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Bring back the Rifter

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Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#61 - 2013-08-25 23:03:57 UTC
Shield rifter doesn't get a web, whereas a shield Slasher does. That means that, unless incompetent, it will be trivial for the Slasher to disengage. In fact, it will make it trivial for almost any other frigate to disengage. If you want a t1 frigate that's tanky and doesn't need a web, the Punisher is just better.
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#62 - 2013-08-26 02:09:22 UTC
Taoist Dragon wrote:

Well any basic rifter fit will put out about 20% more damage than a slasher and have equal to more tank. The main advantage the slasher has is speed and cap the the prop jamming cap usage bonus.


The rifter doesn't do more damage than a slasher unless you're fitting it for high dps, at which point you're giving up most of it's versatility and are better off with an atron or a merlin, depending on whether you're after speed or tank. And while, yes, a rifter tends to have more tank than a slasher, it also has lower speed, larger sig, and less agility, so it's still generally going to wind up taking more damage.

Quote:

So if a shield rifter comes across a shield neut slasher the worst outcome would be the slasher disengaging and running away. More than likely though would be the slasher dieing and wondering WTF just happened!


You're talking about something like an 800 m/s speed difference once you factor in the fact that you're webbed and he isn't. Your dps isn't so awesome that you're going to kill him before he realizes what's up and burns off unless he's completely out of it. Plus I refer you to my earlier comment about a merlin or atron. Versus an armor slasher, it's even worse, since he's very likely going to have a td that will negate your dps advantage (and you'll still be way slower than him).

The mere ability to counter-fit does not make a ship versatile, and in practice it makes the ship less versatile, since it forces you to pick a very narrow range of targets. The popular breacher and slasher fits have very wide engagement envelopes - you don't need to counter-fit to have a fighting chance vs a competent opponent in a wide variety of ships. To put it another way, having a ship that can be fit to be third best a two of five things simultaneously gives it versatility, since while it isn't the best at anything, it's got options for how to approach a fight. Being second best at only one of five things just means you're stuck with a supbar version of whatever strategy you went with.
Crake Gaterau
Doomheim
#63 - 2013-08-26 05:46:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Crake Gaterau
Concidering where the Rifter is today, I would say it's possible to beat pretty much any other T1 frig using 3 different fits. Some frigs, like the Tristan, has in my limited experience proved to be very difficult but I still think you got a fighting chance. Would this be concidered a very narrow engagement envelope? It's a sincere queston, since I have so little experience in flying other ships it's difficult to know.

When it comes to the shield Rifter, I really don't see much practical use for it in solo pvp. Any competent pilot in a ship with a web can choose weather to disengage or not unless there's some major derpage involved.
Urkhan Law
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2013-08-26 12:48:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Urkhan Law
Despite my lack of experience in flying other races ships, I have my dose of experience in the breacher/slasher also.
I understand the *3 fits* concept Crake (I think I know which 3 fits are), there are lot's of ships that thanks to their weapon system only need with "one fit, one tactic".

Not that anything is wrong with the *3 fits* concept, I think it's an autocannon flaw (it have virtues too):

  • Railguns, keep your oponent far away independent of what he is flying, kite, that's your tactic, at all times.
  • Blasters, get up close independent of what he is flying.
  • Rockets, keep yourself in rocket range, your rockets will always hit for the same amount (depends of the target velocity, signature, etc), you're range free to work on your target. Some targets you'll want to be up close, others you'll want to kite.
  • Autocannons, try to check very fast what he is using, try to get close without messing up transversal in case are rails/lasers (it can be very difficult since rifter is not that fast), pull range if they are blasters (usually easier), hope you have the right ammo loaded (if not, lol, 10 seconds)
  • Not going to add mwd laser/missile kiting ships here, since it's more an on/off thing, or you catch them or you don't, ends up being equal to everybody.

Slasher works because of his speed and the extra mid (TD one trick pony,2xWebs, MSAB, whatever). You can have the tactic/ammo decided before going in, and if you see things going wrong, you usually can disengage. You can't do that in a rifter unless you already know what you need to know, yes there are killboards for that, but in a system with >10 locals when you think that you know who that ship belongs to and how he usually fly it someone already went in for the kill, or he simply gave up on the system and went to another one.

