These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Warfare & Tactics

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next page
 

Faction Points are the most impactful pvp mods.

Author
Phaade
Proioxis Assault Force
Rogue Caldari Union
#1 - 2013-07-31 05:12:41 UTC
People argue that SP is the largest roadblock to successfully PvP. I disagree. Money is.

The majority of fights (particularly in FW space) are dictated by those with a faction point. Scramming out to 14km and pointing out to 36km is ludicrous. They completely change the dynamics of a fight, granting those with that ability a massive advantage over those without.

Scramming, for obvious reasons will get your kiting ship caught much more easily than 10.8km, making it considerably easier to effectively use a brawling ship. Long points to 36 damn KM make them able to kite outside reasonable firing ranges while removing your ability to escape. You slingshot them to 29km, spamming warp, and nothing. Then you overheat your MWD to slingshot them to 36KM, and still nothing. These are the most PvP breaking mods, well aside from ECM, but that's another debate.
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
Awesome Alliance
#2 - 2013-07-31 05:38:03 UTC
Phaade wrote:
People argue that SP is the largest roadblock to successfully PvP. I disagree. Money is.

The majority of fights (particularly in FW space) are dictated by those with a faction point. Scramming out to 14km and pointing out to 36km is ludicrous. They completely change the dynamics of a fight, granting those with that ability a massive advantage over those without.

Scramming, for obvious reasons will get your kiting ship caught much more easily than 10.8km, making it considerably easier to effectively use a brawling ship. Long points to 36 damn KM make them able to kite outside reasonable firing ranges while removing your ability to escape. You slingshot them to 29km, spamming warp, and nothing. Then you overheat your MWD to slingshot them to 36KM, and still nothing. These are the most PvP breaking mods, well aside from ECM, but that's another debate.



Its not usually a faction point - it is Loki Boosts.

A friend in an ECM ship is the way to counter them.
ECM is not broken while ever target damping is around.

The mistake you are making is flying alone. Fly with friends.

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#3 - 2013-07-31 05:39:48 UTC
Phaade wrote:
People argue that SP is the largest roadblock to successfully PvP. I disagree. Money is.

The majority of fights (particularly in FW space) are dictated by those with a faction point. Scramming out to 14km and pointing out to 36km is ludicrous. They completely change the dynamics of a fight, granting those with that ability a massive advantage over those without.

Scramming, for obvious reasons will get your kiting ship caught much more easily than 10.8km, making it considerably easier to effectively use a brawling ship. Long points to 36 damn KM make them able to kite outside reasonable firing ranges while removing your ability to escape. You slingshot them to 29km, spamming warp, and nothing. Then you overheat your MWD to slingshot them to 36KM, and still nothing. These are the most PvP breaking mods, well aside from ECM, but that's another debate.


I completely agree. What was CCP thinking having different mods with different prices? There should be no more than one shiptype in eve, only one weapon system, a single tank type and once engaged the game should transport you and the single target you are fighting into a restricted session where both toon SP are balanced so you can fight it out on completely equal terms!

I have been saying this all along, AT LAST there is someone who agrees with me!!
Muad 'dib
The Nine Nine
#4 - 2013-07-31 09:09:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Muad 'dib
Dont tell him about the 53km point you get on any ship with domi point and loki boosts

AND definitely not about the 107km point with an arazu with the same point/links - he may just drown himself in his own tears.


What is really overpowered is officer nuet curses nuke 1200 of my cap at 100km! may they be damned!

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.

Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#5 - 2013-07-31 09:17:40 UTC
farm more isk and use faction points, problem solved
Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
Lost Obsession
#6 - 2013-07-31 09:46:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Machiavelli's Nemesis
*posts in communist thread*

How unfair it is that the bourgeois can afford to live in opulance with their faction and deadspace mods while the pubbies starve in squalor with only vanilla equipment.

Nubbins Unite! You have nothing to lose but a pile of shítfít frigates!
Anja Suorsa
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-07-31 10:03:27 UTC
Risk/Reward.

Yes, it's annoying. Not unfair though.
Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-07-31 12:46:36 UTC
People still use T2 mods? huh.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Liam Inkuras
dead.Orbit
#9 - 2013-07-31 14:18:28 UTC
Oh how I feel like a peasant using my un-boosted meta 4 long points. Such is life!

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone

Icarius
The Wings of Maak
#10 - 2013-07-31 14:44:41 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
What is really overpowered is officer nuet curses nuke 1200 of my cap at 100km! may they be damned!


Not a problem, you can still eject from your ship to save your efficiency
Cable Udan
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#11 - 2013-07-31 16:15:35 UTC
Posting in a stealth nerf everything thread.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#12 - 2013-07-31 19:54:11 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
Phaade wrote:
People argue that SP is the largest roadblock to successfully PvP. I disagree. Money is.

