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Fleet Formation System ----- RTS aspects make fleet battle even better
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Rex Adragoon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#41 - 2013-08-02 22:37:29 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Eve will then become a bit like Homeworld for FCs. Lol That would be kind-of funny. But then, also kind-of pointless for the plebs. Might as well not be logged in.

All you really need for this to work (and still, formations are a good idea), is for the FC to be able to broadcast a formation and for you to be able to click a button to "approach" the assigned location when in fleet.



Right, that's exactly what I meant.
Rex Adragoon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#42 - 2013-08-02 22:39:37 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Rex Adragoon wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
No.


Well thanks for your reply but may I hear the critic?

Well aside from the point Alavaria already made about computation, any attempt to incur bonuses simply based on some sort of formation is just really gimmicky, no matter how you do it, and it deters from the things we already fly formations for, which is maintaining a strategic position on the battlefield, or keeping your fleet aligned to a bounce point or celestial, or keeping logistics near the friendly fleet but out of range of hostiles, or any number of other things that we already do.


I totally get your point, but sorry I can't see why this cannot coexist with all of the things you have mentioned. In my point of view all of them can still be performed perfectly while also maintaining a fleet formation.
Rex Adragoon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#43 - 2013-08-02 22:42:50 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
All slowcats enter the defensive formation, to make ourselves even harder to kill by subcaps !

After all, slowcats:
1) Don't move much, or move slowly anyway
2) Have long-range DPS
3) Hand long-range reps and cap transfer

Of course it would take forever to get those ships into position, you could show up really early and play space-musical chairs until every one is in the right spot. And then the enemy blueballs you or shoots something else and you jump in in a blob anyway. Shrug.


Yup those are totally valid concerns, but can also be addressed easily. Members can warp directly into position, or close enough to their assigned position so it wouldn't take forever. Preparations can also be done before the battle, and the whole fleet can warp together maintaining their relative position.
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#44 - 2013-08-02 22:45:32 UTC
If you can't tell what's going on in a blob then maybe fleets are too advanced for you.

First of all, they already are in a "defensive formation" - they are anchored up so they maintain a reasonable transversal and mitigate incoming damage.

Secondly, they are close together because that makes it easier on logistics pilots, and it is easier for the FC to call good targets if the FC is near the majority of the fleet.

Thirdly, there are plenty of "formations" used in fleet pvp. FCs will often have fleets spread out within a certain radius, say 30km, so that bombing runs are more difficult, not to mention all those neat little fleet warps to interceptors at ping spots to get into a good position about the enemy fleet.

And while we're talking about positioning, those interdictor pilots are hard at work setting up bubbles in ways that prevent enemy bomber runs and keep the enemy fleet from leaving.

In other words, you just don't know what you're talking about.

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Rex Adragoon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#45 - 2013-08-02 22:48:01 UTC
Callic Veratar wrote:
The reason formations are bad is that it encourages giving up control from each individual pilot to a single FC. If they offer boosts, you need to fly with them to remain competitive (especially if it's a damage or tank boost).

Every pilot should be required to be in full control of their ship. I'm personally in favour of removing fleet warp and assigning drones or fighters.


That's totally a valid point, individual pilot has less to worry about how to fly their ships because the commander has the formation setup. But every formation also has buffs and debuffs, so if a commander chooses so he can dismiss the formation and let the pilots fly however they like, this way it's also harder for the enemy to spot friendly units and to kill off the individual commanders which will completely remove the fleet bonuses.

I see this system as an additional option that adds more strategic aspects to fleet fights. It has pros and cons, and balance should be done so there are definitely situations when no formation is actually better.
Rex Adragoon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#46 - 2013-08-02 22:56:22 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:
If you can't tell what's going on in a blob then maybe fleets are too advanced for you.

First of all, they already are in a "defensive formation" - they are anchored up so they maintain a reasonable transversal and mitigate incoming damage.

Secondly, they are close together because that makes it easier on logistics pilots, and it is easier for the FC to call good targets if the FC is near the majority of the fleet.

Thirdly, there are plenty of "formations" used in fleet pvp. FCs will often have fleets spread out within a certain radius, say 30km, so that bombing runs are more difficult, not to mention all those neat little fleet warps to interceptors at ping spots to get into a good position about the enemy fleet.

And while we're talking about positioning, those interdictor pilots are hard at work setting up bubbles in ways that prevent enemy bomber runs and keep the enemy fleet from leaving.

In other words, you just don't know what you're talking about.


Thanks for your input and I think all you have said are good points.

