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[Odyssey 1.1] Command Ships

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seth Hendar
I love you miners
#1721 - 2013-08-21 12:54:45 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
MJ Incognito wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
because if you want your link booster to absorb the alpha of a 2000 man fleet (which seems to be some people's concern), you really have little choice...


I think the concern atm is that it can't absorb the alpha of 16 dudes.... so even in a 250 man max fleet fight.... it dies way to easily.

General rule of thumb is that if you can't take about 50 ships worth of alpha.... you remove any skill for a max fleet to alpha through you and let just about anyone do it.

The issue with tank comes back to the stupid nature of Logistics ships. ALL SHIPS deserve more hp and local tank and logistics really need a considerable nerf. EVE needs to implement a degrading HP system into combat where logistics cannot repair a ship to 100% health.

I would say that shields and armor need to have a base recharge cap amount that affects where their max hp can return to. This would help a ship survive with logistics, but degrade over time when receiving constant DPS. It keeps value with logistics, but removes this unbreakable bullshit in fleet fights.

Recharges could be something like 2 minutes with similar peaks and valleys as the normal shield and capacitor recharge rates now.... only these would affect max cap and not current cap.



i'm sorry but i don't know ANY subcap able to survive that much alpha

10 alphanado is what is required to alpha any subcap at around 100 km, only time someone survived the alpha, was a 3 plated badon, but the 2nd volley got rid of it, so to be SURE, 20 nado would alpha ANY subcap.

i agree that the CS need a bit more survivability, but the numbers you are talking here are a bit too high, we need them able to survive better than actually, not be unkillable!

what i think a CS should be, is a big tank, providing boost, and not that great dps, an ALL V CS with a correct tank whould not reach a T1 CBC dps, i.e no more than 500 for an armor, no more than 650-700 for a shield one (talking here with t2 fittings / no implants)
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#1722 - 2013-08-21 12:57:21 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
navy vexor is my favourite little brawler. once I figured out how to fit the high slots I was surprised CCP allowed it onto TQ... :-)

did you tried a shield / sentry nano one?

give it a shot, worth it Twisted

perfect as DPS support for small fleets, first time i brought mine to our little roam, everyone laught at me...then we fought some dudes..then they saw the KM.

now they train for a navy vexor ^^

we plan on coupling them with some scythe fleet, the combo will be .....interesting
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1723 - 2013-08-21 12:59:22 UTC
just for a laugh, yesterday I fitted up a max-alpha-resist vulture with a-types, links and mind link.

then I overheated the invulnerability fields.

Guess how much EHP it had?

spoiler below....








~650K ehp

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#1724 - 2013-08-21 13:01:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Lephia DeGrande
I for myself like the Command Ship changes and i am really excited about the New Eos and yeah i know they shouldnt be a Capital in BC size... but, i am kinda sad that in near Future the Command Ship in this incomming Form will not be like my Old Damnnation.

On the other Hand flying the Damnnation as bait in a small Gang or the Eos as Command Brawler is ******* epic.

The only downside in my opinion is there will be more and more Focus on Capitals in Fleet Fights and i am Little Bit sick and tired of these massiv cap blobs, but thats Eve Online i guess...


Oh and btw, give the Eos some more Dronebay... Come on CCP you can do it!!

Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#1725 - 2013-08-21 13:09:30 UTC
Lephia DeGrande wrote:
I for myself like the Command Ship changes and i am really excited about the New Eos and yeah i know they shouldnt be a Capital in BC size... but, i am kinda sad that in near Future the Command Ship in this incomming Form will not be like my Old Damnnation.

On the other Hand flying the Damnnation as bait in a small Gang or the Eos as Command Brawler is ******* epic.

The only downside in my opinion is there will be more and more Focus on Capitals in Fleet Fights and i am Little Bit sick and tired of these massiv cap blobs, but thats Eve Online i guess...


Oh and btw, give the Eos some more Dronebay... Come on CCP you can do it!!

+1, more drone bay and a myrm based hull is required for a gallente CS drone boat
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1726 - 2013-08-21 13:19:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerick Ludhowe
Vulfen wrote:


Simple,

The Abso is a focused turret ship, always has been
The EOS's guns are actually it secondary weapon, the drones are primary



It's really not that "simple" considering the astarte is a "Focused turret ship" and it gets 2 launchers... I'd say the astarte is actually an eve more focused turret ship compared to the abso as it has 11 effective turrets compared to 10.