The majority of fights (particularly in FW space) are dictated by those with a faction point. Scramming out to 14km and pointing out to 36km is ludicrous. They completely change the dynamics of a fight, granting those with that ability a massive advantage over those without.

Scramming, for obvious reasons will get your kiting ship caught much more easily than 10.8km, making it considerably easier to effectively use a brawling ship. Long points to 36 damn KM make them able to kite outside reasonable firing ranges while removing your ability to escape. You slingshot them to 29km, spamming warp, and nothing. Then you overheat your MWD to slingshot them to 36KM, and still nothing. These are the most PvP breaking mods, well aside from ECM, but that's another debate.



Its not usually a faction point - it is Loki Boosts.

...



This. But ccp will fix this soon.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
Awesome Alliance
#13 - 2013-07-31 21:55:44 UTC
Cearain wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:
Phaade wrote:
People argue that SP is the largest roadblock to successfully PvP. I disagree. Money is.

The majority of fights (particularly in FW space) are dictated by those with a faction point. Scramming out to 14km and pointing out to 36km is ludicrous. They completely change the dynamics of a fight, granting those with that ability a massive advantage over those without.

Scramming, for obvious reasons will get your kiting ship caught much more easily than 10.8km, making it considerably easier to effectively use a brawling ship. Long points to 36 damn KM make them able to kite outside reasonable firing ranges while removing your ability to escape. You slingshot them to 29km, spamming warp, and nothing. Then you overheat your MWD to slingshot them to 36KM, and still nothing. These are the most PvP breaking mods, well aside from ECM, but that's another debate.



Its not usually a faction point - it is Loki Boosts.

...



This. But ccp will fix this soon.



Doubt it.
Will cost them too much in lost accounts.




Vizvig
Savage Blizzard
#14 - 2013-07-31 22:17:32 UTC
Is in my venture/bomber FW exists PvP ? wow
Cpt Arareb
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2013-07-31 23:21:57 UTC
the bigest problem, with those ranges you describing is on the use of off grid boosters that cant be even shoot at, great risk/reward right there, dont worry tho CCP is on the right path and will end this offgrid booster cant be shoot at bullshit , eventuallyOops
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#16 - 2013-08-01 00:37:06 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
Phaade wrote:
People argue that SP is the largest roadblock to successfully PvP. I disagree. Money is.

The majority of fights (particularly in FW space) are dictated by those with a faction point. Scramming out to 14km and pointing out to 36km is ludicrous. They completely change the dynamics of a fight, granting those with that ability a massive advantage over those without.

Scramming, for obvious reasons will get your kiting ship caught much more easily than 10.8km, making it considerably easier to effectively use a brawling ship. Long points to 36 damn KM make them able to kite outside reasonable firing ranges while removing your ability to escape. You slingshot them to 29km, spamming warp, and nothing. Then you overheat your MWD to slingshot them to 36KM, and still nothing. These are the most PvP breaking mods, well aside from ECM, but that's another debate.



Its not usually a faction point - it is Loki Boosts.

A friend in an ECM ship is the way to counter them.
ECM is not broken while ever target damping is around.

The mistake you are making is flying alone. Fly with friends.



I bolded the part that needs emphasis.... Straight up, it is off grid boosts that are the roadblock.

Tengu Links can give a ship 125% more shield rep, well over 50% more shield tank. A full set of cyrstals AND a Strong blue pill doesn't even provide those boosts...
Legion Links give the same bonuses as the Tengu, except to armor.
Loki Links give 52% more web, scram, and point range (which is why you think they are using faction modules), as well as 35% more speed and a 35% smaller sig radius (which is often equivalent to a 20-30% damage reduction).
Proteus Links give 35% stronger EWAR, projected 35% farther, and a stronger resistance to jams.

A proper fleet can have thee of the above, but generally people take one ship, and put 3 full strength and 2 1/3rd strength boosts on the same ship.

Essentially, the strength of OGBers is Broken, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a complete moron.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#17 - 2013-08-01 00:46:16 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
Cearain wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:

Its not usually a faction point - it is Loki Boosts.
...


This. But ccp will fix this soon.


Doubt it.
Will cost them too much in lost accounts.



CCP devs have stated they are unhappy with Off Grid Boosting, and are actively working to remove them. Granted, they said that in a year old dev blog, and still haven't removed them. Around that same time, they announced splitting up the BC skill into racial variants. They waited until they were "rebalancing" BC's to make that change, so I'd suspect that OGB will probably be addressed when they rebalance CS's and/or t3s.