3 fits... I know I know, bring the right tool for the job. And when roaming try to make a good target selection according to the fit you're carrying.

The speed I would like to have in the rifter (or lower mass) was to be able to pull range a little faster from blasters, and to make it easier to go in against rails/lasers (it would not change much against rails since rail ships usually do not fit plates or even have a prop/hull upgrade in a low).

I don't need 3 fits to have confidence in sending my breacher against any t1 frig while roaming (unless is a mwd condor)
I, for sure, I'm wrong in lot's of stuff, feel free to fix it.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#65 - 2013-08-26 13:03:57 UTC
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=20378537
Urkhan Law wrote:
Despite my lack of experience in flying other races ships, I have my dose of experience in the breacher/slasher also.
I understand the *3 fits* concept Crake (I think I know which 3 fits are), there are lot's of ships that thanks to their weapon system only need with "one fit, one tactic".

Not that anything is wrong with the *3 fits* concept, I think it's an autocannon flaw (it have virtues too):

  • Railguns, keep your oponent far away independent of what he is flying, kite, that's your tactic, at all times.
  • Blasters, get up close independent of what he is flying.
  • Rockets, keep yourself in rocket range, your rockets will always hit for the same amount (depends of the target velocity, signature, etc), you're range free to work on your target. Some targets you'll want to be up close, others you'll want to kite.
  • Autocannons, try to check very fast what he is using, try to get close without messing up transversal in case are rails/lasers (it can be very difficult since rifter is not that fast), pull range if they are blasters (usually easier), hope you have the right ammo loaded (if not, lol, 10 seconds)
  • Not going to add mwd laser/missile kiting ships here, since it's more an on/off thing, or you catch them or you don't, ends up being equal to everybody.

Slasher works because of his speed and the extra mid (TD one trick pony,2xWebs, MSAB, whatever). You can have the tactic/ammo decided before going in, and if you see things going wrong, you usually can disengage. You can't do that in a rifter unless you already know what you need to know, yes there are killboards for that, but in a system with >10 locals when you think that you know who that ship belongs to and how he usually fly it someone already went in for the kill, or he simply gave up on the system and went to another one.

3 fits... I know I know, bring the right tool for the job. And when roaming try to make a good target selection according to the fit you're carrying.

The speed I would like to have in the rifter (or lower mass) was to be able to pull range a little faster from blasters, and to make it easier to go in against rails/lasers (it would not change much against rails since rail ships usually do not fit plates or even have a prop/hull upgrade in a low).

I don't need 3 fits to have confidence in sending my breacher against any t1 frig while roaming (unless is a mwd condor)
I, for sure, I'm wrong in lot's of stuff, feel free to fix it.


I'm curious about this. I really like the Rifter and cut my teeth on it (another character).

What should this guy have done differently with fitting? Nano shield Rifter vs rails Incursus:

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=20378537

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Crake Gaterau
Doomheim
#66 - 2013-08-26 13:16:14 UTC
Zappity wrote:
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=20378537[quote=Urkhan Law]

I'm curious about this. I really like the Rifter and cut my teeth on it (another character).

What should this guy have done differently with fitting? Nano shield Rifter vs rails Incursus:

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=20378537


Without him having a web I'm guessing it was very easy for you to keep him at range. Against rails he would have wanted to get in to a close orbit to avoid as much of the damage as possible and make use of his better tracking. Without a web he can't do that.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#67 - 2013-08-26 13:17:55 UTC
Yeah, obvious now that you said it. Thanks.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Crake Gaterau
Doomheim
#68 - 2013-08-26 13:30:05 UTC
I think I see your point Urkhan. What I'm wondering is if the Rifter's narrow engagement window (if that's what it really is) is something that is just a problem with the Rifter, or only becomes one when you compare it to a few ships like the Breacher that has a very wide engagement envelope?

The option of being able to bravely run away if you run in to something nasty, is something I fully support. Big smile
Urkhan Law
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2013-08-26 15:28:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Urkhan Law
Crake Gaterau wrote:
What I'm wondering is if the Rifter's narrow engagement window (if that's what it really is) is something that is just a problem with the Rifter, or only becomes one when you compare it to a few ships like the Breacher that has a very wide engagement envelope?