As for the eos, you're right on the money tho. (it still should get 325m3 drone bay tho)


So yeah, give the absolution 11 effective turrets (copy pasta astarte gun bonuses) and this is solved.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1727 - 2013-08-21 13:20:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerick Ludhowe
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
just for a laugh, yesterday I fitted up a max-alpha-resist vulture with a-types, links and mind link.

then I overheated the invulnerability fields.

Guess how much EHP it had?

spoiler below....




~650K ehp


Damnation can get well over 1m HP in a similar setup and it has a significantly smaller sig.

So while your super vulture most certainly is a brick and will eat lots of alpha making it obviously "viable", it's still nothing compared to a damnation.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1728 - 2013-08-21 13:42:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
just for a laugh, yesterday I fitted up a max-alpha-resist vulture with a-types, links and mind link.

then I overheated the invulnerability fields.

Guess how much EHP it had?

spoiler below....




~650K ehp


Damnation can get well over 1m HP in a similar setup and it has a significantly smaller sig.

So while your super vulture most certainly is a brick and will eat lots of alpha, it's still nothing compared to a damnation.


That's a fair point. Another fair point is that the vulture can command a shield fleet consisting of cruise-missile-bearing battleships that can project 800+dps out to something like 250km.

I cannot think of an armour fleet that can do that (let's consider only subcaps for a moment).

So it's possible that a hypothetical vulture-led fleet could have a number of minutes of risk-free dps against a hypothetical damnation-led fleet.

I'm not here to argue which ship is strongest, I think what I am saying is that an FC has to look at the whole package when planning his battle.

Distance is tank, dps is tank, tank is tank and outsmarting your opponent is tank.

It is never as simple as just comparing the numbers of one aspect of 2 ships.

Anyway, I just wanted to post that number since up till now, I hadn't seen anyone else do it - and man-oh-man there's been a lot of whining about 'huge', 'too much', 'not enough' and 'shield fleets are doomed' without any evidence to back those claims.

Specifically, the claim that 20 tornados would alpha any command ship. It's just not true.

To alpha the a-type vulture you'd need (correct me if I got this wrong) 55 stationary tornados, all hitting in the precise moment between the first yellow-box and the first logi reps landing. If there are multiple logis already on the comand ship (there are going to be, right?) those 55 volleys need to land within approximately half a second. That just is not realistic.

It's going to have to be more like 150 tornados, or maybe even 200. And that's assuming you didn't stealth-bomb them before fielding your command ship. We all know that those 200 tornados can be erased with (let's say) 7 bombers instantaneously. Should we say that tornados are useless? That they need a 200k buffer? That bombers should be nerfed?

Good FCs will think it through. They won't get too excited by the numbers of a given ship. They'll see the macro picture, and the importance of individual acts of strategic merit.

edit:
he're one example of a ship that delivers 800dps to 250km:

[Raven, long range]

Ballistic Control System II x 3
Signal Amplifier II
Damage Control II

Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script x2
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II x2
EM Ward Amplifier II
Large Shield Extender II x 2

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile x 6
[Empty High slot]

Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1729 - 2013-08-21 14:23:03 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


Specifically, the claim that 20 tornados would alpha any command ship. It's just not true.



No doubt, there is always tons of unfounded over exaggeration in these threads, and the quote above obviously highlights one.

However, those saying that a Deimos can be volley'd by 3 nados are also grossly exaggerating.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1730 - 2013-08-21 14:30:13 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


Specifically, the claim that 20 tornados would alpha any command ship. It's just not true.



No doubt, there is always tons of unfounded over exaggeration in these threads, and the quote above obviously highlights one.

However, those saying that a Deimos can be volley'd by 3 nados are also grossly exaggerating.


maybe not volleyed but certainly killed by them, no doubt mate. One of my deimoses was whacked by a 'nado and ishtar (bouncers + TP) pair.

I came back for the ishtar and managed to get him alone. He had neuts and an active shield tank. Took AGES to eventually kill him and it was by no means easy.

And have you seen the guy on sisi who flies the active shield-tanked deimos? He showed me his fit in confidence so I won't repeat it here. That thing is *absolutely* unkillable. Not because it's a deimos, but because it's an active shield tank on a T2 cruiser hull. Any of the HACs could fit that same fit.

If the deimos is overpowered, so are all shield boosters (apologies for bleeding this into the wrong thread).

