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[Odyssey 1.1] Local Armor and Shield repair module changes

First post
Author
Yeshmiel
Taggart Transdimensional
Solyaris Chtonium
#321 - 2013-08-06 00:11:16 UTC
Great direction but nerfing the value of the higher end mods is really screwing a lot of people out of a lot of isk. No, I don't have any but this is an effect that needs to be considered.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#322 - 2013-08-06 01:04:37 UTC
Cycle duration is far more important then total rep amount, imo. Armor reps are already pretty efficient, and this is going to swing PVE fittings heavily towards armor.

For PVP, which is where armor has a problem, throughput is less of an issue then the delay. In small gang warfare, 12 seconds (medium repper) is enough time to go from not yet targeted to dead. This change will not affect pvp at all, except for some niche areas (frigate vs frigate, capitals). Cut the delay in half, cut the reps/cycle and cap use to match, and THEN take a look at throughput.
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#323 - 2013-08-06 01:27:16 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:
Cycle duration is far more important then total rep amount, imo. Armor reps are already pretty efficient, and this is going to swing PVE fittings heavily towards armor.

For PVP, which is where armor has a problem, throughput is less of an issue then the delay. In small gang warfare, 12 seconds (medium repper) is enough time to go from not yet targeted to dead. This change will not affect pvp at all, except for some niche areas (frigate vs frigate, capitals). Cut the delay in half, cut the reps/cycle and cap use to match, and THEN take a look at throughput.

The problem with that is, when all the numbers are boiled down armor and shields rep about the same amount of HP in the same amount of time for about the same amount of cap.
The big difference is, shields will also passive regenerate during this.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#324 - 2013-08-06 08:32:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ellendras Silver
ok don't feel like reading 17 pages of replies... so it might been asked before..

does this 15% boost stack with siege/triage ?

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]

Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#325 - 2013-08-06 09:44:34 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Judas II wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

  • Increase the rep amount for all armor repairers (including AARs) by 15%
  • Increase the shield bonus of all shield boosters (except for deadspace/officer reps and ASBs) by 15%

  • Daft question, are faction Shield boosters buffed or not? (Dread Guristas, Pith A/B/C/X-type etc etc)


    Faction boosters like Dread Guristas are buffed, Deadspace boosters like Pith are not.


    This makes the pith c-type strictly worse than DG


    You are correct, that's a detail that I had missed and since the rep bonus increase from T2 to DG boosters is twice as much as the rep bonus increase from T2 to DB armor reps it probably means the DG/CN boosters need to get excluded from this change. Gonna do some more thinking and get back to you.



    Guristas line Boost = Base Boost [t1] * 1.05 ^ meta-level
    Angel line Activation Cost = Base Activation Cost[t1] / 1.05 ^ meta-level

    Smooth out them anomolies
    Roime
    Shiva Furnace
    #326 - 2013-08-06 09:46:17 UTC
    Ines Tegator wrote:
    Cycle duration is far more important then total rep amount, imo. Armor reps are already pretty efficient, and this is going to swing PVE fittings heavily towards armor.

    For PVP, which is where armor has a problem, throughput is less of an issue then the delay. In small gang warfare, 12 seconds (medium repper) is enough time to go from not yet targeted to dead. This change will not affect pvp at all, except for some niche areas (frigate vs frigate, capitals). Cut the delay in half, cut the reps/cycle and cap use to match, and THEN take a look at throughput.


    Then again, medium rep cycle 5.5 seconds in practical situations. If you cut the base cycle time in half, armor reps would work in under 3 seconds, which makes them too much like shield reps.

    Being forced to anticipate is the drawback for a rather serious amount reps. I get 1589 hp/s peak reps against CNAM on my Myrm without links.

    .

    Pelea Ming
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #327 - 2013-08-06 15:33:59 UTC
    Wolf, when you decide to start talking real fits, that's fine, but no abaddon is going to go self repping for over 6k hp/s.
    War Kitten
    Panda McLegion
    #328 - 2013-08-06 15:37:07 UTC
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Michael Harari wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    Judas II wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:

  • Increase the rep amount for all armor repairers (including AARs) by 15%
  • Increase the shield bonus of all shield boosters (except for deadspace/officer reps and ASBs) by 15%

  • Daft question, are faction Shield boosters buffed or not? (Dread Guristas, Pith A/B/C/X-type etc etc)


    Faction boosters like Dread Guristas are buffed, Deadspace boosters like Pith are not.


