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Fleet Formation System ----- RTS aspects make fleet battle even better
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#61 - 2013-08-05 16:27:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
A couple of other non-artificial advantages to be considered.

When you come out of warp your fleet is already in the position it needs to be in to engage (firewall in front of the main body, logistics where they need to be, snipers to the rear).

Your firewall formation could have the ships in a vertical grid (one or two layers deep) that keeps ships close enough for their smart bombs to overlap but not quite close enough for the ships in the firewall to take damage from each other.

Formations that allow for much better concentration of damage during bomb deployment.

Spread formations for some elements of your fleet that ensure that if a faster enemy ship is able to keep a high transversal to some elements of your fleet it loses transversal to rest.

Large spread formations that keep the fleet organized yet dispersed enough that if a bubble goes it it doesn't catch as many ships, with the edges slightly in advance of the center so that ranges remain relatively consistent to target for the whole fleet (meaning more damage applied, fewer ships out of range). Most useful when the bulk of your fleet is fit identically according to your chosen fleet doctrine.

If you can create custom formations on the fly the options go up dramatically. These rudimentary examples don't really do more than scratch the surface.

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Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#62 - 2013-08-05 16:43:19 UTC
having a fleet setting to form a bunch of ships up however the fc likes sounds like there'd be less stuff for fleet members to do?

there's already a lot of 'respond to notification > press f1' or 'assign drones > go afk'

i'd like to see eve assign a simple initial formation when ships cyno in, though. like all the ships appear at a certain distance from each other and facing the same direction and not bouncing around off each other and all over the shop

actually, all the ships jumping in could all be facing away from the star they came from, that'd be cool
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#63 - 2013-08-05 17:06:27 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
having a fleet setting to form a bunch of ships up however the fc likes sounds like there'd be less stuff for fleet members to do?

there's already a lot of 'respond to notification > press f1' or 'assign drones > go afk'

i'd like to see eve assign a simple initial formation when ships cyno in, though. like all the ships appear at a certain distance from each other and facing the same direction and not bouncing around off each other and all over the shop

actually, all the ships jumping in could all be facing away from the star they came from, that'd be cool

It would certainly be a (small) step in the right direction.

Keep in mind that a formation system would not really make the life of a pilot much different that it is now, as often they are simply orbiting an anchor or following a particular alignment. Plus, of course, a pilot could enter or leave formation as they wish if the situation warrants it... and sometimes the FC will issue specific orders to "Break Formation", usually if the action gets into close quarters (and the effective range becomes too small for a large formation to keep everyone's damage on target).

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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#64 - 2013-08-05 20:14:02 UTC
An expanded range or variable range (depending on skills) to bombs would certainly give people a reason to spread out a bit.

This was a problem with bomber fleets during the second world war. Bunched up, they had better defenses of combined firepower against fighters, but were more vulnerable to anti-aircraft weapons. They had to balance out these concerns.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#65 - 2013-08-05 20:23:29 UTC
Rex Adragoon wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Rex Adragoon wrote:
Simulation

Now imagine in a fleet combat, the defending side is layering up using the point defense formation, with the longer range ships further within the layer (could be an ideal position for those BS-weaponized BC glass cannons) and logistic ships at the furthest, forming an unbreakable wall. The attacking side sends up squads of attacking frigates in fast attack formation trying to tear apart the defense network by attacking within it hoping to take out the glass cannons. Suddenly the defending ships activate their smart bombs, bombarding the frigates caught within into oblivion. While the attacking side forms up the long range focus attack formation, taking out the defending party one ship at a time...

Was the attacking FC really bad at probing out the glass cannon ships and having a bounce ready to drop them at 0?

How close are these ships, anyway, it's just a big line blob?


Well I don't know the exact specs that would make them work, those examples were just made up to show what the system might be.


I have a great idea that should be implemented, but I don't really know how it's going to work. Like my post if you want this thing.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#66 - 2013-08-06 02:27:10 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
All you really need for this to work (and still, formations are a good idea), is for the FC to be able to broadcast a formation and for you to be able to click a button to "approach" the assigned location when in fleet.

Indeed. There should be some way to set ships into a fleet formation. For one thing it would make for much more spectacular battles. In a real fight fleets would be used to avoid hitting friendly ships and maintaining your LOS to the target. Also perhaps some ships would give area bonuses to ships nearby in the fleet. Perhaps I've been playing too many RTS's.
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#67 - 2013-08-06 02:47:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Felicity Love
No.

If you are trying to suggest that the server should institute some sort of orderly fleet deployment similar to "lining up the troops" by columns and ranks -- forget it. This ain't the Napoleonic Wars, boyo, and this ain't "Master and Commander".

The server can barely keep up with player activity as it is, so making it work harder to enforce some sort of romantically esoteric crap such as sailing line abreast, or line astern... good God, you know not of what you speak. Roll

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#68 - 2013-08-06 02:49:36 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Rex Adragoon wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Was the attacking FC really bad at probing out the glass cannon ships and having a bounce ready to drop them at 0?

How close are these ships, anyway, it's just a big line blob?

