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Lag, TiDi, 6-VT and you...

First post
Author
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#381 - 2013-08-09 17:22:15 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

You'll of course never convince a "pie in the sky" thinker that what they want to happen will not happen. CCP isn't going to devote it's every resource to improving a system that already works well and is mainly focused on rare events in a part of EVE space that only holds 11% of the games active characters ie null sec. Sure they "could", but who would do that?

what is strange that THIS GAME heavily uses these "little 11% active characters" and battles they make in every advertisement.
But it's not that all this BBC news, advertisements and all this stuff is important, yea? Lol

I remember last event about low-sec, Nyx and thousand frigates. I was killed there, client crashed and I was not able to return to the system. So i can't say "system works well". Yea, last 0.0 battle shown that system can hold more people (4000?) so i see progress. However i don't agree with your "system works well" and "nothing to do". Either Eve Online is a game of big alliances/big battles and it handles such numbers well or not.


and that means that you lack context like Feyd did. When I went to null for the 1st time in 2008, a 600 character fleet engagement in Outer Ring caused most of us to black screen and disconnect. A fight later on up north that same week that I wasn't in and that wasn't much bigger caused CCP to have to reboot EVE.

What you did in low sec this year would not have been POSSIBLE in 2008.

As for CCP's advertising, how is that different from what every other advertiser does? Did you ever see a real life McDonald's hamburger that look anything like the picture on TV?

Yes, in context, the system not only works well, it's awesome. You could not get back in to that low sec fight, a couple years earlier that low sec fight wouldn't have happened at all.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#382 - 2013-08-09 17:26:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:
Again you are describing a Stokholm-syndrome type rationalization that relies on 'context'. i.e. 'Yeah large fleet fights suck, and yeah they shift into turn-based play instead of realtime, and the high magnitude of suck isn't mentioned in the marketing or tech blogs or media...BUT, at least the fight 'happened'!'


Interesting, every independent article on the subject I've ever seen has described TIDI in detail... and applauded CCP for their ingenuity for such an elegant pressure valve in over populated situations.

If you had actually read anything about TIDI you would be aware of this.

Perhaps this is yet another reason people are telling you that you are uninformed.


+1

Sometimes "discussions" here are complex and involve lots of variables and motivations.

This isn't one of them.

This discussion boils down to "cup half empty" people with unrealistic expectations vs "cup half full" people who understand that "man, this is great, 2 years of slow motion something is much better than the previous 8 years of black screened nothing".

I honestly tend to despise the "half empty" people, modern life (including EVE, TiDi and all) is awesome.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#383 - 2013-08-09 17:46:34 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Again you are describing a Stokholm-syndrome type rationalization that relies on 'context'.
No, what he's describing is having a realistic outlook, which is neither a rationalisation, nor Stockholm syndrome. Having an unrealistic outlook is not the same as being objective observer, but rather being wilfully ignorant about what is actually going on.

Quote:
I disagree that problem is unsolvable
…and that is probably a large part of why people are calling you uninformed. It is unsolvable due to human nature. There has been exactly one constant throughout the ten years of EVE (and four decades of multiplayer gaming): if the system can handle N players, N+1 will show up because it's just better (for them) that way.

What TiDi does is ensure that the system can actually handle this. It does not turn huge fleet fights into turn-based gameplay, and it does not cast any kind of negative shadow on the “single universe” design concept. All it does is turn unprecedented large-scale fights into slow-motion fights to keep the game going. Objectively, this is awesome. Subjectively, some people might not like it, but that's their problem and they're free to stay away.



That human nature the dev team not wanting to change the foundation of their game. You are right that it is not possible under current incarnations of the current game, but the human nature of laziness trumps the technological advances.... unless you want to insist that a single thread setup is more ideal than a multi... you can decide that one.

The problem I think that people argue about is you have a stadium advertising that they can seat "everyone" for a concert and so "everyone" lines up, buys a ticket, but can't sit down because of the limited seating.