Can't say, do not have experience flying with other weapon systems beside ac/rockets, I only have assumptions obtained from flying against them,
We have blasters at 0, rails at scram, lasers at scram, rockets what ever, ac's... depend of what your target is packing, or you did the homework right before they land or you're in a world of pain. You'll still be in a world of pain even if you did the correct homework, the tank/dps race will be very difficult to overcome against blasters if you start at 0 and pull range, and the get close, careful with transversal against rails/lasers is not easy to overcome in case you start out of scram.
This without dropping neuts/tds/damps into the equation which in one way or another can affect all tactics.

I don't go against rocket ships with the slasher, not because I use a TD (not using it lately), but because I don't have the dps/tank to win the race. I go against everything with the breacher, even when losing, usually they are good fights.

Fights in a rifter against rocket kessies are good fights, against MSAB 9 cap charges breachers are a big no no at the moment for me, the armor rep buff next patch will improve things a bit (not against the incursus), the increase in speed/decrease in mass would help to get in/out a little faster (we'll still be kited by non plated rails if we have a plate ourselves, just not that easily).

Another options?
I like the falloff bonus but the rifter is the wrong ship for that, usually falloff bonus are in fast/low tank ships for a reason. 433 slasher with a falloff bonus instead of tracking would be great, but that ship is called atron, 442 tracking/damage rifter (current speed/mass) would be great but that's what slasher got. And tbh, despite being limited (or versatile if you prefer - half full or half empty), I like the 433 rifter.

Yep... I would go with speed increase/mass decrease and see what happens.
Looks like a small buff that will not change much (or anything at all) but that could help things a little.
Taoist Dragon
School of Applied Knowledge
#70 - 2013-08-26 21:20:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Taoist Dragon
I just LOL at all the people who really think that this game is ship v ship.....it is player v player.

I'll just leave that there for a second to see if an epiphany will hit you while you think about it.


Now all this talk about competant pilots and whatnot is really nice and treehuggy but guess what the punisher has been used since day one as a good brawler in frigate fights and it only has 2 mid slots so the arguement about 'needing' a web have been proved wrong with over a decade of people doing without.

Or.......wait for it......

do without a scram and put a web on the bloody thing Shocked WOW! you now have range control again. Who cares if you can't scram them. Like I mentioned before this is player v player and the vast majority of players just don't realise that they are not scrammed in a frig fight. I know it's almost unthink able isn't it Roll

and just for reference purposes just cos I'm in one of those moods. I previously mentioned that a rifter in a 'similar' fit to a slasher will have more damage and tank than the slasher. Here is an example.

Shield rifter
3x 150 AC II (RF PP)
1 Rocket II (CN Inferno)

1mn AB II
Faint scram or web!!?!?!?
MSE II

Micro Aux Power I
2x Gyro II

2 x Processor Overclock
Project ambit

Stats all lvl V

EHP: 3857
DPS: 160
Speed: 1160

Shield slasher
3x 150 AC II (RF PP)
1 small neut

1mn AB II
Faint scram
Web
MSE II

Micro Aux Power I
1 Gyro II

Project Burst
2x Project Ambit

Stats

EHP: 3344 (513 less)
DPS: 130 (30 less or roughly 23% more dps for the rifter)
Speed: 1401 (+241)

So when answering the question: Which is better with a similar fit, rifter or slasher?

Well in this case the rifter has substantially more dps and better tank. The best case for these two would the slasher running away.

But thats all EFT warrioring and is complete utter bullshite when two players actually meet in space.

Really all the people arguing (including me) need to stop thinking in pure numbers in eft and think about what your opponent is doing rather than what eft say he can do.

Have fun out there kiddies and lighten up, it's a game don't take it too seriously.

tl;dr I'm messing with you now cos I'm bored of these stoopid arguements, feel free to chat among yourselves P

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Thexx Littlechurch
Black Whole Industries
#71 - 2013-08-26 23:18:16 UTC
For what its worth coming from me, I know of OP through his EVE and Youtube exploits. He really, really, knows what hes talking about.

Thanks for teaching me how to fit/fly a frigate properly Randy Wray!