Well I don't know the exact specs that would make them work, those examples were just made up to show what the system might be.

I have a great idea that should be implemented, but I don't really know how it's going to work. Like my post if you want this thing.

Eh, I'll trust you this time, as long as it is in space.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#69 - 2013-08-06 06:10:22 UTC
Once more, if you want to eliminate these big static blobs, do two things:


1. Increase the range and AOE damage of bombs. Make "setting them up the bomb" be a motivator to spread out a little.
2. Make being stationary even more of a bad idea. Speed tankers unite!

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Rex Adragoon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#70 - 2013-08-07 23:18:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Rex Adragoon
Khanh'rhh wrote:

Well no, no you're not...

That's as many as it lets me quote, but there are more. Why it's an awful idea has been mentioned over and over, but you don't listen.



Okay I will try to dig up my responses to these quotes you have again, just so I think you may have missed/omitted them which lead you to believe I didn't listen (read).


Khanh'rhh wrote:
What you are in fact asking for, is to remove 80% or more of the possible gameplay from fleet battles.


Well you didn't say what's after the "because" so there's not much I can respond to. I did ask you to provide further arguments so the discussion can go on, in case you missed it.

masternerdguy wrote:
These formations follow naturally from the game mechanics. You are advocating being able to enter formations that give arbitrary, artificial, bonuses to properties of the ship.


I did say that I get the argument of that post was between "artificial bonus" and "natural advantage" Back then I wasn't thinking this was necessarily a bad thing if gameplay is enhanced, just like how the scanning process is changed in Odyssey. But if people oppose it, I can understand but like what Ranger 1 said there are natural advantages to a properly formed fleet formation as well.

masternerdguy wrote:
If you can't tell what's going on in a blob then maybe fleets are too advanced for you.

First of all, they already are in a "defensive formation" - they are anchored up so they maintain a reasonable transversal and mitigate incoming damage.

Secondly, they are close together because that makes it easier on logistics pilots, and it is easier for the FC to call good targets if the FC is near the majority of the fleet.

Thirdly, there are plenty of "formations" used in fleet pvp. FCs will often have fleets spread out within a certain radius, say 30km, so that bombing runs are more difficult, not to mention all those neat little fleet warps to interceptors at ping spots to get into a good position about the enemy fleet.

And while we're talking about positioning, those interdictor pilots are hard at work setting up bubbles in ways that prevent enemy bomber runs and keep the enemy fleet from leaving.

In other words, you just don't know what you're talking about.


In my response I said those formations masternerdguy pointed out were good examples and indicated that organized ship positioning provides strategic value. However -- perhaps I wasn't being clear enough in my previous response -- the methods seem too primitive, having a more dedicated UI can promote the use of strategic formations, as well as having other advantages, by making more complicated formations possible.

Callic Veratar wrote:
The reason formations are bad is that it encourages giving up control from each individual pilot to a single FC. If they offer boosts, you need to fly with them to remain competitive (especially if it's a damage or tank boost).

Every pilot should be required to be in full control of their ship. I'm personally in favour of removing fleet warp and assigning drones or fighters.


Well I'll just copy & paste my response to this post, whether my argument is still valid is another thing (quote limit reached):

"That's totally a valid point, individual pilot has less to worry about how to fly their ships because the commander has the formation setup. But every formation also has buffs and debuffs, so if a commander chooses so he can dismiss the formation and let the pilots fly however they like, this way it's also harder for the enemy to spot friendly units and to kill off the individual commanders which will completely remove the fleet bonuses.

I see this system as an additional option that adds more strategic aspects to fleet fights. It has pros and cons, and balance should be done so there are definitely situations when no formation is actually better."

I hope now you see my arguments towards each of those quotes you gathered. I was fully aware of what people are saying and I want to engage into further discussions. If you think there's no value doing so, you are happy to leave. If you believe you strongly oppose adding anything remotely "fleet formation" related, feel free to state your arguments.
Rex Adragoon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#71 - 2013-08-07 23:29:51 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Once more, if you want to eliminate these big static blobs, do two things:


1. Increase the range and AOE damage of bombs. Make "setting them up the bomb" be a motivator to spread out a little.
2. Make being stationary even more of a bad idea. Speed tankers unite!


Indeed, but we don't want the pilots to just "spread out", which is to just make a bigger static blob. Having a system that allows a fleet to spread out (or whatever formation makes sense) while still maintaining certain common attributes (ship alignment, relative speed, relative distance, etc) will really benefit fleet fights.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#72 - 2013-08-07 23:37:58 UTC
Rex Adragoon wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Once more, if you want to eliminate these big static blobs, do two things:


1. Increase the range and AOE damage of bombs. Make "setting them up the bomb" be a motivator to spread out a little.
2. Make being stationary even more of a bad idea. Speed tankers unite!


Indeed, but we don't want the pilots to just "spread out", which is to just make a bigger static blob. Having a system that allows a fleet to spread out (or whatever formation makes sense) while still maintaining certain common attributes (ship alignment, relative speed, relative distance, etc) will really benefit fleet fights.

I'd like stronger bombs. So would my bombing FC, I'm pretty sure.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?