So now you have "everyone" inside, jam packed, can't move but an inch at a time, and you have the people who are sitting up front thinking everything is a-ok because "everyone" got inside, even though they can't sit down and be comfortable which is what the stadium is designed to do.

Regardless of if TiDi is good or better or well, it still is not ideal (which noone has yet to confirm it is yet) but since it's a lesser of 2 evils, people think it's a slice of heaven. Maybe in comparison, but not by definition.

You have a game thats advertised as hosting these huge fights, CCP scrambling to make it happen with proper planning needed etc (sandbox ftw? /sarcasm) you have other systems not related to the fight be effected, and the crowning glory is that it was "possible".

TiDi is server triage, not a function you want to depend on.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#384 - 2013-08-09 17:48:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Jenn aSide wrote:
[
...
This discussion boils down to "cup half empty" people with unrealistic expectations vs "cup half full" people who understand that "man, this is great, 2 years of slow motion something is much better than the previous 8 years of black screened nothing".

I honestly tend to despise the "half empty" people, modern life (including EVE, TiDi and all) is awesome.

And that is why McDonalds exists for you, and high end steak restaurants exist for me. Problem is that the McDonalds crowd is hailing the 6VDT battle as filet-mignon, when it was a burger with a side of cold TiDi fries...fries you could only pop in your mouth at a rate of 1 every 45 minutes...

..those fries were SuperSIzed (yay!), but you could still only eat them one every 45 minutes....

Yes, gourmet dining at its finest, and worthy of media accolades.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#385 - 2013-08-09 17:49:30 UTC
What I don't get is how people use the argument "once this cap is met they will push this cap" when you advertise a single shard server, you should assume the worst by having everyone in a single system at once.

If that cannot be met, you will always find inherent design flaws.

200, 2000, or twenty thousand people... if you want to advertise it's possible, then it should be possible... or you need to scrub the project and start over.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#386 - 2013-08-09 17:51:49 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
[
...
This discussion boils down to "cup half empty" people with unrealistic expectations vs "cup half full" people who understand that "man, this is great, 2 years of slow motion something is much better than the previous 8 years of black screened nothing".

I honestly tend to despise the "half empty" people, modern life (including EVE, TiDi and all) is awesome.

And that is why McDonalds exists for you, and high end steak restaurants exist for me. Problem is that the McDonalds crowd is hailing the 6VDT battle as filet-mignon, when it was a burger with a side of cold TiDi fries...



LOL, reminds me of Crystal/White Castle burgers. No one ever complains about them because you know exactly wtf you are getting into.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#387 - 2013-08-09 18:23:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Murk Paradox wrote:
That human nature the dev team not wanting to change the foundation of their game.
Of course not. Why should they? All they can do (and are doing) is enable and support that nature.

Quote:
The problem I think that people argue about is you have a stadium advertising that they can seat "everyone" for a concert and so "everyone" lines up, buys a ticket, but can't sit down because of the limited seating.

So now you have "everyone" inside, jam packed, can't move but an inch at a time, and you have the people who are sitting up front thinking everything is a-ok because "everyone" got inside, even though they can't sit down and be comfortable which is what the stadium is designed to do.
No, it really isn't. It's merely designed to hold as many people as it can. People are complaining that they are confusing “holding as many as it can” with “it holds everyone”, in spite of the fact that nothing of the kind has ever been claimed. Everyone else is marvelling at how “as many as it can” keeps increasing and offering bigger and bigger crowds.

Quote:
Regardless of if TiDi is good or better or well, it still is not ideal (which noone has yet to confirm it is yet) but since it's a lesser of 2 evils, people think it's a slice of heaven.
TiDi is ideal for what it's supposed to do: degrade the system gracefully when overloaded, to the point where the game keeps running rather than lagging out and crashing. It's not the lesser of two evils, but rather the good option out of one good and several bad ones.

