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Tidi is gamebreaking for the smaller side

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#81 - 2013-07-30 20:09:48 UTC
Trin Javidan wrote:
This is why giving giving unlimeted amounts of isk to the biggest coalitions has been a bad thing, in the end of the day eve is still a numbers and isk game, have both and you win.... rinse and repeat... ruining the politic's landscape and thus the fun for years to come.... CCP you had been warned.


Yeah, because BoB wasn't totally defeated by an upstart coalition with more guts than them, and almost no other advantage... (despite the wide rumor that BoB had devhaxx)

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#82 - 2013-07-30 20:09:48 UTC
Sarah McKnobbo wrote:
Kitty Baugh wrote:
Sarah McKnobbo wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
If I can hear someone saying they are pressing a button over comms and 20 minutes later I can see the action start to happen... that's TiDi.

It's not enough. It's not a fix. It's the best currently available answer.


FTFY

TiDi isn't lag. Lag suggests the client and server are out of sync. This doesnt happen with TiDi.

This doesnt happen with Tidi?

No. The client and server are still in sync with TiDi, it may not keep up with your inputs but it is still in-sync. Its intentional, lag isn't. Yes there's a delay but unfortunately thats unavoidable.



You do realize that lag is a full cycle from client to server to client again right?

TiDi intentionally disrupts that by creating lag to prevent a disconnect.


People aren't realizing that TiDi prevents disconnects. We aren't talking about disconnects, we are talking about lag.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2013-07-30 20:12:13 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:



You do realize that lag is a full cycle from client to server to client again right?

TiDi intentionally disrupts that by creating lag to prevent a disconnect.


People aren't realizing that TiDi prevents disconnects. We aren't talking about disconnects, we are talking about lag.


Not a disruption, its a chance of rate, no more no less. The effect is that the node has 10 times as long to process calls and queries.

Granted we can still lag it after all of that, but its MUCH more reliable than pre-TiDi times.
Sirane Elrek
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2013-07-30 20:18:46 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Not a disruption, its a chance of rate, no more no less. The effect is that the node has 10 times as long to process calls and queries.

Granted we can still lag it after all of that, but its MUCH more reliable than pre-TiDi times.

We can call it lag all day long, but the fact is, when a node is just TiDi'ed, it will still process all entered commands in a timely fashion. Unlike lag, in which it doesn't and defers processing to a far later point in time.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2013-07-30 20:19:36 UTC
Sirane Elrek wrote:
. Unlike lag, in which it doesn't and defers processing to a far later point in time.



You hoped anyway.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#86 - 2013-07-30 20:19:41 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:



You do realize that lag is a full cycle from client to server to client again right?

TiDi intentionally disrupts that by creating lag to prevent a disconnect.


People aren't realizing that TiDi prevents disconnects. We aren't talking about disconnects, we are talking about lag.


Not a disruption, its a chance of rate, no more no less. The effect is that the node has 10 times as long to process calls and queries.

Granted we can still lag it after all of that, but its MUCH more reliable than pre-TiDi times.



But the point is the fanbois are insisting it's not lag, when it is.

It's created intentionally to prevent disconnects. The effect is lag. It's not a hot poker.

It's just ugly.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#87 - 2013-07-30 20:21:59 UTC
Sirane Elrek wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Not a disruption, its a chance of rate, no more no less. The effect is that the node has 10 times as long to process calls and queries.

Granted we can still lag it after all of that, but its MUCH more reliable than pre-TiDi times.

We can call it lag all day long, but the fact is, when a node is just TiDi'ed, it will still process all entered commands in a timely fashion. Unlike lag, in which it doesn't and defers processing to a far later point in time.



Lag is the time from point a to point b to point a again.

The why and whatfors do not impact the fact it happens.

Sugar coating **** doesn't change what it is, only how it tastes before you start chewing.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2013-07-30 20:27:07 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:



You do realize that lag is a full cycle from client to server to client again right?

TiDi intentionally disrupts that by creating lag to prevent a disconnect.


People aren't realizing that TiDi prevents disconnects. We aren't talking about disconnects, we are talking about lag.


Not a disruption, its a chance of rate, no more no less. The effect is that the node has 10 times as long to process calls and queries.

Granted we can still lag it after all of that, but its MUCH more reliable than pre-TiDi times.



But the point is the fanbois are insisting it's not lag, when it is.

It's created intentionally to prevent disconnects. The effect is lag. It's not a hot poker.

It's just ugly.


You are a seriously dense monkey dude. For real.

First, the cycle from client server communication is called latency
Second lag is a result of a processor que times. If the queue processing exceeds the the client update rate, you have lag.
Third , I'm a hardware engineer by trade, what CCP has done with server loads is on par with amazon's scalable cloud architecture.

That being said I don't think anyone has a REAL TIME (Amazon's services aren't real time) dynamic load sharing architecutre working, and if they do they aren't marketing it for anything, its in a datacenter for a multi-billion dollar a year bank and they don't want ANYONE else seeing it.

Suffice it to say its extraordinarily difficult to break threads and reassign them to different logical procs in a real time environment, my company has been working at it to varying degrees for the better part of ten years.
Sarah McKnobbo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2013-07-30 20:29:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarah McKnobbo
Murk Paradox wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:



You do realize that lag is a full cycle from client to server to client again right?

TiDi intentionally disrupts that by creating lag to prevent a disconnect.


People aren't realizing that TiDi prevents disconnects. We aren't talking about disconnects, we are talking about lag.