Seriously, thank you!
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#72 - 2013-08-27 00:41:00 UTC
Rifter does need a buff.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Anabaric
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#73 - 2013-08-29 10:21:52 UTC
Crake Gaterau wrote:
Concidering where the Rifter is today, I would say it's possible to beat pretty much any other T1 frig using 3 different fits.


Please do share.

Community Manager www.Battleclinic.com @battleclinic Loadouts + Killboards + Forums Twitter @anabaric_eve www.the-bastards.net Recruitment: OPEN
Crake Gaterau
Doomheim
#74 - 2013-08-30 18:03:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Crake Gaterau
I've had some luck with a brawler fit, an artillery fit and a variation of the cookie that adds a bit more range. I'm sure someone with better fitting skillz and piloting could do better.

I really can't say based on my own experience if the Rifter is balanced or not since I have no frame of reference in terms of flying other ships or the Rifter before the other hulls were buffed. All I know is that it's possible to get kills in it against a variety of hulls piloted at times by people more experienced than myself. But it is true what Urkhan says. It probably takes more prep work in a Rifter to win those good fights than in most other ships.
Urkhan Law
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2013-09-05 11:56:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Urkhan Law
It’s long, read at your own peril (TLDR version at the end).

Yesterday had an interesting fight against a tristan.
I rarely win against tristans, and since in the systems I usually roam there are lots of neut tristans I usually don’t engage them unless I can dictate the rules of the engagement (waiting for them at a plex instead of going for them).

I don’t know what buffs the other pilot had, if he had them, or his fit. I just can try to explain how the fight went on. I started the fight at 7.5k, out of neut range, this was not a plated rifter, there was no speed enhancement mods or plates/trimarks, and I believe the tristan had neither also. So press keep at range, ab, guns and rep pre-overheated as usual, tristan goes into approach mode, and everything is fine at the start. I do damage, his drones do their work, etc, rifter was faster at this point, then when the rifter reached his ‘keep at range’ distance, he just turned back a little and then turned back away trying to get out again. Tristan was at 6k now, neuting, and gaining the range I will not get back again since he was in full acceleration mode and I wasn’t there yet.

I lose really a lot of fights, I engage things I shouldn’t, I’m outplayed most of the time, I make the wrong decisions all the time, I consider myself a ‘pvp noob in progress’.
I could have started the fight at 20k and waited for the tristan to send his drones at me, use the web, kill them, and then go to 9 to try to kill the tristan when the number of drones was acceptable (the tristan could always pull off his drones or get out since he was out of scram range).
I could have started the fight at 9k instead of 7.5k, but the damage barrage produces at that range is inferior to the damage 5 warriors/hobgoblins can do.
instead of keeping range at 7.5k I could put keep at range at 10000k and adjust the speed dial manually to stay in the 7.5 range, that way the ship would not turn around by itself unless I told it to do it but if the other pilot sling shot me I would get back to square 1.
Or I could have just bailed when I saw the tristan coming.
I could had made lot’s of things different, this fight was a very good fight, and it got me thinking (yes it happens), there is a thing that fights against the rifter itself all the time, mass.

Speed ships (minmatar), they have a speed advantage, and then they have mass to slow them down. Example: Breacher vs Tristan speed wise, breacher is faster without mods, put a mwd on each ship, max level skills, and Tristan now have the same speed as breacher. Put the speed enhancement mods you want on both ships with the mwd, Tristan will continue to have the same speed as breacher. The speed advantage on the ship initial stats doesn’t exist anymore.

TLDR
Minmatar ships have more base speed, this speed advantage is negated by mass.

There are a few hulls in all races with speed in mind despite base speed, is not only the stabber and the vagabond, and despite the usual homogenization concerns that’s good since speed is valuable and provides a gaming experience all races should have access to in one ship or another, but the speed race is something that really doesn’t exist anymore.

I remember a heavy nerf to the mass of minmatar ships a few years ago (nano age? 2009? 2010?). Please balancing team, recheck mass in Minmatar (and other races) ships, I don’t think the current values/direction make sense anymore. I understand that Minmatar ships can’t really be 1st in speed and 1st in mass, but 1st in speed and last or close to last in mass?
The base speed advantage is being negated completely, only with the usual propulsion mod in some cases.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#76 - 2013-09-05 15:37:26 UTC
Urkhan Law wrote:
It’s long, read at your own peril (TLDR version at the end).