Meanwhile, we have a game that's advertised as hosting huge fights, and which allows us to have them. Occasionally, these huge fights expand into gignormous fights, which push the envelope of what even this much-improved system can handle. Just because it struggles with those fights (a fact that is amply highlighted in the reporting) doesn't mean that the huge ones aren't happening, and that they can happen without any planning being needed.

Basically, it's all a ridiculous strawman based on a reverse black-swan/false generalisation fallacy, and the only thing that's more silly and ignorant than that is the nonsensical claim that TiDi somehow make the game turn-based or that it creates lag, when it actually does the exact opposite.

Quote:
What I don't get is how people use the argument "once this cap is met they will push this cap" when you advertise a single shard server, you should assume the worst by having everyone in a single system at once.
They are assuming the worst. That's why they have given us TiDi. And no, “single shard server” does not mean that everyone will pile into a single system at once, nor does it in any way imply that they can. It just means that once it's full, there's no more room. No other shards to go to. No instances to duplicate the same space.

People are using that argument because it's true, and because it trivially blows the “just build it bigger” argument for pointlessly wasting resources out of the water.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#388 - 2013-08-09 18:34:51 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
[
...
This discussion boils down to "cup half empty" people with unrealistic expectations vs "cup half full" people who understand that "man, this is great, 2 years of slow motion something is much better than the previous 8 years of black screened nothing".

I honestly tend to despise the "half empty" people, modern life (including EVE, TiDi and all) is awesome.

And that is why McDonalds exists for you, and high end steak restaurants exist for me. Problem is that the McDonalds crowd is hailing the 6VDT battle as filet-mignon, when it was a burger with a side of cold TiDi fries...fries you could only pop in your mouth at a rate of 1 every 45 minutes...

..those fries were SuperSIzed (yay!), but you could still only eat them one every 45 minutes....

Yes, gourmet dining at its finest, and worthy of media accolades.


Never thought I'd meet someone more spoiled than my neighbor's 17 year old daughter (who threw a tantrum last week that ended up with other neighbors calling police...because she was upset at the color of the brand new off the show room floor car her dad bought here as a birthday present....)....


...... but I think i just did.....
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#389 - 2013-08-09 18:35:44 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


I remember last event about low-sec, Nyx and thousand frigates. I was killed there, client crashed and I was not able to return to the system. So i can't say "system works well". Yea, last 0.0 battle shown that system can hold more people (4000?) so i see progress. However i don't agree with your "system works well" and "nothing to do". Either Eve Online is a game of big alliances/big battles and it handles such numbers well or not.


If the server keeps running with 4000 characters in a one system free-for-all that is better than any (graphically rendered) MMO that I have ever played or heard of.

.....and I have been playing MMOs since UO.

That being said whether or not preformance takes a hit or not, there are moments like jumping into 3WE- knowing there were four maxed out fleets on field three of them were hostile with NO frigging cap that keep me coming back.

That **** is exciting.

In fact in Z9PP watching local double in about a minute and a half when we were sitting there 2000 deep to start with was pretty damn exciting.....if a bit slow.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#390 - 2013-08-09 18:42:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Tippia wrote:
People are complaining that they are confusing “holding as many as it can” with “it holds everyone”, in spite of the fact that nothing of the kind has ever been claimed.


But I'm sure I once saw a commercial that said "fight everyone on Earth, right now" lol.

That's the big thing, BIG fights happen all the time, but even still there is a limit and that limit keeps growing. We'd still be in 2010 without TiDi, that alone makes TiDi a good thing.

Quote:

Everyone else is marvelling at how “as many as it can” keeps increasing and offering bigger and bigger crowds.


I'm one of those Marvellers.

I am somewhat appalled and offended on behalf of ccp that someone is actually suggesting that they are LAZY for providing us a situation that no other game can claim simply because the situation isn't perfect. Are these people crazy? Seriously. \

Someone show me ONE other game like EVE that can put 4000 people in the exact same virtual space and do anything at all.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#391 - 2013-08-09 18:50:50 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
[
...
This discussion boils down to "cup half empty" people with unrealistic expectations vs "cup half full" people who understand that "man, this is great, 2 years of slow motion something is much better than the previous 8 years of black screened nothing".