Eve just ain't a fair game. Now, let's go kill someone :-)

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
bloodknight2
Revenu.Quebec
#1731 - 2013-08-21 14:32:31 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
bloodknight2 wrote:
Why most CS can fit 5 turrets-2 launchers or 2 turrets-5 launchers, when the absolution only has 5 turrets, no launcher and the EOS 4 turrets, no launcher?


If you ever actually fit launchers in those slots, you're terrible.


Nah, it wasn't about fitting missiles on it, but simply why it has 2 "unused" hi slot when it "badly" needs a fourth med.

The absolution doesn't need a nos (not like it will be useful anymore after the incoming nos change...) and with one less turret, it will have even more cap.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#1732 - 2013-08-21 14:43:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Deacon Abox
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
just for a laugh, yesterday I fitted up a max-alpha-resist vulture with a-types, links and mind link.

then I overheated the invulnerability fields.

Guess how much EHP it had?

spoiler below....




~650K ehp


Damnation can get well over 1m HP in a similar setup and it has a significantly smaller sig.

So while your super vulture most certainly is a brick and will eat lots of alpha, it's still nothing compared to a damnation.


That's a fair point. Another fair point is that the vulture can command a shield fleet consisting of cruise-missile-bearing battleships that can project 800+dps out to something like 250km.

I cannot think of an armour fleet that can do that (let's consider only subcaps for a moment).

. . .

edit:
he're one example of a ship that delivers 800dps to 250km:

[Raven, long range]

Ballistic Control System II x 3
Signal Amplifier II
Damage Control II

Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script x2
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II x2
EM Ward Amplifier II
Large Shield Extender II x 2

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Cruise Missile x 6
[Empty High slot]

Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I
Large Warhead Flare Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I

250km range has been superfluous for quite a while now since probing and warping will realistically negate anything over 150km. However that only means those ravens could be nano'd and have more resists (or maybe even a prop mod which you forgotP), instead of all the lock range and weapon range mods and rigs, so your point is still valid. Shield is nowhere near inferior.

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1733 - 2013-08-21 14:57:30 UTC
bloodknight2 wrote:
Nah, it wasn't about fitting missiles on it, but simply why it has 2 "unused" hi slot when it "badly" needs a fourth med.

The absolution doesn't need a nos (not like it will be useful anymore after the incoming nos change...) and with one less turret, it will have even more cap.


Have you considered that the command ships just might have utility highs for oh, I dunno, command links or something?
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1734 - 2013-08-21 15:04:08 UTC
Sal Landry wrote:
bloodknight2 wrote:
Nah, it wasn't about fitting missiles on it, but simply why it has 2 "unused" hi slot when it "badly" needs a fourth med.

The absolution doesn't need a nos (not like it will be useful anymore after the incoming nos change...) and with one less turret, it will have even more cap.


Have you considered that the command ships just might have utility highs for oh, I dunno, command links or something?


If you want to provide links, get a damnation or brick eos. Absolution is not a good choice in regards to it's competition.
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#1735 - 2013-08-21 15:10:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Dav Varan
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
just for a laugh, yesterday I fitted up a max-alpha-resist vulture with a-types, links and mind link.

then I overheated the invulnerability fields.

Guess how much EHP it had?

spoiler below....

~650K ehp


a-type are for paupers.
Get Estamel's or Get out.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1736 - 2013-08-21 15:27:43 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
just for a laugh, yesterday I fitted up a max-alpha-resist vulture with a-types, links and mind link.

then I overheated the invulnerability fields.

Guess how much EHP it had?

spoiler below....

~650K ehp


a-type are for paupers.
Get Estamel's or Get out.


Yup, 850k EHP with Estamel's

So that's 300 tornados then.

Is it even possible to get 300 people in eve to even look at the screen at the same time without running off to the toilet, eat, do their homework, argue with their wives, beat their children and generally enrage an FC?

Nah, that Vulture is as safe as houses...

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Mister Vee
Magellanic Itg
Goonswarm Federation
#1737 - 2013-08-21 15:39:13 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I also want to quickly address the concern I'm seeing about my comment that we want to someday remove the +HP bonus from the Damnation.

To be clear, we are not removing the Damnation's HP bonus in Odyssey 1.1, as right now it helps the Damnation fill a useful role that would be lost if we removed it.

However in the long run, adding HP is not the solution to key ships being volleyed off the field. As EVE battles grow in numbers and coordination people are going to find a way to volley just about anything we design, and then we'll be right back where we started. We're not going to get into an escalating design battle against the dps and alpha of player fleets.