FYI: They stated they were going to reduce all T3 links from 5% back down to 2% per level. They were planning to enable the t3's and CS's to give bonuses to multiple racial mindlink types, and

CCP Dev Blog wrote:
As a side note, as we announced a while ago, we are not pleased by having Warfare Links work outside the battlefield zone, and will be investigating options to move them on grid. Command and Tech3 ships providing that much of an advantage should commit to an engagement instead of being safely parked inside a POS bubble.
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
Awesome Alliance
#18 - 2013-08-01 01:39:55 UTC  |  Edited by: IbanezLaney
Yeah I saw that dev blog too.
However:
CCP are a business who want to make $$$$ .
If the remove the boosts which are balanced once everyone has them - they will lose paying accounts.

I can admit that I hated boosts at 1st - but eventually I realized to compete with people using them I should also be playing in a group who could provide/use them or train them myself.

Eve is not about 1v1's. It is about groups of people working together.
If someone can't find a friend to bring more DPS or Jams or provide boosts etc etc - that is their fault.
The person boosting is using 2-3 toons to win the fight - why should anyone else be any different?

This example I am about to provide has happened several times in eve -

Person A - 'FKN BOOSTS - THAT GUY KILLED ME ONLY BECAUSE HE HAS BOOSTS'
Person B - 'LoL OK Boosts are now up guys'
Person A - 'OMG THESE LOKI BOOSTS ARE FKN AWESOME CAN YOU LEAVE THE BOOSTS UP FOR ME LANEY - opps I mean person B'

Peoples problem with boosts isn't the boosts themselves - they are just pissed that they don't have them as well.
When offered, every one who says they don't like boosts will run with them - I have seen this behavior too many times in eve.

In my corp - 2 accounts will likely be unsubbed if they move boosts ongrid. Why would we keep them going if they have focused skill training and will be instantly useless?
The only way I can see people keeping those toons subbed is if they release Command Frigates, Cruisers etc to make it possible to continue using those toons with a decent bonus and at an economical cost.

The real answer if someone doesn't have boosts and want to win more pvp is -
Get in a corp who run them and compete on the same level.

If people really believe CCP's financial guys think 1000's of toons unsubbed overnight is a great idea and that dev blog is a year old with no progress for no reason then fine.
You also have grid foo and other things that will break on grid boosts.

Station games will be the only way people fight if ogb's go. CCP surely know this and don't want to break the great pvp they started when they fixed things like FW which in turn fixed low sec.

I would hope CCP have done the maths and know it's not a financially responsible move. It will even effect the economy of eve as T3 ship, subsystem and command module demand will plummet considerably.

How long ago were we promised walking in stations or many other non existent changes to eve?

Not saying CCP will never do this - just saying it is a poor business decision as an answer to peoples issues with boosts.

The best ship in eve is friendship. Stop following the 1v1 in an MMO dream and find people to fly with.

There are much better solutions to this like forcing people out of NPC corps after a certain time etc and convincing them not to treat eve as a single player game.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#19 - 2013-08-01 03:27:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
IbanezLaney wrote:
Yeah I saw that dev blog too.
However:
CCP are a business who want to make $$$$ .
If the remove the boosts which are balanced once everyone has them - they will lose paying accounts.
...
In my corp - 2 accounts will likely be unsubbed if they move boosts ongrid. Why would we keep them going if they have focused skill training and will be instantly useless?
The only way I can see people keeping those toons subbed is if they release Command Frigates, Cruisers etc to make it possible to continue using those toons with a decent bonus and at an economical cost.

...
If people really believe CCP's financial guys think 1000's of toons unsubbed overnight is a great idea and that dev blog is a year old with no progress for no reason then fine.
You also have grid foo and other things that will break on grid boosts.



CCP cares about more than just $$$!

Do you see gold plated ammo? Do you see SP for Plex? While the game is far from perfectly balanced (actually its purposely not perfectly balanced), they acknowledge when things are too far out of balance, and actively take steps to bring them into balance. Just look at their history: Nerfs to Cyno-Portaled AOE DD's, Nerfs to AOE DD's, Nerfs to XL weapon Tracking, Nerfs to Incursions, Nerf to FW LP payouts, Nerf to speed, Nerf to Moongoo, Nerf to Supercarrier drone bays, nerfs to .... I could give many examples of areas of game play that were broken, and CCP stepped in, correctly so, and modified the game mechanics to bring them back into balance. They've coped with people unsubbing because their Titan changed, or because their Tengu isn't as effective, or because their supercarrier can no longer bbqwtfpwn subcap fleets. If you think the loss of you, your corp mates, and a thousand other booster alts are going to stop CCP from balancing overpowered off grid boosters, your in for a surprise!!!


IbanezLaney wrote:

I can admit that I hated boosts at 1st - but eventually I realized to compete with people using them I should also be playing in a group who could provide/use them or train them myself.

......

Peoples problem with boosts isn't the boosts themselves - they are just pissed that they don't have them as well.
When offered, every one who says they don't like boosts will run with them - I have seen this behavior too many times in eve.