I honestly tend to despise the "half empty" people, modern life (including EVE, TiDi and all) is awesome.

And that is why McDonalds exists for you, and high end steak restaurants exist for me. Problem is that the McDonalds crowd is hailing the 6VDT battle as filet-mignon, when it was a burger with a side of cold TiDi fries...fries you could only pop in your mouth at a rate of 1 every 45 minutes...

..those fries were SuperSIzed (yay!), but you could still only eat them one every 45 minutes....

Yes, gourmet dining at its finest, and worthy of media accolades.


Never thought I'd meet someone more spoiled than my neighbor's 17 year old daughter (who threw a tantrum last week that ended up with other neighbors calling police...because she was upset at the color of the brand new off the show room floor car her dad bought here as a birthday present....)....


...... but I think i just did.....

The next time the CFC shows up with 2400 people and more in reserve, you should just not jump in. Anyone wanting to contest timers against the CFC would do well to remember this.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#392 - 2013-08-09 20:31:11 UTC
Tippia wrote:
[No, it really isn't. It's merely designed to hold as many people as it can. People are complaining that they are confusing “holding as many as it can” with “it holds everyone”, in spite of the fact that nothing of the kind has ever been claimed. Everyone else is marvelling at how “as many as it can” keeps increasing and offering bigger and bigger crowds.




CCP is telling the public that it can hold everyone. They are quite literally saying that's what their sandbox is designed for. That's where the complaint comes from. CCP isn't saying "Log in now to maybe be able to enter a large fight!" contrary to what you want to insinuate. It's not a matter of you having to lift the gauntlet of challenge, unless you are directly responsible. If you are, get back to work.

Not to mention having to move the biggest node usually reserved for their largest trade hub in game to accomodate that "capacity of seated visitors" is more than enough to show where the improvement needs to lie.

This is in regards to you being right about TiDi being "good" and "working as intended" because I'm pretty sure server capacity is another bottleneck that CCP wants to fix.

I don't think any game WANTS a bottleneck that advertises a lack of rules, and it would be silly to pretend otherwise.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#393 - 2013-08-09 20:34:23 UTC
Tippia wrote:
They are assuming the worst. That's why they have given us TiDi. And no, “single shard server” does not mean that everyone will pile into a single system at once, nor does it in any way imply that they can. It just means that once it's full, there's no more room. No other shards to go to. No instances to duplicate the same space.

People are using that argument because it's true, and because it trivially blows the “just build it bigger” argument for pointlessly wasting resources out of the water.


That's **** poor planning to say everyone is one big single place then not allow the population to live there. The next thing would encourage microtransactions to be allowed to dock in certain stations as once people keep pushing the limits (jita?) you will simply have to find a way to accomodate the influx of pilots in one system before your entire system becomes flawed to the point of destruction.

Why bother having a trade hub that only a portion of people can trade from?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#394 - 2013-08-09 20:38:07 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
That human nature the dev team not wanting to change the foundation of their game.
Of course not. Why should they? All they can do (and are doing) is enable and support that nature.




Because they are starting to reach the end of their promise and soon cannot deliver as they said they could. Atleast you admitted to their nature being laziness (since that was what I originally said in the comment you quote) about choosing to stay single shard instead of working to revamp their entire platform. I'd rather have it unknown though but meh.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#395 - 2013-08-09 20:44:10 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Tippia wrote:
People are complaining that they are confusing “holding as many as it can” with “it holds everyone”, in spite of the fact that nothing of the kind has ever been claimed.


But I'm sure I once saw a commercial that said "fight everyone on Earth, right now" lol.

That's the big thing, BIG fights happen all the time, but even still there is a limit and that limit keeps growing. We'd still be in 2010 without TiDi, that alone makes TiDi a good thing.