Not a disruption, its a chance of rate, no more no less. The effect is that the node has 10 times as long to process calls and queries.

Granted we can still lag it after all of that, but its MUCH more reliable than pre-TiDi times.



But the point is the fanbois are insisting it's not lag, when it is.

It's created intentionally to prevent disconnects. The effect is lag. It's not a hot poker.

It's just ugly.


No fanboiing, its just TiDi and lag are different things. They both cause delays but in different ways for different reasons. TiDi keeps inputs in order, lag doesn't.

In the end its a bit of a moot point, its unavoidable for now so what do you expect CCP to do about it?
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#90 - 2013-07-30 20:30:59 UTC
/me feels awfully reminded how people argued that EVE is just as instanced as other MMOs ...

I found another video of how bad lag was. Just watch the client freeze and desync. Love how the client switches 10 times between the Rokh and the loading window, after the ship is long dead.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Sirane Elrek
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2013-07-30 20:32:37 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Lag is the time from point a to point b to point a again.

Your definition of lag is utterly useless. In fact that definition is so terrible, that I can claim removing a fleet booster creates lag. How? Well point A is "Your remote rep is inactive", point B is "Your remote rep is active". If you have a fleet booster with a rapid repair link, your reps cycle faster than without, so you can go A to B to A in a shorter time than when he dies.
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#92 - 2013-07-30 20:34:34 UTC
Sarah McKnobbo wrote:
... so what do you expect CCP to do about it?


Mmh, how about capping each solar system in 0.0 to 200 players. 100 vs 100 makes for nice fleet fights too Blink ... and too bad if you jump into a system with 199 enemies inside Twisted.

I still can't believe they managed to squeeze 4000 players into a fight and not crash.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#93 - 2013-07-30 20:42:23 UTC
Sirane Elrek wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Not a disruption, its a chance of rate, no more no less. The effect is that the node has 10 times as long to process calls and queries.

Granted we can still lag it after all of that, but its MUCH more reliable than pre-TiDi times.

We can call it lag all day long, but the fact is, when a node is just TiDi'ed, it will still process all entered commands in a timely fashion. Unlike lag, in which it doesn't and defers processing to a far later point in time.

Time is Dilated.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Whitehound
#94 - 2013-07-30 20:51:41 UTC
There is a trick how one can turn TiDi off and have the game respond like in the old times...

...pull the plug of your network.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Sl33py Loco
La Familia del Norte
#95 - 2013-07-30 20:59:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Sl33py Loco
tldr

"We had a for sure Titan kill the CFC instantly responded with overwhelming force and dunked the attacking fleet that now blames tidi for them missing said Titan kill."

/thread
Mr R4nd0m
Doomheim
#96 - 2013-07-30 21:06:45 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Sirane Elrek wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Not a disruption, its a chance of rate, no more no less. The effect is that the node has 10 times as long to process calls and queries.

Granted we can still lag it after all of that, but its MUCH more reliable than pre-TiDi times.

We can call it lag all day long, but the fact is, when a node is just TiDi'ed, it will still process all entered commands in a timely fashion. Unlike lag, in which it doesn't and defers processing to a far later point in time.

Time is Dilated.


oh god its lag no matter how you try spin it lol...

far later point in time? err thats what TiDi does lol. You activate a mod, 30 mins later it actions...duh
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2013-07-30 21:21:46 UTC
Mr R4nd0m wrote:


far later point in time? err thats what TiDi does lol. You activate a mod, 30 mins later it actions...duh



Quite spamming the button like a methed out hamster and it usually goes in a relatively predictable fashion.

Fighting with 4000 in a system (or even 1500 unreinforced) yeah, you are getting TiDi and lag.......it not prefect but its better than the alternatives.

....and I've NEVER seen a 30 minute mod activation, like 10-15 seconds maybe, certainly nothing over a minute.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#98 - 2013-07-30 21:21:58 UTC
Onictus wrote:


You are a seriously dense monkey dude. For real.

First, the cycle from client server communication is called latency
Second lag is a result of a processor que times. If the queue processing exceeds the the client update rate, you have lag.
Third , I'm a hardware engineer by trade, what CCP has done with server loads is on par with amazon's scalable cloud architecture.

That being said I don't think anyone has a REAL TIME (Amazon's services aren't real time) dynamic load sharing architecutre working, and if they do they aren't marketing it for anything, its in a datacenter for a multi-billion dollar a year bank and they don't want ANYONE else seeing it.

Suffice it to say its extraordinarily difficult to break threads and reassign them to different logical procs in a real time environment, my company has been working at it to varying degrees for the better part of ten years.


Latency is the time, lag is the result. Has nothing to do with a processor. Lag has to do with the connection you have to a host, the latency is the rate of time used to measure lag. If you are a hardware engineer, you should know this since you would be dealing with pings and packets for connectivity topologies.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2013-07-30 21:24:20 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:


Latency is the time, lag is the result.



The two have nothing to do with each other. One is a consequence of network communication, and the other is releated to processing resources.

Try to focus.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#100 - 2013-07-30 21:26:14 UTC
Sirane Elrek wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Lag is the time from point a to point b to point a again.

Your definition of lag is utterly useless. In fact that definition is so terrible, that I can claim removing a fleet booster creates lag. How? Well point A is "Your remote rep is inactive", point B is "Your remote rep is active". If you have a fleet booster with a rapid repair link, your reps cycle faster than without, so you can go A to B to A in a shorter time than when he dies.



That makes no sense. Stop.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.