While I value your critics, from my view all you have said just validated that a formation is important to an effective fleet engagement. Then what I have proposed will not be "make a fleet formation system since EVE doesn't have that and no one is doing it" but "make an enhanced formation system that allows FCs more strategic options and empowers good decision making on the field".
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#47 - 2013-08-02 22:58:35 UTC
Rex Adragoon wrote:
masternerdguy wrote:
If you can't tell what's going on in a blob then maybe fleets are too advanced for you.

First of all, they already are in a "defensive formation" - they are anchored up so they maintain a reasonable transversal and mitigate incoming damage.

Secondly, they are close together because that makes it easier on logistics pilots, and it is easier for the FC to call good targets if the FC is near the majority of the fleet.

Thirdly, there are plenty of "formations" used in fleet pvp. FCs will often have fleets spread out within a certain radius, say 30km, so that bombing runs are more difficult, not to mention all those neat little fleet warps to interceptors at ping spots to get into a good position about the enemy fleet.

And while we're talking about positioning, those interdictor pilots are hard at work setting up bubbles in ways that prevent enemy bomber runs and keep the enemy fleet from leaving.

In other words, you just don't know what you're talking about.


Thanks for your input and I think all you have said are good points.

While I value your critics, from my view all you have said just validated that a formation is important to an effective fleet engagement. Then what I have proposed will not be "make a fleet formation system since EVE doesn't have that and no one is doing it" but "make an enhanced formation system that allows FCs more strategic options and empowers good decision making on the field".



Then you're really bad.

These formations follow naturally from the game mechanics. You are advocating being able to enter formations that give arbitrary, artificial, bonuses to properties of the ship.

If you aren't a troll I suggest writing an Eve News 24 Article on this topic, I think you'll get a positive reaction there.

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Rex Adragoon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#48 - 2013-08-02 23:06:29 UTC
Azurae wrote:
Rex Adragoon wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
No.


Well thanks for your reply but may I hear the critic?


NO

because you didnt even bother to put it in the right forum (features and ideas) so there isnt much thought in your idea either and its not even worth discussing


Well I apologize for my ignorance, I did actually look for that sub-forum before I post but failed to spot it. So I apologize for my carelessness but despite that I think there's value in this idea.
Rex Adragoon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#49 - 2013-08-02 23:14:59 UTC
Takari wrote:
The main problem I see with this, and the reason this would add tremendous amounts of processing time to the already beleaguered eve nodes is that space is a 3 dimensional playing field, and it's space...



Thanks and I think those are amazing constructive feedback. I agree on all of your critics on the example formation I gave, but mostly I didn't think them through as thorough as you did since I was just making up things to communicate the idea through.

And also yes following a formation takes away a bit of control on how the individual pilot fly their ships, but I think this can be mitigated depending on how the system is designed. Choosing and engaging targets will still need to be done manually by individual combatants, the formation system has to aid on the movement somehow since the manual navigation cannot achieve such a precision.

I'd imagine any individual pilot can break out from the formation and pursue their own targets, and I can see this situation being pretty common.
Rex Adragoon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#50 - 2013-08-02 23:25:04 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:
Rex Adragoon wrote:
masternerdguy wrote:
If you can't tell what's going on in a blob then maybe fleets are too advanced for you.

First of all, they already are in a "defensive formation" - they are anchored up so they maintain a reasonable transversal and mitigate incoming damage.

Secondly, they are close together because that makes it easier on logistics pilots, and it is easier for the FC to call good targets if the FC is near the majority of the fleet.

Thirdly, there are plenty of "formations" used in fleet pvp. FCs will often have fleets spread out within a certain radius, say 30km, so that bombing runs are more difficult, not to mention all those neat little fleet warps to interceptors at ping spots to get into a good position about the enemy fleet.

And while we're talking about positioning, those interdictor pilots are hard at work setting up bubbles in ways that prevent enemy bomber runs and keep the enemy fleet from leaving.

In other words, you just don't know what you're talking about.


Thanks for your input and I think all you have said are good points.

While I value your critics, from my view all you have said just validated that a formation is important to an effective fleet engagement. Then what I have proposed will not be "make a fleet formation system since EVE doesn't have that and no one is doing it" but "make an enhanced formation system that allows FCs more strategic options and empowers good decision making on the field".



Then you're really bad.

These formations follow naturally from the game mechanics. You are advocating being able to enter formations that give arbitrary, artificial, bonuses to properties of the ship.

If you aren't a troll I suggest writing an Eve News 24 Article on this topic, I think you'll get a positive reaction there.


Okay so I see that your argument lies between "using primitive mechanisms that follow game mechanics naturally" and "implementing a system that gives artificial attribute changes to ships within a formation".