Quote:

Everyone else is marvelling at how “as many as it can” keeps increasing and offering bigger and bigger crowds.


I'm one of those Marvellers.

I am somewhat appalled and offended on behalf of ccp that someone is actually suggesting that they are LAZY for providing us a situation that no other game can claim simply because the situation isn't perfect. Are these people crazy? Seriously. \

Someone show me ONE other game like EVE that can put 4000 people in the exact same virtual space and do anything at all.



It's not difficult, just read everyone's defensive posting about "single shard" and "devs wont do all the work; will take too long". You'll start to realize how much of an excuse it looks like since unless they are Devs themselves, they don't really know.

This isn't to say alot of people are not grateful of their work, but people are allowed a certain level of expectation once they spend money on a service.

No matter how "appalled" you can get, once you start making excuses, you are only lying to yourself and shortchanging yourself.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#396 - 2013-08-09 21:04:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Murk Paradox wrote:
CCP is telling the public that it can hold everyone. They are quite literally saying that's what their sandbox is designed for.
[citation needed]
Where have they ever said that?

Quote:
That's **** poor planning to say everyone is one big single place then not allow the population to live there.
…but the population are allowed to live there, and the one big single place has more than enough room for them all. So again, where are they saying something that is contrary to how the game actually works?

Quote:
Because they are starting to reach the end of their promise and soon cannot deliver as they said they could.
Are they? What is this based on, and what did they say that they now cannot deliver on? You keep throwing out these generalities that only ever sound like you've completely misunderstood things, and you never explain where you get those suppositions from.

Quote:
Atleast you admitted to their nature being laziness
Nope. I just misread you. So let's try that one again: of course the devs don't want to change the foundation of the game? Why should they? All they can do (and are doing (and should do)) is support and enable the part of human nature that makes people cram N+1 people into an N-capacity server. Now, with that misunderstanding sorted out, can you answer the actual question? Can you provide any kind of support for your assertions, or are you just complaining about a bunch of strawman arguments you've made up?

Quote:
This isn't to say alot of people are not grateful of their work, but people are allowed a certain level of expectation once they spend money on a service.
You are allowed the expectations of receiving the service as is. That is all. Just because you have unrealistic expectations based on things you've dreamed up but which have never been promised doesn't mean that you're owed more than you get.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#397 - 2013-08-09 21:16:53 UTC
Quote:
No matter how "appalled" you can get, once you start making excuses, you are only lying to yourself and shortchanging yourself.


When you start looking at facts and if you find them inconvenient you call them "excuses" you've already lost all credibility... and the argument.

Time for you to run along.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

baltec1
Bat Country
The Initiative.
#398 - 2013-08-09 21:19:31 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:


Because they are starting to reach the end of their promise and soon cannot deliver as they said they could. Atleast you admitted to their nature being laziness (since that was what I originally said in the comment you quote) about choosing to stay single shard instead of working to revamp their entire platform. I'd rather have it unknown though but meh.


I remember nodes catching fire at 400 man fights.

What makes you think CCP have reached their limit?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#399 - 2013-08-09 21:36:28 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


Because they are starting to reach the end of their promise and soon cannot deliver as they said they could. Atleast you admitted to their nature being laziness (since that was what I originally said in the comment you quote) about choosing to stay single shard instead of working to revamp their entire platform. I'd rather have it unknown though but meh.


I remember nodes catching fire at 400 man fights.

What makes you think CCP have reached their limit?



Server cap limits when trying to enter a system.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#400 - 2013-08-09 21:37:26 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:
No matter how "appalled" you can get, once you start making excuses, you are only lying to yourself and shortchanging yourself.


When you start looking at facts and if you find them inconvenient you call them "excuses" you've already lost all credibility... and the argument.

Time for you to run along.



Facts? Such as server caps? What "facts" are inconvenient? I mean if I'm not in the know yet you are the one to tell me, keep going...

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