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T3's worth training?
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Endo Riftbreaker
STK Scientific
The Initiative.
#1 - 2013-08-01 15:18:01 UTC
Hi all!

I'm relatively new to wormhole space, and a newer character in general. I've read a lot about the upcoming T3 nerf, and I'm just trying to weight the benefits of training up for a Tengu due to its wide variety of PvE applications.

I'm about 45 days away from T2 heavy missiles and max tengu skills, is it worth training or would I be better off going for something else? I'd also be curious to hear what people think would replace the T3 - sentry drone boats maybe?

Mostly interested in PvEing with it - I've been using a BS + logic combo in my current C3.

-Endo
Lord Xyon
Team Hemi
#2 - 2013-08-01 15:31:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Xyon
I would look at it this way.

Training Missiles to tech 2, training missile support skills, Bonus to all missile ships. Heck a Drake is still a powerful ship well used. Not going to hurt a thing training that up. C2 and C3 holes this is the PVE ship of choice, cheap and does the job.

Shield Skills, again affect everything from frigates to cap ships. Train them up.

Cruisers 5, this opens up Heavy Assault Cruisers, Heavy Dictors, Logistic and Recon ships as well. So why not train it? They are buffing HAC's and Dictors are heavily used in holes.

The Strategic Cruiser skills are relatively short training time to everything else, 4 days about per subsystem going to level 5, you can effectively fly it at level 4 but you want it to 5. So if you were worried about training strategic cruisers, then wait. However everything else leading up to them do nothing but help you in the long run everywhere else so you can wait to see.

I doubt the nerf is going to be too serious though. Everytime there is a nerf you get the Sky is Falling reaction. Look back at when they nerfed the range of heavy missiles.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-08-01 17:02:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Lord Xyon wrote:

I doubt the nerf is going to be too serious though. Everytime there is a nerf you get the Sky is Falling reaction. Look back at when they nerfed the range of heavy missiles.


Except in this case T3's are already well balanced except a couple of specific issues, a dev said they should be put down like rabid dogs, and the HAC's were rebalanced and CCP still didn't get them right. So, assuming T3's are going to be rebalanced to give HAC's a role and not overlap with other T2's specific roles, then that basically puts the T3's in a box labeled "GIMP" only to be taken out when wanting to subject it to some form of perversion.

So IDK, might be a chicken little situation, might not. If one started training right now, it'd be 2mos until you were well skilled for the specific fit one was looking at running and so there'd be at least another 3 - 5 months use out of it before CCP pulls all our underwear over our heads.

Don't ban me, bro!
Endo Riftbreaker
STK Scientific
The Initiative.
#4 - 2013-08-01 17:11:53 UTC
The rabid dog quotation I think was in reference to the cloaky T3's right? I'm not as concerned about a nerf there as I am the straight up offensive capabilities of the ship when normally fitted for PvE. I'm really just tired of dualboxing a BS and a Logi haha, so looking for a boat that can solo them.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#5 - 2013-08-01 17:52:05 UTC
Tengu should be fine

Yaay!!!!
Quinn Corvez
Perkone
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-08-01 18:00:07 UTC
I would hold off from training a T3 and train weapon systems and tank first.
Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#7 - 2013-08-02 06:37:21 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
[quote=Lord Xyon]
So IDK, might be a chicken little situation, might not. If one started training right now, it'd be 2mos until you were well skilled for the specific fit one was looking at running and so there'd be at least another 3 - 5 months use out of it before CCP pulls all our underwear over our heads.


You might get longer than that, not sure if CCP has listed the order of their changes but they have not even implemented the Indy or HAC changes yet.

I'm hoping the legion is left alone as Its not the best at the moment. (one can live in hope)
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#8 - 2013-08-02 08:22:20 UTC
Even without any nerf, BS+Logi ist vastly superior to a single Tengu for c3 ratting. On par with or even better than two Tengus even. So I don't think the training time is worth it only for PvE.

.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-08-02 09:25:28 UTC
When the local reps get buffed, there will be a lot of ships that are capable of running sleeper sites without logi support.

By all means, train cruisers to level 5 but don't train specifically for a T3 until CCP have confirmed how they plan to change them.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#10 - 2013-08-02 09:34:27 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Lord Xyon wrote:

I doubt the nerf is going to be too serious though. Everytime there is a nerf you get the Sky is Falling reaction. Look back at when they nerfed the range of heavy missiles.

Except in this case T3's are already well balanced except a couple of specific issues,

come on you cant possible believe this
Quote:

a dev said they should be put down like rabid dogs, and the HAC's were rebalanced and CCP still didn't get them right. So, assuming T3's are going to be rebalanced to give HAC's a role and not overlap with other T2's specific roles, then that basically puts the T3's in a box labeled "GIMP" only to be taken out when wanting to subject it to some form of perversion.

quote that DEVs post plz because i have the feeling you might have interpreted it wrong

Quote:

So IDK, might be a chicken little situation, might not. If one started training right now, it'd be 2mos until you were well skilled for the specific fit one was looking at running and so there'd be at least another 3 - 5 months use out of it before CCP pulls all our underwear over our heads.

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-08-02 10:19:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Ellendras Silver wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
Lord Xyon wrote:

I doubt the nerf is going to be too serious though. Everytime there is a nerf you get the Sky is Falling reaction. Look back at when they nerfed the range of heavy missiles.