    This makes the pith c-type strictly worse than DG


    You are correct, that's a detail that I had missed and since the rep bonus increase from T2 to DG boosters is twice as much as the rep bonus increase from T2 to DB armor reps it probably means the DG/CN boosters need to get excluded from this change. Gonna do some more thinking and get back to you.



    Any update on how you're going to handle this little bit yet?

    Personally I'd be happy if you boosted the Pith C-type a little to put it on top of the DG booster and call it a day.

    Obviously I may be a biased Pith C-type booster owner... :)

    I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.

    Harvey James
    The Sengoku Legacy
    #329 - 2013-08-06 15:46:23 UTC
    Pelea Ming wrote:
    Wolf, when you decide to start talking real fits, that's fine, but no abaddon is going to go self repping for over 6k hp/s.


    Abbadon's pitiful cap recharge makes it not even worth bothering with surely

    T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

    ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

    Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

    Pelea Ming
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #330 - 2013-08-06 22:12:23 UTC
    Harvey James wrote:
    Pelea Ming wrote:
    Wolf, when you decide to start talking real fits, that's fine, but no abaddon is going to go self repping for over 6k hp/s.


    Abbadon's pitiful cap recharge makes it not even worth bothering with surely

    I agree, and it's something I've been bashing away at to CCP for several months now, even tried involving the CSM, and the heart of the response overall I seem to get is "go F* off, we don't want to be bothered about it."
    W0lf Crendraven
    The Tuskers
    The Tuskers Co.
    #331 - 2013-08-07 00:32:53 UTC
    Pelea Ming wrote:
    Wolf, when you decide to start talking real fits, that's fine, but no abaddon is going to go self repping for over 6k hp/s.


    I know, and no one woudl spend 6 bil pimping it to tank those amounts, it however can do that, which is important as that blinged out generic shield fits get compared to t2 armour tankers and deemed op while the blinged armour tank never gets mentioned.
    Pelea Ming
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #332 - 2013-08-07 05:20:02 UTC
    you don't even pay attention to what's being said. No properly fit, (regardless of how expensive) Abaddon is going to rep 6k hp/s.

    Yet you, yet again, just said it does.
    Merii Kha'sen
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #333 - 2013-08-07 06:28:55 UTC
    Ellendras Silver wrote:
    ok don't feel like reading 17 pages of replies... so it might been asked before..

    does this 15% boost stack with siege/triage ?


    Yes, since the 15% is to the base amount of armor repaired.

    If your repper repairs 1000 armor now, unfit, with no bonuses applied to it, it will repair 1150 armor post-change. At this point any skills and bonuses will stack on top of that, including any modules and rigs that affect the amount.
    GeneralNukeEm
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #334 - 2013-08-07 08:12:47 UTC  |  Edited by: GeneralNukeEm
    Pelea Ming wrote:
    no abaddon is going to go self repping for over 6k hp/s.

    I'm only a skilless orbit-F1 nullsec supercap blobber and thus don't actually care about elite solo pvp active tanks, but you could at least try applying the scientific method (aka look in EFT) and seeing whether your claims are true.

    http://i.imgur.com/NloMzDx.jpg (current TQ stats)

    Overloaded it tanks ~over 9000~ DPS.
    Veshta Yoshida
    PIE Inc.
    Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
    #335 - 2013-08-07 08:20:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
    GeneralNukeEm wrote:
    Pelea Ming wrote:
    no abaddon is going to go self repping for over 6k hp/s.

    I'm only a skilless orbit-F1 nullsec supercap blobber and thus don't actually care about elite solo pvp active tanks, but you could at least try applying the scientific method (aka look in EFT) and seeing whether your claims are true.

    http://i.imgur.com/NloMzDx.jpg (current TQ stats)

    Overloaded it tanks ~over 9000~ DPS.

    At zero ISK .. where do you shop? Big smile

    When it comes to pew one must make one's assumptions based on what is realistic/feasible/cost effective .. and unless one is a Russian oligarch or an American banker with a PLEX selling network that fit is .. hmmmmmm.
    GeneralNukeEm
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #336 - 2013-08-07 08:22:37 UTC  |  Edited by: GeneralNukeEm
    Pretty sure it costs less than a supercap, not that the original claim had any restrictions about cost.
    Andrew Indy
    Cleaning Crew
    #337 - 2013-08-07 08:55:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrew Indy
    W0lf Crendraven wrote:
    Pelea Ming wrote:
    Wolf, when you decide to start talking real fits, that's fine, but no abaddon is going to go self repping for over 6k hp/s.