Horseshit!!! You hated boosts at first because you recoginized they were overpowered. You know this now, even as you write 5000 character posts trying to justify them.

IbanezLaney wrote:

The real answer if someone doesn't have boosts and want to win more pvp is -
Get in a corp who run them and compete on the same level.

The best ship in eve is friendship. Stop following the 1v1 in an MMO dream and find people to fly with.


People play the game to win. At the moment, in booster plagued FW space, the only way to truly compete is with boosters. That doesn't mean boosters are good for the game; that doesn't mean boosters are just fine. In fact, it points to the opposite. If boosters were not so goddamn overpowered, your corp mates wouldn't really care if you left your booster alt logged off. People like it when you bring boosts because they know boosts give an unparalleled advantage in PvP. If, right before a gun battle, you gave any soldier the choice of wearing a chain-mail Hauberk, or a Kevlar Vest, of course their going to go with the more effective armor. Yes, this is a cutthroat game where people take every edge they can afford, be it faction ammo, drugs, faction modules, off grid boosters, blingy implants, friends with benefits, and especially fleet boosts.

If you do the math, fleet boosts are simply too powerful. There is NO JUSTIFICATION for the level of benefits they give, especially in conjuction with the laughable risks to a properly setup boosting character. I'm not some small time CEO in a 30 person alliance, I'm the small time CEO in a slightly bigger, somewhat better known alliance. I have a ton of experience in solo and small gang PvP, a lot of experience in nullsec, and a fair amount of experience in FW. I know what I'm talking about, and there are two major problems with off grid boosters:

A.) The boosts: Fleet boosts are ridiculously overpowered:
  • Have a full set of crystals in your head (>>1b isk), and you rep 54% better than the uninplanted character.
  • Take a Strong Blue Pill, and you rep 40% better than the non-drug using character (and risk massive side effects).
  • Have a Mindlinked Tengu Fleet booster, and EVERYONE in your fleet reps 124% more than the non-boosted character.
  • Frankly, the boosts that single ship provides up to 249 others is way over the top. This is a game where you pay 100+m isk for a 5% bonus to a single attribute on a single ship, and your "investment" is at risk of being destroyed; the benefits provided by fleet boosters apply to every ship in fleet, alter many ship attributes, all provided nearly risk free from within the safety of a POS Force Field!

    B.) Lack of a counter:
  • The only way to prevent your opponent from reaping the OP benefits of boosters, is to engage the booster (destroy them or force them to warp).
  • If the booster is on grid, there is a target for you to attack (example: CFC Primarying Command ships in the big 6VDT-H fight).
  • [*] If the booster is off grid, they can be difficult to attack (in a safe spot) to very difficult (inside a gated plex) to impractical (inside a POS).
    Gizznitt Malikite
    Agony Unleashed
    Agony Empire
    #20 - 2013-08-01 03:27:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
    Quote:

    Station games will be the only way people fight if ogb's go. CCP surely know this and don't want to break the great pvp they started when they fixed things like FW which in turn fixed low sec.

    I would hope CCP have done the maths and know it's not a financially responsible move. It will even effect the economy of eve as T3 ship, subsystem and command module demand will plummet considerably.

    How long ago were we promised walking in stations or many other non existent changes to eve?

    Not saying CCP will never do this - just saying it is a poor business decision as an answer to peoples issues with boosts.


    There are much better solutions to this like forcing people out of NPC corps after a certain time etc and convincing them not to treat eve as a single player game.



    ^^^ This little rant above... is essentially you screaming the sky is falling, either because of ignorance, or because your grasping at straws.

    Station Games: I've been playing this game since before T3 Ships existed, and I can tell you there is a risk adverse crowd that has always played station games, and always will. However, thanks to the crimewatch 2.0 changes, logistics inheriting aggression, the inability to eject from a ship when you have a weapons timer... Station games have dwindled drastically. Removing off grid boosts will do NOTHING to change their prevalence.

    The Economy: When CCP teiricided frigates, cruisers, battlecruisers, and battleships, they dramatically altered the mineral requirements for most ships. That had a MUCH larger effect on the economy than your precious t3 subsystem market ever will. They altered the rock composition of nullsec minerals, they took away drone poo, they removed t1 items from the loot table, they buffed mining barges, they revamped ice belts, they introduced infinitely respawning grav sites, etc, etc, etc... The economic effects of nerfing off grid boosters would be akin to the ripple caused by a single drop of water falling on a pond... during a monsoon.

    Again, your fear of OGB'ers going away is legit, because they will. I'll bet you 100m isk, by this date next year, OGB's will have been significantly altered to be much less effective than they are today. They are broken, you know it, I know it, CCP knows it, the CSM knows it, and while they might not have a technical solution ready to release today, winter is coming!
    123Next page