Except in this case T3's are already well balanced except a couple of specific issues,

come on you cant possible believe this


It's true when you look at T3s from the perspective of a wormhole dweller.
* Their tank and dps is close to that of a T1 battle ship but they don't have the utility of a battle ship.
* They are slower and have worse damage projection than a HAC
* They are roughly equivalent to a faction BC and massively inferior to a pirate faction BS
* They allow small gangs to jump someone running a sight without the need for bringing 5+ logistic ships
* They enable a group to enter a hostile wormhole and fight without getting insta-popped due to the home team advantage
* They allow wormhole fleets to be effective with relatively small numbers

The alternative to bringing a 10 man T3 gang is bringing a 20 man HAC fleet and personally, i don't want that style of null sec pvp to come to wormhole space.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#12 - 2013-08-02 12:21:27 UTC
Your argument only makes sense assuming that your T3s will be nerfed while your opponents will somehow still field un-nerfed T3s against you. Right now, almost everyone in w-space flies T3s. If T3s should get nerfed hard (which is not a fact), then either everyone will then fly crappy T3s, or everyone will fly something else. In both cases, your 10 people will still be worth as much as they are now, relative to their potential opponents.

As for the insta-popping (alluding to dread-blap I assume), HACs are already better at avoiding that, as they should be, and in any case it's a fringe issue.

.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-08-02 12:47:50 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Your argument only makes sense assuming that your T3s will be nerfed while your opponents will somehow still field un-nerfed T3s against you. Right now, almost everyone in w-space flies T3s. If T3s should get nerfed hard (which is not a fact), then either everyone will then fly crappy T3s, or everyone will fly something else. In both cases, your 10 people will still be worth as much as they are now, relative to their potential opponents.

As for the insta-popping (alluding to dread-blap I assume), HACs are already better at avoiding that, as they should be, and in any case it's a fringe issue.


I assume you are talking to me...

My argument assumes that, if T3 are nerfed below the abilities of HACs, people fighting in their home system will field T1 and pirate faction battle ships to reproduce the old dps/tank of a T3, where as anyone coming into that system will be be forced to bring weaker and more vulnerable ships due to mass limits.

A fleet of HACs jumping into a hostile home system could lose 20% of their fleet before they have time to pull range off the wormhole. Point being, T3 enable us to brawl on a wormhole, where as HACs are forced to kite.

In the case of fighting someone in a sleeper site, you will need to bring more HACs to take down a capital in the same time as the current T3s can. In addition you will need to bring in more logistics ships to keep those HACs alive. This only encourages people to increase the size of their corp/alliance/fleet.

Of course, this is only my personal opinion but i'd like to hear your rebuttal.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
chris elliot
Treasury Department
Plug N Play
#14 - 2013-08-04 09:38:27 UTC  |  Edited by: chris elliot
Ellendras Silver wrote:

quote that DEVs post plz because i have the feeling you might have interpreted it wrong



That would be the CCP Blithering Idiot post, here.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2013-08-04 14:03:11 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Even without any nerf, BS+Logi ist vastly superior to a single Tengu for c3 ratting. On par with or even better than two Tengus even. So I don't think the training time is worth it only for PvE.


A T3 can escape from a covops Proteus before it can lock and scram you. A BS can't.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#16 - 2013-08-06 11:04:52 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Of course, this is only my personal opinion but i'd like to hear your rebuttal.

Sorry for the delay, I only waste time on the forums while at work and I had a few days off so I played EVE instead Blink

Rek Seven wrote:
My argument assumes that, if T3 are nerfed below the abilities of HACs, people fighting in their home system will field T1 and pirate faction battle ships to reproduce the old dps/tank of a T3, where as anyone coming into that system will be be forced to bring weaker and more vulnerable ships due to mass limits.

I believe that this assumption is incorrect. Battleships always take full damage while HACs can sig-tank and evade damage with their high mobility. Using battleships will not give the home team an edge. Or only if they're all Vindicators and Machariels.

But even then, by using battleships as backbone of their fleet, the home team would give up the option of pursuing the other team through the wormhole, so every ship from the attacking team could jump out when threatened while the home team is stuck and can only win or die, or suicide half their fleet by jumping out to kill the hole.

.
Ellyaana
Doomheim
#17 - 2013-08-06 14:21:17 UTC
chris elliot wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:

quote that DEVs post plz because i have the feeling you might have interpreted it wrong



That would be the CCP Blithering Idiot post, here.


Quote:
It doesn't necessarily means nerfing them to oblivion and beyond


I'm going to assume you just skipped over this part of the Dev post.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#18 - 2013-08-06 14:39:54 UTC
And this part is also funny:

Quote:
What needs to be done before having Navy Battlecruisers, in no particular order


Well we already have Navy Battlecruisers now, and still T3s haven't been rebalanced/nerfed yet. That old dev post seems not very relevant anymore... especially considering that Ytterbium appears not to be at the helm of rebalancing these days.

.
Jez Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-08-06 17:03:27 UTC
So the "T3 nerf" is based on a post by a dev that is almost a year old, and doesn't actually say its a nerf (other than the rabid dog analogy, which i'd be tempted to take with a pinch of salt).
stup idity
#20 - 2013-08-06 17:19:15 UTC
Jez Amatin wrote:
So the "T3 nerf" is based on a post by a dev that is almost a year old, and doesn't actually say its a nerf (other than the rabid dog analogy, which i'd be tempted to take with a pinch of salt).


It's the same post that said we won't get any Navy-BCs before several other things happen. And we all know how this part played out.

I am the Herald of all beings that are me.
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