I can see and understand your point here now, but may I ask why is this necessarily a bad thing if it empowers current gameplay? May you list the things that this system breaks and would make the gameplay worse? From then on we can discuss on more specific topics versus just arguing why "using letters is better than sending emails".

And no I'm not a troll :P
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#51 - 2013-08-02 23:42:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
One of two things is happening here:

a) You're not listening to anything being said to you
b) You're listening but simply don't understand what is being said to you

What you are in fact asking for, is to remove 80% or more of the possible gameplay from fleet battles because .......

Actually I don't know the because.

What seems to be happening here is you want battles to look better on streams so that you can vicariously enjoy them more. This, at the expense of the people actually, you know, playing the game and not just watching it.

It is a very silly idea, sorry.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#52 - 2013-08-02 23:47:00 UTC
Rex Adragoon wrote:
There actually isn't much to do once the fight has started: tackle/jam targets, shoot primaries, watch for repair needs... Once the fight has started, position of ships doesn't really matter that much as long as you are aware of modules' range

Actually, I take back the gentle way I phrased the last post - you have exactly zero idea of what you are talking about and just want it to look pretty on an internet stream.

I don't know why, with a massive virtual universe to explore and make your own, you would chose to instead watch someone else play the game and have fun.
I don't know where you get the gall to then, having not understood (and therefore enjoyed) what you've seen, to then go to the game creators and suggest dumbing down the game so that you can understand what you're seeing (at the expense of people playing it).

Just. Stop.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Rex Adragoon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-08-03 01:24:45 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Rex Adragoon wrote:
There actually isn't much to do once the fight has started: tackle/jam targets, shoot primaries, watch for repair needs... Once the fight has started, position of ships doesn't really matter that much as long as you are aware of modules' range

Actually, I take back the gentle way I phrased the last post - you have exactly zero idea of what you are talking about and just want it to look pretty on an internet stream.

I don't know why, with a massive virtual universe to explore and make your own, you would chose to instead watch someone else play the game and have fun.
I don't know where you get the gall to then, having not understood (and therefore enjoyed) what you've seen, to then go to the game creators and suggest dumbing down the game so that you can understand what you're seeing (at the expense of people playing it).

Just. Stop.


Well first of all I meant no offence at all at this post so I hope you don't feel offended. Secondly I AM listening to all that's said to me, but to me non of them succeeded to communicate the fundamental flaw that they see in such a system.

If you think you have superior understanding than me on what's going on and you think any part of the idea is dumb, maybe you can be kind enough to explain that "because" that you did not explain.
Rex Adragoon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#54 - 2013-08-03 01:41:51 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Rex Adragoon wrote:
There actually isn't much to do once the fight has started: tackle/jam targets, shoot primaries, watch for repair needs... Once the fight has started, position of ships doesn't really matter that much as long as you are aware of modules' range

Actually, I take back the gentle way I phrased the last post - you have exactly zero idea of what you are talking about and just want it to look pretty on an internet stream.

I don't know why, with a massive virtual universe to explore and make your own, you would chose to instead watch someone else play the game and have fun.
I don't know where you get the gall to then, having not understood (and therefore enjoyed) what you've seen, to then go to the game creators and suggest dumbing down the game so that you can understand what you're seeing (at the expense of people playing it).

Just. Stop.


Well first of all I meant no offence at all at this post so I hope you don't feel offended. Secondly I AM listening to all that's said to me, but to me non of them succeeded to communicate the fundamental flaw that they see in such a system.

If you think you have superior understanding than me on what's going on and you think any part of the idea is dumb, maybe you can be kind enough to explain that "because" that you did not explain.
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#55 - 2013-08-03 05:47:58 UTC
I believe you should write an EN24 article on this topic.

http://evenews24.com/

Things are only impossible until they are not.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#56 - 2013-08-03 06:08:44 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:

Actually, I take back the gentle way I phrased the last post - you have exactly zero idea of what you are talking about and just want it to look pretty on an internet stream.

I don't know why, with a massive virtual universe to explore and make your own, you would chose to instead watch someone else play the game and have fun.
I don't know where you get the gall to then, having not understood (and therefore enjoyed) what you've seen, to then go to the game creators and suggest dumbing down the game so that you can understand what you're seeing (at the expense of people playing it).

Just. Stop.

I don't get why you could possibly thi-
Rex Adragoon wrote:
It doesn't take a genius to notice that almost any organized fights of ships in EVE is nothing more than a bunch of ships tangled and shooting each other, and this is especially obvious once the scale of the fight goes up to tens, hundreds, or thousands of combatants. Things get chaotic and not after long ships are orbiting each other shooting at random directions, an observer can't actually tell what's going on.