Yesterday had an interesting fight against a tristan.
I rarely win against tristans, and since in the systems I usually roam there are lots of neut tristans I usually don’t engage them unless I can dictate the rules of the engagement (waiting for them at a plex instead of going for them).

I don’t know what buffs the other pilot had, if he had them, or his fit. I just can try to explain how the fight went on. I started the fight at 7.5k, out of neut range, this was not a plated rifter, there was no speed enhancement mods or plates/trimarks, and I believe the tristan had neither also. So press keep at range, ab, guns and rep pre-overheated as usual, tristan goes into approach mode, and everything is fine at the start. I do damage, his drones do their work, etc, rifter was faster at this point, then when the rifter reached his ‘keep at range’ distance, he just turned back a little and then turned back away trying to get out again. Tristan was at 6k now, neuting, and gaining the range I will not get back again since he was in full acceleration mode and I wasn’t there yet.

I lose really a lot of fights, I engage things I shouldn’t, I’m outplayed most of the time, I make the wrong decisions all the time, I consider myself a ‘pvp noob in progress’.
I could have started the fight at 20k and waited for the tristan to send his drones at me, use the web, kill them, and then go to 9 to try to kill the tristan when the number of drones was acceptable (the tristan could always pull off his drones or get out since he was out of scram range).
I could have started the fight at 9k instead of 7.5k, but the damage barrage produces at that range is inferior to the damage 5 warriors/hobgoblins can do.
instead of keeping range at 7.5k I could put keep at range at 10000k and adjust the speed dial manually to stay in the 7.5 range, that way the ship would not turn around by itself unless I told it to do it but if the other pilot sling shot me I would get back to square 1.
Or I could have just bailed when I saw the tristan coming.
I could had made lot’s of things different, this fight was a very good fight, and it got me thinking (yes it happens), there is a thing that fights against the rifter itself all the time, mass.

Speed ships (minmatar), they have a speed advantage, and then they have mass to slow them down. Example: Breacher vs Tristan speed wise, breacher is faster without mods, put a mwd on each ship, max level skills, and Tristan now have the same speed as breacher. Put the speed enhancement mods you want on both ships with the mwd, Tristan will continue to have the same speed as breacher. The speed advantage on the ship initial stats doesn’t exist anymore.

TLDR
Minmatar ships have more base speed, this speed advantage is negated by mass.

There are a few hulls in all races with speed in mind despite base speed, is not only the stabber and the vagabond, and despite the usual homogenization concerns that’s good since speed is valuable and provides a gaming experience all races should have access to in one ship or another, but the speed race is something that really doesn’t exist anymore.

I remember a heavy nerf to the mass of minmatar ships a few years ago (nano age? 2009? 2010?). Please balancing team, recheck mass in Minmatar (and other races) ships, I don’t think the current values/direction make sense anymore. I understand that Minmatar ships can’t really be 1st in speed and 1st in mass, but 1st in speed and last or close to last in mass?
The base speed advantage is being negated completely, only with the usual propulsion mod in some cases.


Mass doesn't modify speed. It modifies inertia, changing the time it takes to reach your maximum speed (but not actually making a difference to what that is).

I don't understand what you mean about a prop mod negating a speed advantage. A hull's speed is the base value which all subsequent multipliers affect (ie prop mods, nanos or overdrives, snakes etc). Rifter and Breacher with identical prop mods will not have the same speed.

And you should have heated your prop mod for one cycle.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Urkhan Law
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2013-09-05 17:10:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Urkhan Law
Zappity wrote:

Mass doesn't modify speed. (...)
I don't understand what you mean about a prop mod negating a speed advantage. (...)
And you should have heated your prop mod for one cycle.


It seems you only read the TLDR version :)
Prop mod was overheated.
Mass modifies speed when prop mods are involved, afterburner, microwarpdrive, which means ALL the time.
In my example, BREACHER have a higher base speed than a TRISTAN, fit a MWD to both, and final speed will be the same thanks to the differences in mass.

The base speed difference when comparing Minmatar frigates with other races frigates does not really exist (or exists and is very small) when you add an AB or a MWD, which is all the time.