The solution to the problem is to sidestep it by reducing reliance on a few lynchpin ships. The reason that command ships have this problem while other key fleet ships (like logistics, recons or dictors) don't is because people can bring redundant numbers of those other classes. When we get the capability to remove offgrid links our plan is to also replace the way links apply so that losing one key ship won't mean you need to take your ball and go home.
Now of course command ships are larger, more expensive and skill intensive than those other key classes, so it will still make sense for them to have significantly better tanks than a recon ship. However at that point the perceived need to have over 300k EHP will be significantly lessened.


I simply don't agree with this at all. We have had extremely large scale fights not long ago and it proved that current damnation hp is in a very balanced place. The current problem is that only the damnation hits the ehp sweet spot, while it's completely impossible for a vulture to achieve the same survivability. Not to mention the claymore...

Nobody is asking for a hp buff over current damnation levels. Just that shield gets the same benefit. Skirmish also needs something similar, since so much is balanced around the entire fleet having skirmish bonus - without it, bombers would be even more overpowered and sig tanking doctrines would die.

Also, if a 4000+ man fight is something you want to escalate rather than thin down, I have serious concerns about the long-term vision of sov/fleet warfare. There is no hardware strong enough to make fights of that scale actually enjoyable (10% tidi for hours and hours is not).
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1738 - 2013-08-21 15:45:09 UTC
@ Fozzie

any chance of increasing the Vultures pg and cpu to make full use of the mid slots as that ASB uses up a lot aswell as Hardeners?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1739 - 2013-08-21 15:47:45 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
@ Fozzie

any chance of increasing the Vultures pg and cpu to make full use of the mid slots as that ASB uses up a lot aswell as Hardeners?


I'd much rather see the mid/low layout on the nh/vulture swapped.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1740 - 2013-08-21 15:49:06 UTC
Mister Vee wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I also want to quickly address the concern I'm seeing about my comment that we want to someday remove the +HP bonus from the Damnation.

To be clear, we are not removing the Damnation's HP bonus in Odyssey 1.1, as right now it helps the Damnation fill a useful role that would be lost if we removed it.

However in the long run, adding HP is not the solution to key ships being volleyed off the field. As EVE battles grow in numbers and coordination people are going to find a way to volley just about anything we design, and then we'll be right back where we started. We're not going to get into an escalating design battle against the dps and alpha of player fleets.

The solution to the problem is to sidestep it by reducing reliance on a few lynchpin ships. The reason that command ships have this problem while other key fleet ships (like logistics, recons or dictors) don't is because people can bring redundant numbers of those other classes. When we get the capability to remove offgrid links our plan is to also replace the way links apply so that losing one key ship won't mean you need to take your ball and go home.
Now of course command ships are larger, more expensive and skill intensive than those other key classes, so it will still make sense for them to have significantly better tanks than a recon ship. However at that point the perceived need to have over 300k EHP will be significantly lessened.


I simply don't agree with this at all. We have had extremely large scale fights not long ago and it proved that current damnation hp is in a very balanced place. The current problem is that only the damnation hits the ehp sweet spot, while it's completely impossible for a vulture to achieve the same survivability. Not to mention the claymore...

Nobody is asking for a hp buff over current damnation levels. Just that shield gets the same benefit. Skirmish also needs something similar, since so much is balanced around the entire fleet having skirmish bonus - without it, bombers would be even more overpowered and sig tanking doctrines would die.

Also, if a 4000+ man fight is something you want to escalate rather than thin down, I have serious concerns about the long-term vision of sov/fleet warfare. There is no hardware strong enough to make fights of that scale actually enjoyable (10% tidi for hours and hours is not).


See previous post, vulture can get 800k ehp (for a price).

CCP are working on the scalability of their server blades. It is very possible to rebuild the eve servers to enable 4000-man fights in real time. Doing so requires re-architecting their software to allow a system's mechanics to be parallelised across multiple servers. This is normally done via a messaging system like Solace, 49 West, etc.

Eve is an old game and unfortunately currently has a single-threaded architecture - about as far from the parallel model as you can get. They are working on it though, slowly (and I imagine carefully). I read just recently that they are splitting out the calculation of skill/module effects to another server and just publishing back the final stats to the system blade, thus saving many thousands of calculations each time someone re-ships, loses a ship, gains a skill or gets podded.

I have done this kind of work in the financial industry. It's *hard* and takes time.

But I think they'll get there.



Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".