Rex Adragoon wrote:
an observer can't actually tell what's going on.

Oh.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#57 - 2013-08-04 12:07:28 UTC
Rex Adragoon wrote:
I AM listening to all that's said to me

Well no, no you're not.
See:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
What you are in fact asking for, is to remove 80% or more of the possible gameplay from fleet battles.

masternerdguy wrote:
These formations follow naturally from the game mechanics. You are advocating being able to enter formations that give arbitrary, artificial, bonuses to properties of the ship.

masternerdguy wrote:
If you can't tell what's going on in a blob then maybe fleets are too advanced for you.

First of all, they already are in a "defensive formation" - they are anchored up so they maintain a reasonable transversal and mitigate incoming damage.

Secondly, they are close together because that makes it easier on logistics pilots, and it is easier for the FC to call good targets if the FC is near the majority of the fleet.

Thirdly, there are plenty of "formations" used in fleet pvp. FCs will often have fleets spread out within a certain radius, say 30km, so that bombing runs are more difficult, not to mention all those neat little fleet warps to interceptors at ping spots to get into a good position about the enemy fleet.

And while we're talking about positioning, those interdictor pilots are hard at work setting up bubbles in ways that prevent enemy bomber runs and keep the enemy fleet from leaving.

In other words, you just don't know what you're talking about.

Callic Veratar wrote:
The reason formations are bad is that it encourages giving up control from each individual pilot to a single FC. If they offer boosts, you need to fly with them to remain competitive (especially if it's a damage or tank boost).

Every pilot should be required to be in full control of their ship. I'm personally in favour of removing fleet warp and assigning drones or fighters.



That's as many as it lets me quote, but there are more. Why it's an awful idea has been mentioned over and over, but you don't listen.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#58 - 2013-08-04 22:21:27 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
That's as many as it lets me quote, but there are more. Why it's an awful idea has been mentioned over and over, but you don't listen.

It also needs shiny new animations that can't be turned off, then it will be PERFECT.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#59 - 2013-08-05 08:09:47 UTC
Rex Adragoon wrote:
TL;DR: We can introduce a fleet formation system to encourage the proper positioning of ships to give more fast real time strategic aspects to the game, also set apart the unorganized dog-fighters from a well trained combat organization.

Stuff

Thoughts and critics?


Formations mean nothing in this environment.

Speed in a V? it's a vacuum, there's no good reason this should happen.

Everything else? There is no line-of-sight in Eve, so the tightest formation is no better than the messiest blob orbiting an anchor.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#60 - 2013-08-05 15:46:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Nikuno wrote:
Rex Adragoon wrote:
TL;DR: We can introduce a fleet formation system to encourage the proper positioning of ships to give more fast real time strategic aspects to the game, also set apart the unorganized dog-fighters from a well trained combat organization.

Stuff

Thoughts and critics?


Formations mean nothing in this environment.

Speed in a V? it's a vacuum, there's no good reason this should happen.

Everything else? There is no line-of-sight in Eve, so the tightest formation is no better than the messiest blob orbiting an anchor.


Almost correct. Formations do not mean the same thing in this environment.

The problem with a ball of ships bumping each other around an anchor point is obvious, nobody is aligned. Faster ships out pace the anchor if it is moving, and even if (as is most often the case) the anchor is stationary most of the time the ships orbiting are not aligned where they need to go in case of the need to warp out.

Formations could be a way to gain further realistic (if subtle) advantages without sacrificing the advantages that have evolved through natural game play. Again, I am personally not a fan of artificial advantages built into a formation system. I think that the innate advantages of being able to put ships into a really tight (but still mobile) grouping, or spread them out in precise positions that mitigate vulnerability to bombs yet still keeps everyone aligned, would be advantages that FC's would learn to use very quickly. Just the ability to pack MANY more ships into remote rep range (possibly much tighter than the 500m limits we have now), and still maintain alignment (regardless of any course changes the FC dictates) would be more than enough reason for most FC's to use formations on a regular basis.

As far as comments about it being unimportant if onlookers can understand what is going on... well, it may not be important to us as players. WE get what is going on, or at least most of us do. However the truth of the matter is that the beauty of EVE does have a large impact in bringing in new subscribers, and anything that lets EVE look more like what an outsider envisions a large fleet battle in a SciFi setting to look like is a HUGE plus for the health of the game. Truthfully, a big chaotic ball of mess looks ridiculous and sharply detracts from the beauty of the game. So yes, even if one of the main reasons for going this route is for those blood suckers in the marketing department Big smile this alone is reason enough to explore the issue... as long as it is done in a way that does not detract from (and hopefully adds new dimensions to) actual game play.

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