familiar with and how, despite the protestations of the OP, they can and do have a direct affect on the way that the game is played.

The OP is the one that was splitting hairs, he drew the line in the sand by saying that 3rd party tools that weren't ISBoxer didn't and couldn't affect gameplay, I simply stepped over it.



So splitting hairs then, Roger that.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#494 - 2013-08-28 21:26:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Grimpak wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
What can you do with multiboxing/key repeater software that you cannot do without it?

you can FC yourself.


and... well that's it. anything that you can do with that kind of software you can do with sticks and ducktape (this photo has been posted like, a hundred times in this thread already), or you yourself altho this option will make it hard to coordinate as good.



I can quite easily FC my own fleet while solo, without a MB software, dual boxing, multi boxing, etc.

I love that comparison though, because with software you can simply disable it and start it back up.

Your sticks method, well, you're ****** if anything happens you need to micromanage.

So not the same really.

So yea, software is a separate edge that you CANNOT do without so far is what you've proven in your example.

I'm all for multiboxing, but I think restrictions should be in place when it comes to 3rd party applications to argue the value of that feature/ability.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Korvus Falek
Depraved Corruption
Lux Inter Astra
#495 - 2013-08-28 21:36:03 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Yeep wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

Minus the fact your other tools has no bearing on the # of accounts you pay for.


EveMon absolutely has a bearing on the number of accounts I pay for. Without EveMon I wouldn't be able to keep track of the training queue on more than one account so during periods of inactivity I would just let them lapse.



So how would evemon compare to using one account over say... 5?


EvEmon is a skill tracker and planner, as well as mails, contracts watcher, market, and a multitude of other things for each character and account.

Using EvEmon with 5 accounts, makes it so you can quickly and efficiently check skill queues, account lapse time, skill plans, current skill set, and all the other useful things mentioned above, for each account. Without having to log in each one separately to find out such info.

If anything, EvEmon is as much of a game changer as ISBoxer due to the efficiency in data analysis of the characters sheet for players to inspect.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#496 - 2013-08-28 22:53:25 UTC
EVEMon is great stuff.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#497 - 2013-08-29 06:40:10 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
EVEMon is great stuff.


Well we do make the best of everything.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#498 - 2013-08-29 07:07:22 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
What can you do with multiboxing/key repeater software that you cannot do without it?

you can FC yourself.


and... well that's it. anything that you can do with that kind of software you can do with sticks and ducktape (this photo has been posted like, a hundred times in this thread already), or you yourself altho this option will make it hard to coordinate as good.



I can quite easily FC my own fleet while solo, without a MB software, dual boxing, multi boxing, etc.

I love that comparison though, because with software you can simply disable it and start it back up.

Your sticks method, well, you're ****** if anything happens you need to micromanage.

So not the same really.

So yea, software is a separate edge that you CANNOT do without so far is what you've proven in your example.

I'm all for multiboxing, but I think restrictions should be in place when it comes to 3rd party applications to argue the value of that feature/ability.

honestly, my opinion is "are they botting? no? then I couldn't care any less, since they die all the same."

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#499 - 2013-08-29 08:10:56 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
What can you do with multiboxing/key repeater software that you cannot do without it?

you can FC yourself.


and... well that's it. anything that you can do with that kind of software you can do with sticks and ducktape (this photo has been posted like, a hundred times in this thread already), or you yourself altho this option will make it hard to coordinate as good.



I can quite easily FC my own fleet while solo, without a MB software, dual boxing, multi boxing, etc.

I love that comparison though, because with software you can simply disable it and start it back up.

Your sticks method, well, you're ****** if anything happens you need to micromanage.

So not the same really.

So yea, software is a separate edge that you CANNOT do without so far is what you've proven in your example.

I'm all for multiboxing, but I think restrictions should be in place when it comes to 3rd party applications to argue the value of that feature/ability.

honestly, my opinion is "are they botting? no? then I couldn't care any less, since they die all the same."

I downloaded innerspace and ISBoxer... let me just say, if someone can figure out how to use this crap, they deserve to multibox.. I can't.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
TKL HUN
Jugis Modo Utopia
#500 - 2013-09-02 09:14:25 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
What can you do with multiboxing/key repeater software that you cannot do without it?

you can FC yourself.


and... well that's it. anything that you can do with that kind of software you can do with sticks and ducktape (this photo has been posted like, a hundred times in this thread already), or you yourself altho this option will make it hard to coordinate as good.



I can quite easily FC my own fleet while solo, without a MB software, dual boxing, multi boxing, etc.

I love that comparison though, because with software you can simply disable it and start it back up.

Your sticks method, well, you're ****** if anything happens you need to micromanage.

So not the same really.

So yea, software is a separate edge that you CANNOT do without so far is what you've proven in your example.

I'm all for multiboxing, but I think restrictions should be in place when it comes to 3rd party applications to argue the value of that feature/ability.

honestly, my opinion is "are they botting? no? then I couldn't care any less, since they die all the same."


It's not botting, but it's pretty close to that.