    I know, and no one woudl spend 6 bil pimping it to tank those amounts, it however can do that, which is important as that blinged out generic shield fits get compared to t2 armour tankers and deemed op while the blinged armour tank never gets mentioned.


    Pretty easy to sort this out. i'm using large/XL in this example with the best in class mods


    Type - Amount - Cycle (secs) - Amount per Second - Amount per Cap

    T2 Armor - 800 - 15 - 53.33 - 2
    T2 Armor 1.1 - 920 - 15 - 61.33 - 2.3
    ARR - 1350 - 15 - 90 - 3.375
    ARR 1.1 - 1552.5 - 15 - 103.5 - 3.88
    True S - 900 - 15 - 60 - 2
    True S 1.1 - 1035 - 15 - 69 - 2.3
    CorpX - 1260 - 15 - 84 - 2.8
    CorpX 1.1 - 1449 - 15 - 96.6 - 3.22

    T2 Shield L - 240 - 4 - 60 - 1.5
    T2 Shield L 1.1 - 276 - 4 - 69 - 1.73
    CN L - 240 - 3.2 - 75 - 1.5
    CN L 1.1 - 276 - 3.2 - 86.25 - 1.73
    ASB L - 390 - 4 - 97.5 - NA
    PithX - 336 - 3.2 - 105 - 2.1

    T2 Shield XL - 600 - 5 - 120 - 1.5
    T2 Shield XL 1.1 690 - 5 - 138 - 1.73
    CN XL - 600 - 4 - 150 - 1.5
    CN XL 1.1 - 690 - 4 - 172.5 - 1.73
    ASB XL - 980 - 5 - 196 - NA
    PithX - 840 - 4 - 210 - 2.1

    Not sure if its clear but for Faction and T2 things are fairly balanced , Shields use more Cap but booster more and sooner. But of these are all getting a boost.

    Then look at ASB vs AAR, the current ASB L beats the AAR in boost amount, boosting straight away and cap use (none). After the changes the AAR boosts slightly more but still use cap and boosts at the end the cycle and lets not even talk about the XL ASB.

    DS L Mods look OK, a DS L mod boosts more than a DS L Armour Mod but uses more cap (true before and after the buff). XL however becomes an Issue as the XL boosts over double the DS Armour mod

    Then through Amps into the equation and stuff shifts towards shields.

    Edit.

    I have a mission Paladin with an X type rep and a Friend has a Golem with X type booster+Amp . Each with 2X Resist mods (2x type hardeners)

    He uses 85 cap per second and reps 1417 DPS vs sansha, I rep 700DPS vs Sansha and use 75. Now i must admit that his ship does not have great Cap regen but as far as the mods go the Booster is a lot more efficient not to mention that his ship has a 0 base resist against EM while mine as a base of 50.
    Akturous
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #338 - 2013-08-07 09:44:24 UTC
    Yeshmiel wrote:
    Great direction but nerfing the value of the higher end mods is really screwing a lot of people out of a lot of isk. No, I don't have any but this is an effect that needs to be considered.


    Market speculation isn't really, nor should it be considered in balancing ever.

    Vote Item Heck One for CSM8

    Jezza McWaffle
    Epicentre Syndicate
    The Singularity.
    #339 - 2013-08-07 09:48:46 UTC
    Akturous wrote:
    Yeshmiel wrote:
    Great direction but nerfing the value of the higher end mods is really screwing a lot of people out of a lot of isk. No, I don't have any but this is an effect that needs to be considered.


    Market speculation isn't really, nor should it be considered in balancing ever.


    Then how do you balance deadspace and faction items.

    Wormholes worst badass | Checkout my Wormhole blog

    Sigras
    Conglomo
    #340 - 2013-08-07 09:55:09 UTC
    GeneralNukeEm wrote:
    Pelea Ming wrote:
    no abaddon is going to go self repping for over 6k hp/s.

    I'm only a skilless orbit-F1 nullsec supercap blobber and thus don't actually care about elite solo pvp active tanks, but you could at least try applying the scientific method (aka look in EFT) and seeing whether your claims are true.

    http://i.imgur.com/NloMzDx.jpg (current TQ stats)

    Overloaded it tanks ~over 9000~ DPS.

    It appears that you misquoted the lady

    Pelea Ming wrote:
    you don't even pay attention to what's being said. No properly fit, (regardless of how expensive) Abaddon is going to rep 6k hp/s.

    Now returning to your picture . . . if you think that is a proper fit you do not belong in PL